216 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

I dont mind jump sniping atm, Its hard to get it right with the screen shake and its not nearly as game breaking as it used to be. I would advise caution. Leave jjs the way they are for now and reevaluate at a later date should they become problematic again.

[Mercules]

IV Amen, on 19 November 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Feel free to set up a scrim with your 1ML SHS drop deck against a 1 JJ DHS company... Quite funny post tho, funny guy

As a matter of fact I have several effective mechs with 1 ML. Now they might have other weapons, but they have one ML "for backup".


1 JJ shouldn't give as much mobility as it does. 3+ should do more though. It's better but not by much. They simply need to fade the reticule shake instead of cutting it off directly and it would not be so bad. As it is you can Jump-pause-shoot-hit jets to land softer.

[Mystere]

Cpt Leprechaun, on 20 November 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

The JJ was a buff with the unintended consequence of poptarting.

Obviously many people disagree, but, I personally see poptarting as a perfectly legitimate tactic. Besides, JJs are a feature, not a buff.

Cpt Leprechaun, on 20 November 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

"JJs already have a major drawback: You can be shot out of the sky."

That was mainly an attempt at humor. I guess it failed.

Cpt Leprechaun, on 20 November 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

this could be modified to make it so only high-caliber weapons cant be fired in the air(PPC/ERPPC/AC5/UAC5/AC10/LBX10/AC20) there you go now light mechs can make use of the "third dimension".

This kills my extremely annoying but also extremely effective (ER)PPC-equipped Spiders specifically designed to find, tag, and disrupt -- from a safe distance -- enemy formations under an ECM umbrella. It's much easier to just jump really high and shoot a DDC with a PPC than to type "DDC providing cover to 1 Stalker, 2 Jags, and 1 Phract at G5" while at the same time trying to fend off a Jenner hot on my tail.

Edited by Mystere, 20 November 2013 - 09:21 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

The only drawback that needs to be made is how quickly you can turn using JJs. The reason that the Highlander is the king of the battlefield isn't just because of its hit boxes or weapons loadout. That it can use minimal JJs to be able to turn and keep an angle of fire makes it monstrously difficult to out move.

[Mercules]

Trauglodyte, on 20 November 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

That it can use minimal JJs to be able to turn and keep an angle of fire makes it monstrously difficult to out move.

JJs offer tactical maneuverability? Imagine that.

[Trauglodyte]

Mercules, on 20 November 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

JJs offer tactical maneuverability? Imagine that.

I'm not arguing that. But a 95 ton mech using one jump jet shouldn't be able to keep its target in front of it at all times. There should be some loss of turning based on the make of the JJ and/or the number equipped.

[Mercules]

Trauglodyte, on 20 November 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

I'm not arguing that. But a 95 ton mech using one jump jet shouldn't be able to keep its target in front of it at all times. There should be some loss of turning based on the make of the JJ and/or the number equipped.

I completely agree, thus why I said earlier in the post.

Mercules, on 20 November 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

1 JJ shouldn't give as much mobility as it does. 3+ should do more though.

[Trauglodyte]

Mercules, on 20 November 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

I completely agree, thus why I said earlier in the post.

I kind of skipped everything after the first 3 or 4 posts

[MustrumRidcully]

Regarding the table top vs MW:O poptarting thing:
If the table top rules would have allowed a jumping mech to treat cover differently when shooting (because he jumped over any sight obstacles), then I am sure poptarting would have been popular in the game, too.

The rules didn't allow this kind of benefit, however. Now, the question is if it's good for a real time based battletech inspired game to allow it, or what kind of penalties that should bring?

I think you decide based on how the game plays. If there is too much poptarting overall, I think you have a problem, because it doesn't fit the original game much, and feels wrong. But that doesn'T mean you have to make it impossible.

[Curccu]

Bront, on 19 November 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

It's possible they need to adjust JJ's vertical lift so 1 JJ isn't as effective as it is. I've heard rumors that there was an error where a single JJ was as effective as full JJs, but I have not seen any evidence of this myself.

