103 replies to this topic

[GreyGriffin]

As a clan player, I am really, really tired of seeing the hostility leveled towards my faction of choice. So many people want to party like it's 3025. Frankly, I have expressed my interest in starting in an earlier era, to give the setting some room to breathe before the Clans rush in.

Many people speak from experiences in previous Mechwarrior multiplayer titles, where clantech was just a way of saying "better." Others speak from their experience in the tabletop game, where advantages, to a degree, obsoleted an entire generation of technology. (I disagree if you play in BV balanced matches, but I digress.) Varying degrees of emotional bitterness surround discussions of clan technology, really preventing any meaningful discussion from happening - either from genuine Clanners who have been harassed, ostracized, and marginalized by a community that embraces the Succession Wars era, or from Inner Sphere players who feel like Clanners are just cheating.

Many people suggest that Clan tech should just be better and more expensive. I disagree. An economic solution is a good way to just separate haves and have-nots in a competitive multiplayer action game. In an MMO, the only barrier to money is time.

I suggest, instead, a more elegant solution. Just make clan weapons different.

As an action game, there are a thousand more variables that can be executed than in a tabletop game, simply by the addition of real time. Clan ER Lasers are longer ranged and do more damage? Well, they have a longer recycle rate, as well. An IS Medium Laser can pump out 1 shot per 3 seconds, an IS ER Medium can recycle once per 4, while a clan ER Medium takes 5 seconds to recharge.

Clan Pulse Lasers are the win? Well, now instead of a quick and instantaneous burst of multiple laser shots, you fire a continuous beam that you have to keep trained on your moving, juking target for a precious quarter to half second to net your increased damage.

Clan ER PPCs omgwtfbbq? In exchange for not taking feedback at short range (how I would model PPCs' minimum range is that the firing mech would take the traditional PPC HUD crackle if it's fired point blank), and boosted damage, you get not only increased recycle time, but your projectile is smaller, making it more difficult to score hits.

I think you get the idea.

In addition, I think that the heat curve could definitely use some remodeling in MWO. This could allow Clan weapons to really emphasize their increased heat load, and make those tiny clan DHS a necessity rather than a luxury, and make clan weapons mounted on IS mechs into a real decision - can you spare the crits for heat sinks, or do you want to ride the redline?

Here, in this context of an action simulation, there's a real chance to express balance in a more unique way than just the handful of statistics that make up the Clan armory in the tabletop game. And I think that if we encourage game-building like this, we can get a satisfactory experience for both sides of the Kerensky Cluster.

Edited by GreyGriffin, 13 November 2011 - 03:53 AM.

[Korbyn McColl]

Those ideas could work well. I still like the idea of using unit values, though. Would feel more like the PnP game to me (and before people jump on me for that, I also want it to feel like NM95/MW3/4...and I think they can do both).

[minobu tetsuharu]

The clans being just flat out better is an appealing factor.

I wouldn't mind sacrificing that for gameplay purposes but it will take a lot of the scariness out of the clans when they arrive in 2013 and it doesn't take 1 clanner to be a threat to entire 3025 lance.

[GreyGriffin]

While I agree that there is appeal in asymmetric warfare, I don't think it's practical. When you're designing maps for lance-to-lance or company-to-company engagements, it would be very difficult to account for a force who has more power per 'Mech, especially in the dense urban terrain they are advertising.

While dramatic 1:1 power differences have been done before in action games - Left4Dead being the best example, the game has to be expressly designed with that intent. Tight engineering, level design, and non-deathmatch style objective play are what allow it to work. Now, not to underestimate the capabilities of the MWO team, but I would find it very difficult to balance a 12v5 deathmatch style game - much less create a matchmaking system for it.

[UncleKulikov]

I feel that applying your differences, while also calculating a BV for the adjustments is the way to go.

There would be 2 large categories of matches:
Clan Vs IS, which is one team of all clan mech and tech, and one team of all IS tech and mech. Teams would be balanced by BV.

And

Everybody Vs Everybody where people are organized into teams independent of their faction, based on BV, and they play together.

Basically, BV should be the core balancer, while those differences make clan tech a lot more interesting than "a better large laser" and so on while allowing the devs to gently tweak the balance in new and fun ways.

