275 replies to this topic

[Corvus Antaka]

I'll be doing an interview on Kong soon that will explain more about the blueprints and the economic design of Heavy Gear Assault.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 21 January 2015 - 12:20 PM.

[Heffay]

Strum Wealh, on 21 January 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

As for your (that is, Heffay's) notion of "an active player base of less than 80 people":

• Where/when (with link) does that number come from?
  
• What do you expect from a game that is still in it's pre-release testing phase?

1) http://heavygear.com/leaderboard
2) The very first round of MWO closed beta regularly had over 200 people playing concurrently. That was by invite only though, as opposed to HGA opening up the door to anyone who buys a package. Different roadblocks in each case(pay money vs get invite).

You can see the names of everyone who has played the alpha, along with the number of matches they've played. And I probably shouldn't say *active*, since it's possible that a number of them no longer play for various reasons.

Quote

items that would actually have a tangible effect on gameplay ("a server pack, a gun, a Gear, a blueprint, a NPC", and so on) are intended to be acquirable via in-game currency (that is, TEC) in addition to cash purchases.

Yes, you can buy these in-game items via TEC by buying them from *other players* who have the blueprints. At least in regards to gear.

The devil is in the details, isn't it?

I won't even get into the TV "matchmaking" system and how bad of an idea that is.

Nevertheless, I'll probably buy an alpha package just to give the game a try. A robust game environment is good for everyone. A rising tide lifts all boats (except those sunk at the pier like Hawken).

[Heffay]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 21 January 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

I'll be doing an interview on Kong soon that will explain more about the blueprints and the economic design of Heavy Gear Assault.

So, is this game being funded by Canadian tax dollars, from some sort of new business funding pool? Is that a question you will be answering?

Are you an employee of Mektek, or just a volunteer admin?

[Wolf486]

CHA-ink.....did you hear Heffays armor?

Edited by Wolf486, 21 January 2015 - 05:48 PM.

[Heffay]

Wolf486, on 21 January 2015 - 05:47 PM, said:

CHA-ink.....did you hear Heffays armor?

Like I said, aside from their questionable choices for picking board admins, I hope they become a huge success. It's a big risk starting on a new project, and a lot of people's careers are on the line. Hopefully they'll attempt to build success based on delivering a great game with compelling gameplay, and less on trying to tear down the competition by supporting people like you.

You and Pada are the biggest detriments to HGA so far. Maybe you should read a page from the playbook on how Chris Roberts and David Braben support each other, instead of constantly shitposting about MWO in an attempt to bolster HGA.

[Strum Wealh]

Heffay, on 21 January 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

I won't even get into the TV "matchmaking" system and how bad of an idea that is.

Actually, I am quite curious as to precisely why you think a TV-influenced matchmaker (as outlined by Wildcard in the quoted/linked posts) is such a bad thing, and what you would propose in its stead & why you believe the proposed alternative is superior.

[Heffay]

Strum Wealh, on 21 January 2015 - 07:37 PM, said:

Actually, I am quite curious as to precisely why you think a TV-influenced matchmaker (as outlined by Wildcard in the quoted/linked posts) is such a bad thing, and what you would propose in its stead & why you believe the proposed alternative is superior.

It's a high maintenance, low value method of balancing objects that was cutting edge 25 years ago, but is hopelessly outdated today. It's ripe for exploitation, promotes meta behavior with no consequences, and the quality of matches is based strictly on a random factor. No modern game with any serious competitive drive uses this, and instead they ALL rely on some sort of Elo based algorithm. You should get matched against your peers, not random people who can be 3 standard deviations away from your own abilities.

[Anjian]

Heffay, on 21 January 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

The specifics are a bit different than how you're describing it. There will be blueprints available for sale that will most likely provide a competitive advantage, but in theory you can get the results of that blueprint by buying it with in-game money from another player. That's how they are getting around a pure P2W conflict, but the implementation is going to be sketchy. If you get a nice new rare blueprint and people will want to buy your upgrade, but if there is a tournament coming up, you might want to retain the competitive advantage and wait for it to be over before selling the parts. It'll be interesting to see the exact implementation they develop.

They are also using a Threat Value for match creation instead of any sort of matchmaking. No idea how this will play out, but it sounds like a balancing nightmare. Are TVs tied to the mechs? Do they apply to each item on the mech? How do you account for synergy of a weapon on a particular chassis, when it's clearly underpowered in some cases? And *every* time something new is released, the *whole* catalog of chassis and parts will have to be refactored.

They are also going to be playing the "pay for convenience" route. Probably some sort of Premium time, much like every other game out there has.

Hopefully they'll get some traction for this tournament though, because with an active player base of less than 80 people, it's not exactly setting the gaming world on fire.

