216 replies to this topic

[ColourfulConfetti]

Lucian Nostra, on 20 November 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

It's not just this but they complain as you said about small chances to deal damage back before the mech falls. The funny thing about it is this. The Poptart has to reveal more of his mech to shoot at you (Cataphract has to get his arms clear) than he lets off the jets so his reticule stops wobbling and fires. The target simply needs some portion of the mech to expose itself to fire at the poptart. You should be able to get the shot off before the poptarter

Seriously that's about it in a nut shell.. well that and for some reason a lot of people feel the need to elevate their guns as the poptart rises vs just aiming above the hill/building and firing

You got a incredibly small window of time to return fire, your far less likley to hit where you want, due to how small of a window you have plus the fact that they can twist their body so the least amount of their CT and side torsos are exposed, they can cancel their jump jets right BEFORE they know their enemy will likely will return fire. Their downward descent is much faster and harder to lead than some guy who is peeking past cover or somebody in the open standing motionless or moving very slowly. On top of that you never actually know where they will pop out from, where as with a ridge peeker, you know most likely locations of where they will do such actions. A good poptart relocates in a different area so his poptarting almost always is a different area, and a good poptart uses sensor locks from allies to his advantage. There is no situation where your completley safe from a poptart, especially so if your a heavy or asualt. A medium may be able to outrun his alpha sometimes and lights are pretty much not ususally effected, but otherwise, there is no real way to avoid the poptart as he relocates each time to pop another alpha off while you stay with your team behind cover, ect.

Edited by PalmaRoma, 20 November 2013 - 01:35 PM.

[Mawai]

If you think that jump jets don't have a drawback then you don't use them very much.

Although this affects light mechs more than heavies ... when you land you are usually almost stationary ... it is a major downside to jump jets

If you are complaining about pop-tarting ... weapon shake was introduced to make this more challenging ... maybe they need to increase the scatter or the length of the scatter period when firing and flying?

Edited by Mawai, 20 November 2013 - 01:41 PM.

[St4LkeRxF]

Nerf poptarts i don't mind i will just get behind you and core you because if you don't move you deserve to die simple as that.

[Bhael Fire]

PalmaRoma, on 19 November 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

just what exactly do I do about a mech that only exposes itself for a second or two and pops off a 30-40 pinpoint alpha in my face?

How about using the abundant cover that's all over each map instead derping around out in the open?

[ColourfulConfetti]

Bhael Fire, on 20 November 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

How about using the abundant cover that's all over each map instead derping around out in the open?

I don't "derp around in the open" as you put it, I'm behind cover, and the poptarts, use their jjs to traverse our teams cover wether it be a dropship, a canyon wall, whatever, stop "derping around" in the forums and make some valid counterpoints.

Edited by PalmaRoma, 20 November 2013 - 03:55 PM.

[ColourfulConfetti]

St4LkeRxF, on 20 November 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

Nerf poptarts i don't mind i will just get behind you and core you because if you don't move you deserve to die simple as that.

I do move, doesn't change what a skilled poptart can do, oh and I welcome you to try getting behind me, don't mind the rest of my my team guarding me. That will work out real well for you. Please, I implore you to try.

Edited by PalmaRoma, 20 November 2013 - 04:08 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

PalmaRoma, on 20 November 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

I don't "derp around in the open" as you put it, I'm behind cover, and the poptarts, use their jjs to traverse our teams cover wether it be a dropship, a canyon wall, whatever, stop derping around in the forums and make some valid counterpoints.

I just do not see how poptarts could possibly be a problem for anyone that is experienced with the maps and using the terrain to their advantage.

Obviously, if you are getting hit by poptarts frequently you're doing something wrong. I see players trying to poptart all the time without much success...and when they are lucky enough to get a telling blow their target is usually...for lack of a better word..."derping" around in the open (regardless if it's behind the dropship in Frozen, the shipwreck in Colony, or whatever).

[-Deliverance]

My Opinions if I am covering over things that were mentioned pages back.

The Drawback should be that JJ

Weight differs per class of MECHS

Critical Slots goes up base on size JJ needed to power a .5 ton JJ compared to a 2 ton JJ

Lift should be based on Total Number of JJ/Thrust and the Size of the Mech

Heat should increases for the next size class up.

Manuverablilty Based on Number of JJ number.

Some sort of piloting skill (not sure how to implement this) to see if you land safely base on landing (falling speed)

Remove Shaking.

[ColourfulConfetti]

Bhael Fire, on 20 November 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

I just do not see how poptarts could possibly be a problem for anyone that is experienced with the maps and using the terrain to their advantage.

Obviously, if you are getting hit by poptarts frequently you're doing something wrong. I see players trying to poptart all the time without much success...and when they are lucky enough to get a telling blow their target is usually...for lack of a better word..."derping" around in the open (regardless if it's behind the dropship in Frozen, the shipwreck in Colony, or whatever).