GIST:
I LIKE IT.

[Kudzu]

GreyGriffin, on 13 November 2011 - 11:43 AM, said:

While I agree that there is appeal in asymmetric warfare, I don't think it's practical. When you're designing maps for lance-to-lance or company-to-company engagements, it would be very difficult to account for a force who has more power per 'Mech, especially in the dense urban terrain they are advertising.

While dramatic 1:1 power differences have been done before in action games - Left4Dead being the best example, the game has to be expressly designed with that intent. Tight engineering, level design, and non-deathmatch style objective play are what allow it to work. Now, not to underestimate the capabilities of the MWO team, but I would find it very difficult to balance a 12v5 deathmatch style game - much less create a matchmaking system for it.

Actually, the clans lose a big part of their advantages in urban settings- namely speed and range.

[Sam Slade]

First thing you want to do is take all of your preconceived notions about the MW/BT universe and bin them. The lore monkies are NOT going to be the target audience here; mainly because there are more people who don't know or care WHY a clan weapon is better, they just care that it IS better.

Also, I doubt very much that every battle will involve Teamspeak and co-ordinating with Lance-mates and such; again because many people will not care. They came to fight in giant robots with awesome lasers and massive guns and stuff. If Clan-tech is better people will grind the hours and hours needed to get it, or they'll spend the cash(real or not) so they can blast everyone else.

This is a game balance issue and should be immidiatly removed from any lore related arguments. Why? No one cares, they just want to be number one.

Edited by Sam Slade, 13 November 2011 - 03:24 PM.

[Riptor]

Sam Slade, on 13 November 2011 - 03:24 PM, said:

First thing you want to do is take all of your preconceived notions about the MW/BT universe and bin them. The lore monkies are NOT going to be the target audience here; mainly because there are more people who don't know or care WHY a clan weapon is better, they just care that it IS better.

Also, I doubt very much that every battle will involve Teamspeak and co-ordinating with Lance-mates and such; again because many people will not care. They came to fight in giant robots with awesome lasers and massive guns and stuff. If Clan-tech is better people will grind the hours and hours needed to get it, or they'll spend the cash(real or not) so they can blast everyone else.

This is a game balance issue and should be immidiatly removed from any lore related arguments. Why? No one cares, they just want to be number one.

This... ten times over.

Each time someone uses the fluff to justify that the clans should be better i cringe because game lore does not survive mmo reality when those two come together.

[Kudzu]

Riptor, on 13 November 2011 - 03:54 PM, said:

This... ten times over.

Each time someone uses the fluff to justify that the clans should be better i cringe because game lore does not survive mmo reality when those two come together.

And yet that same lore has thrived in the original PvP format for nearly 20 years. It's not that hard to balance.

[UncleKulikov]

Sam Slade, on 13 November 2011 - 03:24 PM, said:

First thing you want to do is take all of your preconceived notions about the MW/BT universe and bin them. The lore monkies are NOT going to be the target audience here; mainly because there are more people who don't know or care WHY a clan weapon is better, they just care that it IS better.

Also, I doubt very much that every battle will involve Teamspeak and co-ordinating with Lance-mates and such; again because many people will not care. They came to fight in giant robots with awesome lasers and massive guns and stuff. If Clan-tech is better people will grind the hours and hours needed to get it, or they'll spend the cash(real or not) so they can blast everyone else.

This is a game balance issue and should be immidiatly removed from any lore related arguments. Why? No one cares, they just want to be number one.

Lots of people in WOT utilize teamspeak to win.

Saying that, Clan weapons being better is fine. As long as the balance for both teams takes that into account, namely that better things are more "expensive' to bring onto your team.

[Ratwedge]

Sam Slade, on 13 November 2011 - 03:24 PM, said:

Why? No one cares, they just want to be number one.

Plenty people care, you just choose to ignore them because it gives your argument a leg (lolno, not really lol) so your huff and puff isn't ignored straight off the bat.

[Amechwarrior]

Riptor, on 13 November 2011 - 03:54 PM, said:

Each time someone uses the fluff to justify that the clans should be better i cringe because game lore does not survive mmo reality when those two come together.

Sam Slade, on 13 November 2011 - 03:24 PM, said:

This is a game balance issue and should be immidiatly removed from any lore related arguments. Why? No one cares, they just want to be number one.