Well yeah that rumor WAS true long long time ago...

[St4LkeRxF]

Jager mech pilot in the open gound complain

[Mercules]

MustrumRidcully, on 20 November 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

The rules didn't allow this kind of benefit, however. Now, the question is if it's good for a real time based battletech inspired game to allow it, or what kind of penalties that should bring?

They allowed something similar though. Many TT players would utilize JJs to move to semi covered positions and/or change the angle of a shot. If a mech is stripped of armor on the right side people would use JJs on a mech with crit seekers like SRMs to hop to that side and change the table they rolled upon to be more focussed on the right side. They would also use them to jump to a mech's back where it can fire back with a limited number of weapons while they cored it's back.

I would often hop to locations where I had partial cover or to where I was in cover from multiple mechs while firing upon one.

The concept is slightly different, but basically the same. You limit the amount of exposure your mech has while firing back because JJs offer better maneuverability.

[SniperCon]

There's two ways to think about should JJs have a drawback. The drawbacks for equipping them, and drawbacks for using them.

The drawback for equipping JJs is 1-2% of your total weight per JJ.
The advantage for equipping one JJ is significant with rapidly diminishing returns after that.

The drawback for using JJs is reduced accuracy on the way up and 1-2% heat.
The advantage for using JJs include traversing impassible hills, accessing inaccessible places, avoiding damage, spreading damage, clearing cover, faster tighter turns, shooting behind you, smoke screen, and (eventually) death from above.


To evaluate whether to equip jump jets, ask yourself "Yes!" then add more than one if weight allows.
To evaluate whether to use jump jets, ask yourself "Yes!" but only shoot on the way down.

I'm sure JJs would survive an additional disadvantage or two and benefit a "thinking man's shooter" by making the question of JJs a little more thoughtful.

[Mystere]

SniperCon, on 20 November 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

I'm sure JJs would survive an additional disadvantage or two and benefit a "thinking man's shooter" by making the question of JJs a little more thoughtful.

Oh, I'm sure JJs would survive. But given past history, I expect lights to horribly get shafted again.

[Mercules]

SniperCon, on 20 November 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

I'm sure JJs would survive an additional disadvantage or two and benefit a "thinking man's shooter" by making the question of JJs a little more thoughtful.

Buuuuuuuuuttt...


Let's not kid ourselves and pretend this is a problem with JJs. The problems lay in two different areas.

Heat scale & Convergence. If heat scaling was done properly with disadvantages to having some heat then JJs would have their normal disadvantage, but it isn't. If convergence was changed so that pinpoint alphas we not possible without time or standing still then JJs would have their normal disadvantage.

JJs are not the issue, it is the other systems that have removed JJ disadvantages and given them new advantages.

[MustrumRidcully]

Mercules, on 20 November 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

They allowed something similar though. Many TT players would utilize JJs to move to semi covered positions and/or change the angle of a shot. If a mech is stripped of armor on the right side people would use JJs on a mech with crit seekers like SRMs to hop to that side and change the table they rolled upon to be more focussed on the right side. They would also use them to jump to a mech's back where it can fire back with a limited number of weapons while they cored it's back.

I would often hop to locations where I had partial cover or to where I was in cover from multiple mechs while firing upon one.

The concept is slightly different, but basically the same. You limit the amount of exposure your mech has while firing back because JJs offer better maneuverability.

Partial Cover isn't Full Cover. Every turn you could shoot, the enemy could shoot back - he didn't just get a lucky shot in, he had his regular options. Of course, you could jump behind him - but you still weren'T just hiding in cover, and doing that required you to be close to him. Poparting avoids all that. The window of opportunity for the opposition to react to this tactic is extremely small. It's a smart tactic, obviously, because you'd be stupid to expose yourself more than necessary. But it might be too effective in gameplay and needs further limitations if we want other tactics to compete.

[Mercules]

MustrumRidcully, on 20 November 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

The window of opportunity for the opposition to react to this tactic is extremely small. It's a smart tactic, obviously, because you'd be stupid to expose yourself more than necessary.