Threat Value is something traditional to Heavy Gear. Heavy Gear 1 and Heavy Gear 2 had Threat Value systems.

Some mechs have higher or lower TVs. TVs can be adjusted within a mech as well, given that some weapons have higher TVs, and some lower. You can lower or raise the TV of your mech by its configuration: choosing the kind and number of weapons, the amount of armor you put on it, certain features etc,. This is what I at least remembered from Heavy Gear 2.

So if you deck out your assault with a big bazooka, mortars on the back, rockets on the shoulders, the TV will be quite high. If said assault is only holding a hand held gun and nothing else, the TV will be lower. Now for a given TV, the basic or light might be able to use more weapons to get the same TV as an assault with less weapons.

I remember during the days of HG2, when we go online, we sometimes set low TV games, so you can force people to just use basic mechs and a handheld gun, or maybe just one shoulder mounted autocannon. But we also have unlimited TV, so the assault mechs comes in with all the works (and die very quickly too).

I for one thinks the TV system as it was implemented then, was brilliant.

[Wolf486]

Heffay, on 21 January 2015 - 07:52 PM, said:

It's a high maintenance, low value method of balancing objects that was cutting edge 25 years ago, but is hopelessly outdated today. It's ripe for exploitation, promotes meta behavior with no consequences, and the quality of matches is based strictly on a random factor. No modern game with any serious competitive drive uses this, and instead they ALL rely on some sort of Elo based algorithm. You should get matched against your peers, not random people who can be 3 standard deviations away from your own abilities.

Yeah cause Elo is working out good for MWO. 12-0 stomps isn't working.

[Heffay]

Wolf486, on 21 January 2015 - 08:19 PM, said:

Yeah cause Elo is working out good for MWO. 12-0 stomps isn't working.

Then you don't understand Elo. TVs will lead to even more one sided stomps in the long run, because a 900 Elo pilot in a Dire Whale is still lunch to a 2200 Elo Jenner pilot.

[Heffay]

Anjian, on 21 January 2015 - 08:19 PM, said:

Threat Value is something traditional to Heavy Gear. Heavy Gear 1 and Heavy Gear 2 had Threat Value systems.

Some mechs have higher or lower TVs. TVs can be adjusted within a mech as well, given that some weapons have higher TVs, and some lower. You can lower or raise the TV of your mech by its configuration: choosing the kind and number of weapons, the amount of armor you put on it, certain features etc,. This is what I at least remembered from Heavy Gear 2.

So if you deck out your assault with a big bazooka, mortars on the back, rockets on the shoulders, the TV will be quite high. If said assault is only holding a hand held gun and nothing else, the TV will be lower. Now for a given TV, the basic or light might be able to use more weapons to get the same TV as an assault with less weapons.

I remember during the days of HG2, when we go online, we sometimes set low TV games, so you can force people to just use basic mechs and a handheld gun, or maybe just one shoulder mounted autocannon. But we also have unlimited TV, so the assault mechs comes in with all the works (and die very quickly too).

I for one thinks the TV system as it was implemented then, was brilliant.

Battletech has a BV system that is essentially the same. And it suffers from the exact same problems. It's incredibly easy to game. The meta will shift to low TV builds that have incredible synergy. And that can't be fixed then, because if you muck with the TV of any individual component, it'll ruin ALL the other builds that use one of the components.

Almost all modern competitive games who rely on matchmaking based around skill, not gear. LoL, DOTA, WoW, SC... I haven't seen anything about HGA having some sort of player ranking system. They really need one.

[Dino Might]

As an old HG2 hand, I can tell you that the threat value (TV) system actually worked very well. There was no online matchmaker. You joined the lobbies you wanted to join, and people created their matches with TV restrictions and loadout restrictions. In the comp scene, we usually played low TV gears - 1k and 5k were the most popular, and those gears really required some modification and balancing of perks and deficiencies to make something useful. Half the fun was in finding new builds that worked well, because the perk and attribute system had a lot of interdependencies.

If there are enough players to implement a matchmaker, then they could run lobbies for particular TV levels, and you join the TV lobby you desire. Then the matchmaker tries as best it can to match up equally skilled opponents based on stats. Personally, I'd rather they stick with the old method of user created matches with customizable restrictions (e.g., in HG2, no guided weapons was a big one, given the ridiculous power of guided mortars).

With the TV system in HG2, there was no "boating," and frequently, you only carried one weapon because you couldn't afford to bring another.

For those that remember: 1k TV - VHAC, Fire Control 2 on a Cheetah anyone?

[Wolf486]

Since I'm new to the HG scene I'm really enjoying all the feedback I see in this thread about the TV system! Thank you all you HG fans and I hope to see you guys in the Arena on Terra Nova! We could use some more HG fans in the Alpha so I hope you'll stop by and check out HGA! MekTek is really trying to erase the stigma others have created in the Mecha genre and the community at HGA is really hyped about what they're doing!

