302 replies to this topic

[FireDog]

The Cat does die of CT hits most all of the time except when the CT's bulls eye hud gets punched out. Aside from making the side torsos larger, can the max amount of CT armor be increased since like a previous poster put it "the center torso box is about five times the size of either of the torso's" ? Linking a torso panel's surface area to the max armor amount seems to be a simple common sense/logical fix. A Cat or Dragon or any mech with an out jutting CT should be able to armor it up with a few more tons.

PS: Thanks, all in all a nice patch. However, the climb nerf still needs to be backed down a notch or two. The taller mech's legs should count for something, especially the man legged mechs. Those knees would give them an advantage going uphill over the bird legged ones.

Edited by FireDog, 20 November 2013 - 11:47 AM.

[Geek Verve]

Kay Wolf, on 20 November 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

Why do they have to make the side torso's easier to hit? It's pretty obvious the center torso box is about five times the size of either of the torso's. You don't have to size up the side torso's, just reduce the center torso. I'm tired of getting cored all the time, no matter what precautions I take. I was in three drops, yesterday, and I was using that torso side-to-side damage avoidance method, which is stupid and shouldn't need to be used for any reason, and I still got cored from weapons hitting the side torso's. EDIT: Oh, and the side torso's were barely touched. Really, guys, you don't know what you're talking about. Don't put down my idea just because you're SCARED about your side torso's being a potential target to be hit. Why would those hit boxes need to be increased at all, to reduce the center torso box? (shakes head and shrugs) You guys need help.

It's got nothing to do with fear. If you make the CT hit box smaller, where is that excess area supposed to be allocated? You can't just have a dead spot that doesn't register damage. It has to go to the side torsos, making them larger and therefore easier to hit.

Your CT has more armor and can take more punishment. If you're getting cored so regularly, I would suggest altering your tactics so you don't spend so much time exposed to direct enemy fire. I've spent a lot of time in my Catapults, and that was one of the first things I learned. It made all the difference. The times when I don't last the entire match, I still typically go down to CT destruction (it *is* a Catapult after all), but now it's just not in the first 3-4 minutes of the match.

[Geek Verve]

FireDog, on 20 November 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

The Cat does die of CT hits most all of the time except when the CT's bulls eye hud gets punched out. Aside from making the side torsos larger, can the max amount of CT armor be increased since like a previous poster put it "the center torso box is about five times the size of either of the torso's" ? Linking a torso panel's surface area to the max armor amount seems to be a simple common sense/logical fix. A Cat or Dragon or any mech with a out jutting CT should be able to armor it up with a few more tons.

The armor capacity isn't related to the area covered. It applies to its density/thickness at any given point (in theory). Each mech wears the heaviest rated armor it can carry for its weight class and engineered design.

What might make more sense would be to break up the center torso into multiple hit boxes (left CT, right CT, top CT, bottom CT). That would at least let you twist to spread the damage around.

Personally, I'm ok with the way it is. Mechs are different. You work around things.

[Threat Doc]

Geek Verve, on 20 November 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

If you make the CT hit box smaller, where is that excess area supposed to be allocated?

WHAT EXCESS AREA?! The hit box is what is excessively sized, I would say far outside what it needs to be, or there would be an equal prospect of getting hit in other locations; presently, there is not. It's not an excess are, it's an excessively sized hit box, it's too big for the 'Mech, and shouldn't be.

Quote

Your CT has more armor and can take more punishment. If you're getting cored so regularly, I would suggest altering your tactics so you don't spend so much time exposed to direct enemy fire.

Tell that to the Lights who love to swarm me every time I open my missile doors.

Quote

...I still typically go down to CT destruction (it *is* a Catapult after all), but now it's just not in the first 3-4 minutes of the match.

I typically don't go down due to direct fire from larger 'Mechs... it's always the lights. WHY would a Catapult, with a flatter glacis, go down MORE to Center Torso destruction than any other 'Mech? Your argument doesn't make any sense at all.

Geek Verve, on 20 November 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

Personally, I'm ok with the way it is. Mechs are different. You work around things.