Lets address something here. ~WHY~ does poptarting work and allow them to damage you while avoiding damage? Think about it for a moment and then offer up the normal answer:

"Well, because they hop up, see where you are, then drop back down. Next time they hop up they are already prepared to shoot and just clear enough to shoot and then drop back down before you can acquire a target and get a shot off that will hit them. You can't lead them enough to hit them on the way down and THEY know when they are going to stop going up."

That is the truth of it. It's hard for us to get a fix and fire upon them while they can get a fix and fire upon us. What this is ignoring though... IS THAT MOST OF THE PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT GETTING HIT BY POPTARTS ARE EITHER STANDING STILL OR MOVING ONLY SLOWLY MAKING THEMSELVES VERY EASY TARGETS TO FIND, TRACK, AND THEN SHOOT ON THE NEXT "POP". If all you people would stop milling about in the same general area when someone pops up and fires and all break right or left and get those mechs up to full speed the Poptarts would be unable to track you efficiently enough to get accurate shots off on you.

[MustrumRidcully]

Mercules, on 20 November 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

Lets address something here. ~WHY~ does poptarting work and allow them to damage you while avoiding damage? Think about it for a moment and then offer up the normal answer:

"Well, because they hop up, see where you are, then drop back down. Next time they hop up they are already prepared to shoot and just clear enough to shoot and then drop back down before you can acquire a target and get a shot off that will hit them. You can't lead them enough to hit them on the way down and THEY know when they are going to stop going up."

That is the truth of it. It's hard for us to get a fix and fire upon them while they can get a fix and fire upon us. What this is ignoring though... IS THAT MOST OF THE PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT GETTING HIT BY POPTARTS ARE EITHER STANDING STILL OR MOVING ONLY SLOWLY MAKING THEMSELVES VERY EASY TARGETS TO FIND, TRACK, AND THEN SHOOT ON THE NEXT "POP". If all you people would stop milling about in the same general area when someone pops up and fires and all break right or left and get those mechs up to full speed the Poptarts would be unable to track you efficiently enough to get accurate shots off on you.

That would be a problem regardless of whether we talk about non-poparts or poptarts. It's something everyone shooting at you benefits from.

[Mercules]

MustrumRidcully, on 20 November 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

That would be a problem regardless of whether we talk about non-poparts or poptarts. It's something everyone shooting at you benefits from.

Yes but it is still a case where BAD PLAYERS think something is broken because it works really well against them when they are being dumb.

[Lucian Nostra]

Mercules, on 20 November 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

Lets address something here. ~WHY~ does poptarting work and allow them to damage you while avoiding damage? Think about it for a moment and then offer up the normal answer:

"Well, because they hop up, see where you are, then drop back down. Next time they hop up they are already prepared to shoot and just clear enough to shoot and then drop back down before you can acquire a target and get a shot off that will hit them. You can't lead them enough to hit them on the way down and THEY know when they are going to stop going up."

That is the truth of it. It's hard for us to get a fix and fire upon them while they can get a fix and fire upon us. What this is ignoring though... IS THAT MOST OF THE PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT GETTING HIT BY POPTARTS ARE EITHER STANDING STILL OR MOVING ONLY SLOWLY MAKING THEMSELVES VERY EASY TARGETS TO FIND, TRACK, AND THEN SHOOT ON THE NEXT "POP". If all you people would stop milling about in the same general area when someone pops up and fires and all break right or left and get those mechs up to full speed the Poptarts would be unable to track you efficiently enough to get accurate shots off on you.

It's not just this but they complain as you said about small chances to deal damage back before the mech falls. The funny thing about it is this. The Poptart has to reveal more of his mech to shoot at you (Cataphract has to get his arms clear) than he lets off the jets so his reticule stops wobbling and fires. The target simply needs some portion of the mech to expose itself to fire at the poptart. You should be able to get the shot off before the poptarter

Seriously that's about it in a nut shell.. well that and for some reason a lot of people feel the need to elevate their guns as the poptart rises vs just aiming above the hill/building and firing

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 20 November 2013 - 01:20 PM.