[Wolf486]

mogs01gt, on 21 January 2015 - 07:51 AM, said:

So you have to pay first just to download the game? **** that!

It's a new old thing called buying the product! OMG kinda like when us old timers use to actually go to a store, walk in, use paper money and pay for a game in a box!! I started when they were on disc but many others started when they were on 5.25" floppy!! Holy cow!! Now MekTek is actually charging you a one time price to buy the game outright!! No need to pay real moneys for anything else after you buy the game....gasp....you pay once!! OMG!!!!!!

MIND BLOWN!!

[Heffay]

Wolf486, on 22 January 2015 - 06:34 AM, said:

It's a new old thing called buying the product! OMG kinda like when us old timers use to actually go to a store, walk in, use paper money and pay for a game in a box!! I started when they were on disc but many others started when they were on 5.25" floppy!! Holy cow!! Now MekTek is actually charging you a one time price to buy the game outright!! No need to pay real moneys for anything else after you buy the game....gasp....you pay once!! OMG!!!!!!

MIND BLOWN!!

Heck, MWO does it even better: You can play the game and you never even need to pay at all!

[Heffay]

Wolf486, on 22 January 2015 - 06:23 AM, said:

MekTek is really trying to erase the stigma others have created in the Mecha genre

See, this is why it's hard to get behind HGA. It's not the game, it's the community. Maybe you should stop trying to promote HGA by ******** on MWO. It's not a compelling selling point to say "Hey, we're not MWO!" Because the Island is practically empty and you're catering to an ever shrinking base of people on the Island, while at the same time creating a bitter taste for people who actually enjoy MWO and aren't full of mock outrage.

[Heffay]

Dino Might, on 22 January 2015 - 05:51 AM, said:

As an old HG2 hand, I can tell you that the threat value (TV) system actually worked very well. There was no online matchmaker. You joined the lobbies you wanted to join, and people created their matches with TV restrictions and loadout restrictions. In the comp scene, we usually played low TV gears - 1k and 5k were the most popular, and those gears really required some modification and balancing of perks and deficiencies to make something useful. Half the fun was in finding new builds that worked well, because the perk and attribute system had a lot of interdependencies.

If there are enough players to implement a matchmaker, then they could run lobbies for particular TV levels, and you join the TV lobby you desire. Then the matchmaker tries as best it can to match up equally skilled opponents based on stats. Personally, I'd rather they stick with the old method of user created matches with customizable restrictions (e.g., in HG2, no guided weapons was a big one, given the ridiculous power of guided mortars).

With the TV system in HG2, there was no "boating," and frequently, you only carried one weapon because you couldn't afford to bring another.

Well, TV may be a good interim solution. Depending on the size of the playerbase, Elo may not be a viable solution.

TV will tend to be extremely brutal for new players as they get into lobbies with seasoned veterans, but it may also be the only solution they have available to them at this time. Hopefully before they release though they'll have plans for a viable ranking system, since if they are catering to the E-sport crowd, it's going to be essential.

[Wolf486]

Heffay, on 22 January 2015 - 06:37 AM, said:

Heck, MWO does it even better: You can play the game and you never even need to pay at all!

Yeah and grind grind grind your life away, good one there Heffay, lol. The way HGA is doing it you buy a game pack, get your stuff and jump into battles without being out matched with inferior equipment against massively imbalanced leveled up stuff. Yes your lack of experience and skill might hurt you, but not the equipment.

Heffay, on 22 January 2015 - 06:43 AM, said:

See, this is why it's hard to get behind HGA. It's not the game, it's the community. Maybe you should stop trying to promote HGA by ******** on MWO. It's not a compelling selling point to say "Hey, we're not MWO!" Because the Island is practically empty and you're catering to an ever shrinking base of people on the Island, while at the same time creating a bitter taste for people who actually enjoy MWO and aren't full of mock outrage.

I didn't point the finger directly at anyone with that reference Heffay but if you'd like to then ok you can point it back on MWO. Actually I wasn't referring just to MWO with that statement as Hawken and MechWarrior Tactics have also come up in conversations with many many people outside of this forum in regards to how all of them have handled community and business practices in the past and how it's put them off of the entire genre and Alpha in general. So now there's and up hill battle our community has to fight to show that MekTek is doing things differently. People just assume that MekTek is doing the same thing others in the genre have done but MekTek has taken a different approach. Rather then charging you for alpha access and making the game free to play which has become toxic, HGA is charging you for a game pack just like Star Citizen does and giving you Alpha access. This seems to be a better way to do it in my opinion since I'm old school and would rather buy it then grind it. So many people were put off by the Free to play thing that HGA switched and decided that a better way would be Buy to Play, which is something I want in all games. I'd rather not do Free to Play because of the never ending grind to make in game money, buy new stuff to keep up, grind for equipment again to keep up. Sure there's going to be an economy in HGA and you will need to make TEC (in game money) to buy stuff you need but You can be competitive with a starter pack as the game is using Threat Value and not Elo which has been less then reliable in match making. Basically yes "Hey we're not MWO"..or Hawken...or Mechwarrior Tactics. They're MekTek and Heavy Gear Assault!