Very good point, people will want to win, and win easy. But you can take lore based rules and force players who want to play the Clans to play like the Clans. You do this by making those rules part of the game for Clanners, see near the bottom of the first page in this thread. If you forced a gameplay mechanic that only effects the Clan players and you make these special rules highly visible to all players that these factions must abide by these rules you will discourage the powergamers that want the easy way to winning. Of course this is also in addition to outnumbering them 5 to 12 or something.

Clan vs. IS play must be balanced at a near 50/50 win to loss rate if you want to keep the Clan vs. IS matchmaking populated. If the IS loses too much, the Clan players will have no one in matchmaking, if the Clan players are too outnumbered they will just stick to Clan on Clan games. Unless you give the IS side a massive incentive for going into what will probably be a losing battle (clan salvage if they win) they would not willingly join matches where they are likely to be stomped on over and over. Then you must ask, if the IS gets salvage they cannot get from IS/IS fights, then what will Clan pilots get that makes a Clan/IS fight worth it for a clanner?

This is a valid and hard question to balance. The best thing I can came up with is this. Make Clan on Clan fights effectively worth less for the Clan pilot then going against the freebirth scum. You can fluff it as "You should not be wasting war material in intra-Clan trails, get back to winning the **** war and fight some freebirths!" Make the amount of Honor Points they gain for taking on the IS side greater, they would be outnumbered anyway in these fights. Devaluing Clan on Clan fights is not a perfect idea, but I got nothing else and it works in lore and keeps the Clans focused on fighting the IS, which will give the IS more lucrative Clan salvage.

Binding Honor Rules in game and outnumbering Clan 'mechs allows Clan designs to be fully overpowering, while allowing their ridged rules or war and smaller numbers to be exploited by smart IS forces. This both gives Clan 'mechs a feared reputation and makes them a conquerable enemy at the same time.

Edited by Amechwarrior, 13 November 2011 - 04:10 PM.

[Sam Slade]

I understand what you're saying with the various Clan battle styles and so forth. But to throw a random example; the Kodiak from Clan Ghost Bear(?) is designed as an epic close attack mech in keeping with the clans ethos. If someone discovers an awesome long/mid range fit that balances really well using the Ghost Bear Kodiak as a base then you can bet they will become popular. If the games reaction is to punish you for this (stick) people will get annoyed with the game for not rewarding their perceived success (carrot); why? Because they don't care about Clan ethos; they joined Ghost Bear because it sounded cool or they got a Kodiak because they found this great fit on a forum somewhere.

The same applies to Clan on Clan vs. Clan on IS. You want players to see all carrot no stick; if being a Clan player and going against IS means being outnumbered all the time(stick) people will be annnoyed and will just fight Clan on Clan for less reward(carrot). This will become even more of an issue if there is an xp/c-bill bonus to paying players; never underestimate how much some people will spend.

Best option I can see is to make a salvage store where people can buy clan gear for an inflated price; if I was a game designer I'd be looking at making the players mercs in a wider game world but that's pie in the sky stuff as we don't know yet.

The crux of it is the less stick the better... if you have to beat them into doing something beat them with a carrot.

Edited by Sam Slade, 13 November 2011 - 06:28 PM.

[Amechwarrior]

Sam Slade, on 13 November 2011 - 06:27 PM, said:

The crux of it is the less stick the better... if you have to beat them into doing something beat them with a carrot.

The carrot is the absolutely overwhelming firepower, speed and armor that the players of previous MW games could get for free, no stick attached. You just picked "Daishi" in multiplayer and bam you got one, previous games had no stick.

This is why I said the Clan rules of war should be incredibly visible to everyone. Right now, everyone must be an IS player before a Clan player by virtue of no one can be a Clan player right now. Before you sign up for the Clans you would be forcefully informed that it will be a very different play style from the IS. Clans are not about firepower teamwork, the Honor system would actually encourage general Clan teamwork to ensure that one lone Clan 'mech in a duel does not get jumped by 6 or 7 IS 'mechs at once. The lone Clan player will need his team to designate targets so they can kill them, freeing everyone up for a much more manageable 2-3 IS on 1 Clan, per round of 5 vs 12. The Kodiak player would never learn he would make an awesome team with an Adder, because it will never be an profitable position for either of them to gang up on targets.