Y'know what, everyone else ******* and complains about this problem or that problem on their 'Mechs, because sometimes there's not a way to work around things. You fight the machine, you use cover, you use tactics, but when a wolf pack of lights gets on you, you're done if you can't move. For whatever reason, Catapult's go down a lot worse than other 'Mechs, and it's almost also getting cored.

I don't want to hear anything from you so-called superior pilots out there, not about tactics, not about movement, nothing, because I've been playing long enough to learn quite a few things, and I use them, and I still get cored. I thought it was just how I was driving the Cat, and I tried to work around that. I thought it was because I wasn't using cover enough, and I'm still trying to work around that, and my games are getting better, more fun. There is NO reason whatsoever, and being a Catapult is definitely not a reason for why it dies more often from getting cored than any other 'Mech.

The Center Torso hit box needs to be fixed, it needs to be made smaller, or angled better -if that's possible-, to be more in line with other 'Mechs, at least. The Center Torso hit possibilities need to be reduced to about twice the size of either side torso, not as huge as it is.

Enough.

[Cervantes88]

Everyone seems to fail to realize that the only advantage the Spider had was its uncanny resistance. Even so it was a marginally used mech for competitive setups, simply because of how little impact it has on the battlefield : it has a quarter of the firepower of any other light mech !

Before patch it was a broken 3ML~w/e platform. Now it's a 100% legit 3ML~w/e platform made of paper.

Now don't get me wrong, the mech was broken. But it was good (by good I mean better than most other light options) only because of that lol.

The Jenner has one less competitor, which makes for... well the 3L sniper even if it's a bit gimmicky... and... well that's all. GG light mechs.

Also, increasing the ST size ? More weaponless Atlas running around, as if it wasn't happening enough. XL Awesomes just got rekt, not that they were anywhere near good already. The only mech this change might help is the Orion.

The changes to the Pelvis area are very good though. Maybe will it make torso twisting actually useful for the bigger, slower mechs.

[Geek Verve]

Kay Wolf, on 20 November 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

WHAT EXCESS AREA?! The hit box is what is excessively sized, I would say far outside what it needs to be, or there would be an equal prospect of getting hit in other locations; presently, there is not. It's not an excess are, it's an excessively sized hit box, it's too big for the 'Mech, and shouldn't be.

I'm not sure why it's so difficult for you to understand. The CT hit box outlines the area that, when hit, applies damage to the CT. Every pixel of a mech model is included in *some* hit box. If you shrink the hit box on the CT, those pixels no longer included in the CT hit box must be included in another hit box(es), making the other hit box(es) BIGGER.

Maybe you're confused on the difference between a hit box and the actual body part (CT vs. CT hit box). If that's the case, and what you're saying is that you wish they would shrink the CT on the Catapult, well I would just have to say QQ more. The Catapult is fine. There are several mechs with proportionately large CT's (Dragon, Awesome, Stalker). The fact that they are different means they require a bit of a different approach to play them effectively. Mech variation is a good thing, and I'm glad that variation comes in more forms than simply armor count and hard points.

Kay Wolf, on 20 November 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

Tell that to the Lights who love to swarm me every time I open my missile doors.

I typically don't go down due to direct fire from larger 'Mechs... it's always the lights. WHY would a Catapult, with a flatter glacis, go down MORE to Center Torso destruction than any other 'Mech? Your argument doesn't make any sense at all.

I think we're getting to the root of your problem. It would seem that what's chapping your posterior is the fact that it's light mechs killing you, rather than heavier mechs. Last I checked lights carry weapons, too. By their very design they are a nuisance for *all* mechs. There was a time when I was killed by lights all the time, regardless of the mech I was piloting. Sure, it was infuriating. It still happens on occasion (as it should), but rather than complain that my particular mech is somehow broken, I learned to deal with them more effectively.

Pro tip: Lights hate to take damage - especially in the legs. Try including a couple short range weapons on that missile boat to deal with that which so enrages you.