No, now your putting words in my mouth, I never said I was getting hit frequently, obviously if I get hit once, I know to move, but relocating from the meat of the battle is never wise, of course I know to move somewhere more concealed, but the meat of the battle is in one location usually, which means I'm putting myself in danger by straying to far from the team (depending on the map) and many others get smacked with a 40 pinpoint alpha from the poptart, if the poptart is wise, he moves to a new area, so his emergence comes as another surprise, so even if the whole team relocated, there will still be multiple strikes against them from the poptart who, after two or three alphas, knows to move. I don;t always get poptarts, but when I do, they score high damage, and have at least 3 kills, whether it be our own or the enemy team anybody who is decent at it, will get massive damage. The issue here is I'm seeing far better poptarts on my end than yours.

Edited by PalmaRoma, 20 November 2013 - 04:20 PM.

[Troutmonkey]

xRatas, on 19 November 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

I've seen quite serious suspension in those All 'murican monstertrucks. I'd say they rival motocross bike quite nicely. Both are built to withstand the mass of said vehicle and it's common load landing from reasonable fall. Ofcouse, dropped on same height, heavier vehicle gets hit harder. But I also see spider fly much higher than Highlanders.

I knew someone would bring up monster trucks. Look, those things are ALL suspension and fibre glass. They break all the time, and weigh considerably less than any actual rig. Not a valid point for comparison unless you want to strip all the armour from your Victor and replace it with shock absorbers.

Livewyr, on 20 November 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

Thinking:

When JJs are fired, weapons become inactive.

Weapons reactivate some time after JJ's have stopped.
(Option A: A flat 2 seconds afterward, or Option B for the same length of time the JJs were fired.)

No no no. If lights arn't able to fly and shoot then you're nerfing lights a bunch without hurting the bigger guys much at all, and lights are already in a worse position. Next solution please

[Troutmonkey]

Chicks Dig Dungeon Masters, on 20 November 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

My Opinions if I am covering over things that were mentioned pages back.

The Drawback should be that JJ

Weight differs per class of MECHS

Critical Slots goes up base on size JJ needed to power a .5 ton JJ compared to a 2 ton JJ

Lift should be based on Total Number of JJ/Thrust and the Size of the Mech

Heat should increases for the next size class up.

Manuverablilty Based on Number of JJ number.

Some sort of piloting skill (not sure how to implement this) to see if you land safely base on landing (falling speed) - Increased fall damage for heavier mechs, meaning they will have to use fuel to buffer their falls

Remove Shaking.

These are pretty good suggestions. I'd say make JJs one crit slot for Light Mediums and two for heavies / assaults. Ballistics and JJs won't look so go when you have no slots left for both.

Edited by Troutmonkey, 20 November 2013 - 04:34 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

PalmaRoma, on 20 November 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

The issue here is I'm seeing far better poptarts on my end than yours.

Possibly. But I think it's more likely a matter of chosen tactics.

[ColourfulConfetti]

Bhael Fire, on 20 November 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Possibly. But I think it's more likely a matter of chosen tactics.

No amount of caps locks or yelling will get my whole team behind more cover, nor do I think its wise.

[Solis Obscuri]

Jump jets already take up additional crit slots and weight on your 'mech and generate heat.

[Cpt Leprechaun]

The problem here isn't that JJ don't have drawbacks they do as stated before tonnage heat (albeit negligible) and slots. The problem with JJ is that for what they cost they give way to much. This balance issue is caused by the fact that poptarting can be done with only 2 tons and a crit slot. This correlates to the old overpower ECM which was (and still is just not as overpowering) 1.5 tons and 2 crit slots. In that the cost is very small for the rewards that it brings. taking some of these rewards away would balance out the JJ. I think that 1 crit slot 1 ton and a little bit of heat is worth being able to get up a hill or over rough terrain and even being a little bit more survivable. However being able to fire weapons while in the air gives the equipment to much reward without enough drawback. take it out and it should be balanced.

a balanced JJ imo
pros:
-more survivable
-more maneuverable
-can fire smaller sized weapons while in the air
(possibly disable LL ERLL and LPL would need to be play tested most likely not though)
cons:
-takes up tonnage
-takes up crit slots
-produces heat
-Larger weapons cannot be fired while the mech is in the air with JJ equipped (PPC/ERPPC/AC5/UAC5/AC10/LBX10/AC20)
(possibly disable LL ERLL and LPL would need to be play tested most likely not though)
General changes:
number of JJ has a greater effect on the height of the jump
JJ heat production increased

The reason behind not being able to fire that weaponry while in the air is that the recoil would knock the mech out or a proper flight path and thus would crash down on its side or back or what have you.