If you incentivize honorable play with Honor Points that grant higher rank, access to more 'mechs/tech and take those perks away for dishonorable play then combining firepower will never result in a "victory" for two Clan players because they have effectively lost more honor in the match then gained. Revisit the Clan 101 thread and imagine you started a new Clan character. What in that system would ever make you want to try and combine firepower?

What about new players that join up after the Clans are available? You have a few options, one is make Clans only available after a certain level of IS play, this weeds out the less dedicated who are likely to enjoy the company and good times they have within the IS factions anyway. The stick is forcing them to play the IS side of things to earn the carrot of Clan play. For some of them this stick will become the carrot, as they build teamwork and camaraderie and may rethink their original goals. You could also let anyone join a Clan faction, but have a far more extensive tutorial on how to play, and how to play as Clan rules dictate.

Sam Slade, on 13 November 2011 - 06:27 PM, said:

The same applies to Clan on Clan vs. Clan on IS. You want players to see all carrot no stick...

This is why I called it a hard to balance problem. You would have to heavily increase Honor Points for IS/Clan fights and devalue Clan on Clan. They have an invasion to worry about and intra-Clan fighting is wasteful to the war effort. Make it so their is just so small a carrot for intra-Clan fights that anyone who wants to progress at a good pace(with gamers trends, everyone goes for fast leveling) will want to go for the big carrot of the IS/Clan fights.

All of this does hinge on one thing. You must make a big deal about how Clan play is not advised for new players. Market it like "endgame content" or "legendary mode" the point is, you must get the point across before people select a Clan faction that:

1. They play by different rules that cannot be broken.
2. Other factions do not play by these rules and you will always be outnumbered by them.
3. It is hard to play a clan character and not for everyone, but you do get the best machines in the game.

Information is ammunition.

[Sam Slade]

How many people read EULA's? It's amazing how easy it is to make an Iphone or Android app that gives unqualified access to an individuals location, internet use and credit/shopping history by making it look fun enough. People do this all the time and amke a mint onselling the data to market research firms. The point here is that many(most?) people who are new to the BT universe will skip the 'snore, some old sci-fi bs' stuff to get to the robots.

Making Clan availability something that comes with time is a possibility but it also undermines the social aspet of MMO gameing; remember that many gamer clans spread across games.

Also, as soon as the Clan ideals become well known I'll bet a group called Samurai Pizza Cats or something similer springs up and doesn't care a tinkers cuss for the clan imposed ethos; their priority will be social gameing. They'll happily take the xp/honour hit if it means a few fun games of smashing the living daylights out of a gaggle of IS players through kiteing them with ER weapons for a devestating alpha strike. They know they can grind up the xp/honour again when their friends aren't around. Timezones being what they are, you can be sure these groups are always around. As for me, I'll be one of those players if the model enforcing Clan ethos is in place:

Me: "hahaha, man I lost 100 honour for that".
Samurai Pizza Cat: "100, that's nothing, I lost 400 yesterday"
Me: "400! How?"
S.P.C.: "We fitted out a bunch of Kodiaks with ER PPCs and C/Gauss... smashed a gang of IS noobs cause they thought they'd have time to reposition"
Me: "How many?"
S.P.C:"We bagged 3 Atlas and a mass of useless IS Heavys"
Me: "Nice, I'm gonna go grind a few Honour for my Heat Sink upgrade"
S.P.C.:"Cool, same time on Thursday?"
Me: "Cool"

This is what'll happen. People see more carrot in an uber-stomp then they see stick in an xp hit. You go further and take away something they've unlocked and they stop paying.

Edited by Sam Slade, 13 November 2011 - 07:41 PM.

[Hodo]

GreyGriffin, on 13 November 2011 - 03:51 AM, said:

As a clan player, I am really, really tired of seeing the hostility leveled towards my faction of choice. So many people want to party like it's 3025. Frankly, I have expressed my interest in starting in an earlier era, to give the setting some room to breathe before the Clans rush in.