Kay Wolf, on 20 November 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

Y'know what, everyone else ******* and complains about this problem or that problem on their 'Mechs, because sometimes there's not a way to work around things. You fight the machine, you use cover, you use tactics, but when a wolf pack of lights gets on you, you're done if you can't move. For whatever reason, Catapult's go down a lot worse than other 'Mechs, and it's almost also getting cored.

See above. What people complain about are things that their own particular play style has a difficult time dealing with. It's odd that it never occurs to them that, with all the other mechs available, perhaps they should find one that better suits them. I don't have much trouble with my Catapults.

Kay Wolf, on 20 November 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

I don't want to hear anything from you so-called superior pilots out there, not about tactics, not about movement, nothing, because I've been playing long enough to learn quite a few things, and I use them, and I still get cored. I thought it was just how I was driving the Cat, and I tried to work around that. I thought it was because I wasn't using cover enough, and I'm still trying to work around that, and my games are getting better, more fun. There is NO reason whatsoever, and being a Catapult is definitely not a reason for why it dies more often from getting cored than any other 'Mech.

I'm by no means a superior pilot, which is a large part of the reason I'm having trouble understanding how this is such an insurmountable issue for you. My K2 is one of my favorite mechs, and I really enjoy the Jester a lot as well. The biggest reason I bought the Jester was the fact that it is basically a different take on the K2. They're not my highest-scoring mechs, but every mech can't be. Just like every mech can't be the same where their strengths and weaknesses are concerned. That would be ridiculous and boring.

Kay Wolf, on 20 November 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

The Center Torso hit box needs to be fixed, it needs to be made smaller, or angled better -if that's possible-, to be more in line with other 'Mechs, at least. The Center Torso hit possibilities need to be reduced to about twice the size of either side torso, not as huge as it is.

I say it's fine, and that perhaps you should just play a different mech that doesn't aggravate you so.

Honestly, why do you continue to play a mech that you find so irritating??

Edited by Geek Verve, 21 November 2013 - 09:01 AM.

[Threat Doc]

Bad Geek!

Geek Verve, on 21 November 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

I'm not sure why it's so difficult for you to understand.

I'm not so sure what's so hard for you to understand either? I'll try and use small words so you'll understand...

If Center Torso only one-point-five times Right and/or Left Torso, hit box should only be one-point-five times Right and/or Left Torso, not five times.

You understand, Kimosabe? Those words small enough for you?

Quote

I think we're getting to the root of your problem. It would seem that what's chapping your posterior is the fact that it's light mechs killing you, rather than heavier mechs. Last I checked lights carry weapons, too. By their very design they are a nuisance for *all* mechs.

By their very design in THIS game, not in BattleTech. They move too fast, they're too maneuverable at-speed -last I checked if you had twenty tons suspended in the air by two spindly legs weighing only ten tons total, they should go over flat on their face every single time they go to make a high-speed maneuver such as the ones I see in-game all the time. Light 'Mechs are there for combat with other Light 'Mechs, not with Assaults, who should be able to swat them like flies. Light 'Mechs against heavier opponents are supposed to be there for Scouting purposes only.

I will not answer you, any more, because you enjoy arguing inanely stupid points, and I do not. Have a nice day!

[Geek Verve]

Kay Wolf, on 21 November 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

I'm not so sure what's so hard for you to understand either? I'll try and use small words so you'll understand...

If Center Torso only one-point-five times Right and/or Left Torso, hit box should only be one-point-five times Right and/or Left Torso, not five times.

You understand, Kimosabe? Those words small enough for you?

Look at it. The hit box for the center torso is exactly the same proportional size relative to the hit boxes for the side torsos as the center torso is to the side torsos. The two proportions *cannot* be different. Without having a gap between the hit boxes, it's just not possible.

Maybe you need pictures.

This is what it is like now (hit box edges are consistent with the edges of the chassis sections)...


This is what you are suggesting (as far as I can tell - you've repeatedly mentioned shrinking the CT hit box)...


That gap has to be applied to *some* other hit box. The only way to accomplish what you're wanting is to shrink the actual size of the center torso (and thereby shrinking its hit box) - changing the look of the model. I think that would be a bad idea. It would just look too different from the conventional MechWarrior Catapult. You're aware there were several MechWarrior games prior to this one, right?