[MERC Mournblade]

Anyone that has heard of me before knows that I'm a strong voice against poptarting. Having said this, I believe that there is nothing overpowered or broken about poptarting or JJs in particular. Those two are all working within the boundaries of the game mechanics and coding. The real problem with poptarting is that it has gone from being a tactic used sparingly by one or two mechs earlier in the year, to a tactic used throughout a whole game now. Furthermore, poptarting is considered annoying for anyone not doing it themselves, so when you have someone doing it for the whole game, or perhaps a group doing it, then it has crossed over from strategy into the realm of trolling.

However, putting the trolling connotations about poptarting aside, the underlying problem about the current meta is that short range builds are not as effective as they should be against the ranged mechs when fighting up close (180m or less). If SRMs were functioning to their full capacity, sure, but I find SRMs too hot for brawling in most instances when using more than 3. Same goes for small lasers, which should have a supreme advantage against long range weapons within 90m. Evidently this is not the case. I often kill my fair share of poptart mechs up close, but rarely is it with weapons that should be more suited to the task. As another poster in another thread mentioned, MWO should have a rock-paper-scissors system, but at the moment it does not.

As for all the players defending the meta as though their lives depended on it... well... this is the result of previously low elo players finding a gravy train to toot all the way to high elodom. What we have is a lot of scared jumpsnipers who know that their inflated KDRs will plummet back into the negative should they step foot outside their candy rockets. I know this, because I have seen numerous poptarters try their luck with non-poptarting mechs... to disastrous results. It is always amusing to see them back in their highlanders or victors next game.

But anyway, I'll stop there. I'd hate for poptarters to cry about what I wrote.

Here's to hoping that short range weapons will eventually find their own strength on the battlefield *raises glass in toast*.

- Mournblade

[Diego Angelus]

SniperCon, on 20 November 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

I'm sure JJs would survive an additional disadvantage or two and benefit a "thinking man's shooter" by making the question of JJs a little more thoughtful.

Nicely said you are spot on, that is whole reason why I made this thread I want to ask my self those questions. Now its really clear If mech can use JJs there is absolutely no reason to think about it.

[ColourfulConfetti]

MERC Mournblade, on 20 November 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

Anyone that has heard of me before knows that I'm a strong voice against poptarting. Having said this, I believe that there is nothing overpowered or broken about poptarting or JJs in particular. Those two are all working within the boundaries of the game mechanics and coding. The real problem with poptarting is that it has gone from being a tactic used sparingly by one or two mechs earlier in the year, to a tactic used throughout a whole game now. Furthermore, poptarting is considered annoying for anyone not doing it themselves, so when you have someone doing it for the whole game, or perhaps a group doing it, then it has crossed over from strategy into the realm of trolling.

However, putting the trolling connotations about poptarting aside, the underlying problem about the current meta is that short range builds are not as effective as they should be against the ranged mechs when fighting up close (180m or less). If SRMs were functioning to their full capacity, sure, but I find SRMs too hot for brawling in most instances when using more than 3. Same goes for small lasers, which should have a supreme advantage against long range weapons within 90m. Evidently this is not the case. I often kill my fair share of poptart mechs up close, but rarely is it with weapons that should be more suited to the task. As another poster in another thread mentioned, MWO should have a rock-paper-scissors system, but at the moment it does not.

As for all the players defending the meta as though their lives depended on it... well... this is the result of previously low elo players finding a gravy train to toot all the way to high elodom. What we have is a lot of scared jumpsnipers who know that their inflated KDRs will plummet back into the negative should they step foot outside their candy rockets. I know this, because I have seen numerous poptarters try their luck with non-poptarting mechs... to disastrous results. It is always amusing to see them back in their highlanders or victors next game.

But anyway, I'll stop there. I'd hate for poptarters to cry about what I wrote.

Here's to hoping that short range weapons will eventually find their own strength on the battlefield *raises glass in toast*.

- Mournblade

Well said Mournblade, I myself wouldn't mind poptarts if other builds can be similairly effective, but in competitve play poptarts are still the king unfortunately, I won't deny that a very successful pop tart doesn't take skill, it does of course, but the mechanic is also very hard to counter at the same time. To the point were nothing else can really counter it, save for lrms (assuming you have advanced target decay and the enemy did not bring ecm. and all of those are all big ifs.) I'd definitely agree that short range weapons could use a buff, it'd be a great way to even things out.

Edited by PalmaRoma, 20 November 2013 - 09:14 PM.

[Mystere]

MERC Mournblade, on 20 November 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

The real problem with poptarting is that it has gone from being a tactic used sparingly by one or two mechs earlier in the year, to a tactic used throughout a whole game now ...

This is only because very few people have developed and mastered tactics to effectively combat them. But, once that too is known, most of the "monkey see, monkey do" poptarting crowd will disappear.

Edited by Mystere, 20 November 2013 - 09:15 PM.

[Snowhawk]

I like jump jets but honestly.... better nerf them. Just lock the weapons if you are using your jump jets plus 1,5 seconds weapon block after releasing them. And why? Because jump snipers are back on the field. Their new "secret"-Trololol build is now well known and soon you must run this build if you want to play a competitive mech, so boring.