Many people speak from experiences in previous Mechwarrior multiplayer titles, where clantech was just a way of saying "better." Others speak from their experience in the tabletop game, where advantages, to a degree, obsoleted an entire generation of technology. (I disagree if you play in BV balanced matches, but I digress.) Varying degrees of emotional bitterness surround discussions of clan technology, really preventing any meaningful discussion from happening - either from genuine Clanners who have been harassed, ostracized, and marginalized by a community that embraces the Succession Wars era, or from Inner Sphere players who feel like Clanners are just cheating.

Many people suggest that Clan tech should just be better and more expensive. I disagree. An economic solution is a good way to just separate haves and have-nots in a competitive multiplayer action game. In an MMO, the only barrier to money is time.

I suggest, instead, a more elegant solution. Just make clan weapons different.

As an action game, there are a thousand more variables that can be executed than in a tabletop game, simply by the addition of real time. Clan ER Lasers are longer ranged and do more damage? Well, they have a longer recycle rate, as well. An IS Medium Laser can pump out 1 shot per 3 seconds, an IS ER Medium can recycle once per 4, while a clan ER Medium takes 5 seconds to recharge.
.

According to the S7 ruleset. which the original Mechwarrior, and Multiplayer Battletech:Solaris followed. The clan weapons recycle/charge/reload times are almost identical to the inner sphere versions.

You can really mess with the clan tech much, it was just better than inner sphere tech. This was the nature of the clans. Everything they had was better, their weapons, equipment, repair facilities, space fleets, and training program. The only thing that wasnt better was something that has no affect in a game like this, their life styles. The Caste system is a dated and near useless in the real world, but it works in a game where you dont actually have to do anything other than fight.

I do like what you are trying to suggest, but if you mess with them, the clan purist, you know my polar opposite, will cry about it.

[Amechwarrior]

Sam Slade, on 13 November 2011 - 07:38 PM, said:

How many people read EULA's? It's amazing how easy it is to make an Iphone or Android app that gives unqualified access to an individuals location...

...This is what'll happen. People see more carrot in an uber-stomp then they see stick in an xp hit. You go further and take away something they've unlocked and they stop paying.

I never said it had to be expressed in a big boring Lore equivalent of a EULA, this is such a bad idea it did not even come to mind before I read it in your post. You are thinking about it the wrong way. We come to play games not read books, let them play an example, let them learn it first hand. Make it part of the inherent opening round of training levels every single game has. MWO will have to include training due to its increased complexity over the normal FPS. Make all new first characters go through training, do not let them pick their faction until end of training(this is obvious for so many reasons besides the Clan issue). One segment of training can be "The Clans" and it would show your presumably IS starter character what the rules are and how to exploit them. If you join before the Clans are revealed, then you must simply play through just that extra chapter of training before being eligible to jump ship to the Clans

The point is, make the player play through some kind of short module so they can see for themselves how different it is before they are given the option of choosing to create a Clan character. It can be from the POV of the IS 'mechwarriors as a beginners guide to beating the Clans, or as an extended set of intro levels from the Clan POV.

As for Clan trolling, see this post in the Clans 101 thread, really go there, we have covered most of what you ask for already over there. Any and every game will have its griefers and this will have to be an essential control mechanism to balance. Simply make the rate you lose Honor far, far higher then the amount you gain it. If Honor level is tied to equipment available, you will quickly lose access to all but the second line light 'mechs not capable of griefing. You could also just plain kick players out of the faction for enough consistent grievances.

I envision the Clan factions as the "Hardcore Mode" of the game. The focus is, and should be, the Inner Sphere, and I say that as a Clanner. I see the Clans as an extra, on top of the rich team focused IS play for people who want to have an extra challenge or who love the Lore enough regardless. The Clans are for the "Ranked Matches Only" crowd of FPS and other online games, everything is on the line, you can even get kicked out of the Clan if you do bad enough. You can always go back to the Inner Sphere, which again, should be the main focus of the game. The web address is mwomercs.com not mwoclans.com

[Hodo]

Kudzu, on 13 November 2011 - 03:16 PM, said:

Actually, the clans lose a big part of their advantages in urban settings- namely speed and range.

Not really, they would just re-equip all their mechs with AC20Ultras and LB20X cannons. And its not like the large pulse laser and the ERPPC really changes anything. They still do A LOT of damage in short range or long range. Even the clan LRMs have no minimum, with no real drawbacks. Then there is the Streak SRM2-4-6 packs which again, no drawbacks in a urban environment. Then there is the Elementals... I wont go in to them in the city. If a Nova isnt deployed in a urban environment then you are destined to fail.