As for your comment about the Island, that was Russ putting people there...not MekTek...we don't have Islands, although that might make a good map for HGA. I hope this helps you and others with some misconceptions.

Edited by Wolf486, 22 January 2015 - 07:42 AM.

[Heffay]

Wolf486, on 22 January 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

Yeah and grind grind grind your life away, good one there Heffay, lol. The way HGA is doing it you buy a game pack, get your stuff and jump into battles without being out matched with inferior equipment against massively imbalanced leveled up stuff. Yes your lack of experience and skill might hurt you, but not the equipment.



I didn't point the finger directly at anyone with that reference Heffay but if you'd like to then ok you can point it back on MWO. Actually I wasn't referring just to MWO with that statement as Hawken and MechWarrior Tactics have also come up in conversations with many many people outside of this forum in regards to how all of them have handled community and business practices in the past and how it's put them off of the entire genre and Alpha in general. So now there's and up hill battle our community has to fight to show that MekTek is doing things differently. People just assume that MekTek is doing the same thing others in the genre have done but MekTek has taken a different approach. Rather then charging you for alpha access and making the game free to play which has become toxic, HGA is charging you for a game pack just like Star Citizen does and giving you Alpha access. This seems to be a better way to do it in my opinion since I'm old school and would rather buy it then grind it. So many people were put off by the Free to play thing that HGA switched and decided that a better way would be Buy to Play, which is something I want in all games. I'd rather not do Free to Play because of the never ending grind to make in game money, buy new stuff to keep up, grind for equipment again to keep up. Sure there's going to be an economy in HGA and you will need to make TEC (in game money) to buy stuff you need but You can be competitive with a starter pack as the game is using Threat Value and not Elo which has been less then reliable in match making. Basically yes "Hey we're not MWO"..or Hawken...or Mechwarrior Tactics. They're MekTek and Heavy Gear Assault!

You really think you're fooling anyone, Werewolf486? Your history of posting on MWO even today across various forums isn't a secret.

And there will be a grind in HGA as well. You don't buy the game and then have access to every piece of equipment right out of the gate. You have to spend TEC to get upgrades, and they've already stated in big red letters that pay for convenience *will* be a thing in HGA.

Keep putting down MWO and PGI. That will really help sell HGA...

Here's a link to their store:

http://heavygear.com/store

You're telling me that if you buy the game, you can either buy the Riley M202 20mm Very Light Autocannon for $0.95, or get it instantly for free?

Edited by Heffay, 22 January 2015 - 07:59 AM.

[Dino Might]

The one thing putting me off from this game is the grind/pay aspect - I have done it in MWO already to a level where its not an issue for me anymore. I just don't know if I want to do that in another game, especially if I'm not sure it will be around 2 years from now. MW has a solid core of fans. HG series is even more niche, and I'm not sure how long HGA will last. The part I like least about the grinding is that there is a significant disparity between new players and veteran players, because of the inevitable pricing scheme being based on a weapons power/usefulness, which ends up effectively halting the influx of new players after the initial release. Nobody will join 2 years later if they have to grind against fully kitted/mastered gears that completely dominate them over and over. Right now, it's almost the same way with mechs, and I am willing to bet that the number of MWO players joining and staying has dwindled significantly. I would prefer some way to make entry level mechs on par with the fully mastered ones - make the differences much smaller between no pilot skills and fully skilled (i.e., eliminate the 2x bonus), reduce the effect of modules, etc.

I'm also very worried about the play style that will result from persistent stat tracking. I think that was the worst thing to ever happen in online gaming. HG2 was fantastic because you could play an arena death match game and you endlessly respawned until time ran out - then the match stats were displayed at the end of the match. Once you exit, poof, gone. It made the combat fun and frantic for everyone, even the new guy getting hammered, because after he died 1 or 2 times to the same guy, he had weakened his opponent enough to wipe him out on the next respawn. At the end of the match, he'd still have racked up some solid kills, so everyone ended up feeling like they had an impact on the match.

I hope they add capture the flag mode as well. CTF was the best for competition - can't tell you how many times I played Karaq Wastes

Lastly, the damage system on HG2 was amazing. Losing sensors, torso twist ability, and other features of how you moved, aimed, etc. was really cool. It added great variability and depth to the combat.