Kay Wolf, on 21 November 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

By their very design in THIS game, not in BattleTech. They move too fast, they're too maneuverable at-speed -last I checked if you had twenty tons suspended in the air by two spindly legs weighing only ten tons total, they should go over flat on their face every single time they go to make a high-speed maneuver such as the ones I see in-game all the time. Light 'Mechs are there for combat with other Light 'Mechs, not with Assaults, who should be able to swat them like flies. Light 'Mechs against heavier opponents are supposed to be there for Scouting purposes only.

I never played BT, so I can't comment on that. However, as you said yourself, this ain't it. How can you presume to try and dictate how they're supposed to be used? Regardless, yes, 20-tons of mech on 10-tons of legs would be quite doable even with high maneuverability (this is set in 3050 or so, after all). Ever heard of gyros and servo controller programming? Ever seen a robot climb stairs? I'm sure in 1037 years, they'll be pretty capable.

Kay Wolf, on 21 November 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

I will not answer you, any more, because you enjoy arguing inanely stupid points, and I do not. Have a nice day!

I'd say what's "inanely stupid" is the notion that the hit box can be shrunk without expanding the hit boxes on the side torsos, but what do I know. What I *do* know is that there are a *lot* of people piloting Catapults quite effectively. I do pretty well with mine, if I do say so, myself, and I'm by no means one of the more highly-skilled players.

Hope the rudimentary pictures helped.

Edited by Geek Verve, 21 November 2013 - 05:58 PM.

[carl kerensky]

Solkar, on 20 November 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

Calling screen shake bad almost made me laugh and choke on my breakfast.

Go ask a real life military driver or pilot who has seen combat if they feel any shaking when their vehicle gets hit with anything. Screen shake is immersive. Heck, in reality it should be worse for smaller mechs, but it is probably ok that it isn't because they are half dead once they take a big hit like that anyhow.

Absolutely this. How far to we have to go to appease these arcade junkies. The twitch mongers. Any reduction of Shake , module or otherwise is another ridiculous notion of bleeding the sim elements out of what was a great mech experience in closed beta. Flat and uninspiring is what you will be left with. Mech assault heaven. No thanks. I will wait for another dev. To actually grasp this notion and rebuild Mechwarrior as it should be. Unless if course PGI comes to its senses and follows the path they originally intended.
Ck

[DirePhoenix]

Geek Verve, on 21 November 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

Ever seen a robot climb stairs? I'm sure in 1037 years, they'll be pretty capable.

ED-209 is SAD-209

[Geek Verve]

DirePhoenix, on 21 November 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

ED-209 is SAD-209

Lol!

Behold! The progenitor of our beloved Atlas!

[Rhialto]

Quick question, the Premium we have been gifted because of huge download, is it always available or is there an expiration date? I'm just trying to find when I will have enough time to make the best use of it. It would suck activating it and only play 1 hour.

[StonedDead]

Kay Wolf, on 20 November 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

Why do they have to make the side torso's easier to hit? It's pretty obvious the center torso box is about five times the size of either of the torso's. You don't have to size up the side torso's, just reduce the center torso. I'm tired of getting cored all the time, no matter what precautions I take. I was in three drops, yesterday, and I was using that torso side-to-side damage avoidance method, which is stupid and shouldn't need to be used for any reason, and I still got cored from weapons hitting the side torso's. EDIT: Oh, and the side torso's were barely touched. Really, guys, you don't know what you're talking about. Don't put down my idea just because you're SCARED about your side torso's being a potential target to be hit. Why would those hit boxes need to be increased at all, to reduce the center torso box? (shakes head and shrugs) You guys need help.

Not scared of it, it's just a bad idea. Will make the mech very much more vulnerable and destroyed much easier. Keep in mind, the bulk of your firepower is in the arms and side torso on that mech. By reducing the CT, you MUST increase the ST or destroy the mech model. The CT soaking up the damage allows your mech to retain it's offensive capabilities for longer than other mechs(there are a few) which are notorious for losing their ST's.