[Kudzu]

Hodo, on 13 November 2011 - 09:29 PM, said:

Not really, they would just re-equip all their mechs with AC20Ultras and LB20X cannons. And its not like the large pulse laser and the ERPPC really changes anything. They still do A LOT of damage in short range or long range. Even the clan LRMs have no minimum, with no real drawbacks. Then there is the Streak SRM2-4-6 packs which again, no drawbacks in a urban environment. Then there is the Elementals... I wont go in to them in the city. If a Nova isnt deployed in a urban environment then you are destined to fail.

That's also assuming you know what map you're getting deployed to so that you can make the switch. While the no min range is nice, when you're outnumbered 2 or 3 to 1 you still need time to dish out damage before you start taking it in return, otherwise you get ganged up on quick and die. Sure, you'll take a few guys with you, but it's a loss in the end.

I'd like to see map selection being completely random for regular games and random based on the planet for conquer games. It'll help keep everyone honest, including IS lance construction before the clans are even introduced. Instead of seeing "perfect for the map then switch" lances and stars you'd see a lot more "all comers because we have no idea what we'll run into".

[minobu tetsuharu]

Amechwarrior, on 13 November 2011 - 04:06 PM, said:

Very good point, people will want to win, and win easy. But you can take lore based rules and force players who want to play the Clans to play like the Clans. You do this by making those rules part of the game for Clanners, see near the bottom of the first page in this thread. If you forced a gameplay mechanic that only effects the Clan players and you make these special rules highly visible to all players that these factions must abide by these rules you will discourage the powergamers that want the easy way to winning. Of course this is also in addition to outnumbering them 5 to 12 or something.

Clan vs. IS play must be balanced at a near 50/50 win to loss rate if you want to keep the Clan vs. IS matchmaking populated. If the IS loses too much, the Clan players will have no one in matchmaking, if the Clan players are too outnumbered they will just stick to Clan on Clan games. Unless you give the IS side a massive incentive for going into what will probably be a losing battle (clan salvage if they win) they would not willingly join matches where they are likely to be stomped on over and over. Then you must ask, if the IS gets salvage they cannot get from IS/IS fights, then what will Clan pilots get that makes a Clan/IS fight worth it for a clanner?

This is a valid and hard question to balance. The best thing I can came up with is this. Make Clan on Clan fights effectively worth less for the Clan pilot then going against the freebirth scum. You can fluff it as "You should not be wasting war material in intra-Clan trails, get back to winning the **** war and fight some freebirths!" Make the amount of Honor Points they gain for taking on the IS side greater, they would be outnumbered anyway in these fights. Devaluing Clan on Clan fights is not a perfect idea, but I got nothing else and it works in lore and keeps the Clans focused on fighting the IS, which will give the IS more lucrative Clan salvage.

Binding Honor Rules in game and outnumbering Clan 'mechs allows Clan designs to be fully overpowering, while allowing their ridged rules or war and smaller numbers to be exploited by smart IS forces. This both gives Clan 'mechs a feared reputation and makes them a conquerable enemy at the same time.

But the some of the Clans regarded the innersphere as barbarians and threw out honor rules for any minor infraction.

The only way to force Clanners to underbid their forces is to directly tie their income, salvage rights and leveling progression to their bidding process. Clanners who fight from 3050-3054 at 3 to 1 disadvantage had a slight penalty. Fighting at a 2 to 1 disadvantage from 3055 onward would give the same bonuses as IS players normally against each other.

If the ratio increased the your bonus could quickly go up as high 20% better than normal.
If the ratio decreased the bonus would exponentially drop where even having a 2.5 to 1 disadvantage in 3050 would cut your income and skill progression by 66%.

It could work because if balanced correctly the IS will close the gap sufficiently that any concerns about being reaching the skill cap or having excess money at some point won't be an issue.

But I'm not the one investing money or reputation into building this game so I wouldn't care too much if the devs just took away the tech advantage just to simplify their game design, because this involves a lot of work to get right and to deal with any mistakes made would be expensive.