Also, stating that torso movement to spread damage shouldn't need to be done is ridiculous. If you want your mech to remain effective, ANY mech, you should twist. It spreads the damage out so that you don't get any one component focused more than the others increasing your over-all survivability.

To your statement about being swarmed by lights and killed. They do that. Lights shouldn't be a problem if they are alone. In packs, even assault mechs should fear them. That is a lot of highly mobile weapons circling them, very hard to hit, and multiple targets will usually overwhelm a single mech of any kind. If you are having trouble with light mechs, stick closer to a group. You are more likely to get more locks and have a shorter flight time for your missiles. Second, get on a team that will cover their support mechs. If you have a team, and they won't cover you, they are not much of a team.

Edit: It's pretty much a design fault in the mech it's self since the first design(not just PGI's concept). Anything with a protruding CT is going to get CT'd faster than most, deal with it.

Rhialto, on 22 November 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

Quick question, the Premium we have been gifted because of huge download, is it always available or is there an expiration date? I'm just trying to find when I will have enough time to make the best use of it. It would suck activating it and only play 1 hour.

I don't think there is an expiration date. I saved my free valentines day premium for over 6 months.

Edited by Zekester81, 22 November 2013 - 04:46 PM.

[CorranHorn]

So far I have really been enjoying this patch. I just started piloting a Spider two days ago. I can tell the difference, but it does not hurt my game play so far at least. I am also really liking the Counter ECM rewards, makes using that just that much nicer, now if people would shoot at those targets more often. Overall I do not have any real complaints with it, but I do not pilot all mechs so that might change depending on the mech.

[Morang]

"Fire selected weapon group" brought me back (I haven't been there since its removal). Disappoint about no new map (already announced on the front page as background for Jester) though. Raider "camo" is strange, reshuffling the cockpit items is questionable, working on hitboxes is commendable, Shadow Hawk release is as planned.

Not bad.

[Geek Verve]

Morang, on 23 November 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

"Fire selected weapon group" brought me back (I haven't been there since its removal).

Can someone please enlighten me on why there was so much angst about that change? Can't the problem be solved by simply setting your "selected" weapon group to group #1 and using Mouse 1 for it as usual? What am I missing? Do people often change their "selected" weapon group mid-match or something?

[Heffay]

Geek Verve, on 23 November 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

Can someone please enlighten me on why there was so much angst about that change?

For people with disabilities, it really caused a lot of issues.

[Morang]

Geek Verve, on 23 November 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

Can someone please enlighten me on why there was so much angst about that change? Can't the problem be solved by simply setting your "selected" weapon group to group #1 and using Mouse 1 for it as usual? What am I missing? Do people often change their "selected" weapon group mid-match or something?

My opinion is written here. Of course I do change selected weapon group mid-match when needed, quite often on some builds, I use mouse wheel to scroll through groups. For example, on my current Locust-3M I start engagement with 2xMLs, then I do Alpha Strikes as I close the range and then I switch to 3xSLs when I overheat with occasional Alphas when possible. "Selected" group switches from MLs to SLs in process, only the Alpha Strike is the separate key. Another example is my Commando-3A: I select SRM group when I make SRM runs against heavy targets (and then I add Alpha strike, discharging lasers just after SRMs have fired, because SRMs do primary damage and it's more important to hit with them first, with correct lead). When I engage light mech, lasers become selected group for constant burning, with occasional Alpha when I feel I have a chance to hit with SRMs. Why don't I use different keys for different weapon groups much? Because my left hand is too busy piloting and my right hand is most accurate when shooting with trigger finger, LMB.

Edited by Morang, 23 November 2013 - 11:45 PM.

[Geek Verve]

Heffay, on 23 November 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

For people with disabilities, it really caused a lot of issues.

I hadn't considered that. 'Nuf said. Thanks.

[SIERRA 116]

Now, I get cored in my Cataphracts pretty damn often. Either a case of bad hitboxes, or I'm a ****** player. Based on my past experiences, it would be the latter.