216 replies to this topic

[Diego Angelus]

Raso, on 23 November 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

If I'm not mistaken what you're equipping to your mech is actually a fuel tank, not the actual jump jet nozzle or thruster. Maybe have the fuel takes be volatile like stored ammo?

Maybe have JJs produce heat when used? I mean it's not like your're shooting enough fire out of your rear to propel a 60 ton mech into the air, or anything, how could that possibly generate any heat?

Its not fuel tanks its JJs they use engine to heat air.

[St4LkeRxF]

Diego Angelus, on 24 November 2013 - 03:03 AM, said:

Its not fuel tanks its JJs they use engine to heat air.

[Bobdolemite]

Pro's - Can shoot in some cover situations
- increased mobility
- improved information gathering / spotting
- Can use to spread damage across mech
- Its fun!

Con's - Slots
- Tonnage
- Minor heat generation
- Full stop on landing (allowing shots to be lined up on you easily)
- Exposure to enemy fire (while in air)
- Limited situational awareness (hard to pay attention to the rear push when your in the air aiming enemy mechs)
- Screen shake
- Aiming penalties (while JJ's are on)
- Frequent leg damage

Game..... set..... MATCH!

Id say there are already some pretty poignant drawbacks to using JJ's. Its just that people will refuse to learn how to exploit these shortcomings. And im tired of the (1 is okay but 12 is OP) argument, this is true about almost everything in the game (less = tolerable / more = difficult)

And my last point, not everything in the game needs some serious flaw or drawback. Is this how it works anywhere else whether it be RL or fiction? Some things when added to the mix serve to enhance with little to no drawback, its called good engineering =) Generally being airborne is considered to be superior to ground borne, with the drawback being everyone can see you in the air (which IMO should be penalty enough, though I have no problem with all the Cons I listed)

[Diego Angelus]

Bobdolemite, on 24 November 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

Pro's - Can shoot in some cover situations
- increased mobility
- improved information gathering / spotting
- Can use to spread damage across mech
- Its fun!

Con's - Slots
- Tonnage
- Minor heat generation
- Full stop on landing (allowing shots to be lined up on you easily)
- Exposure to enemy fire (while in air)
- Limited situational awareness (hard to pay attention to the rear push when your in the air aiming enemy mechs)
- Screen shake
- Aiming penalties (while JJ's are on)
- Frequent leg damage

Game..... set..... MATCH!

Id say there are already some pretty poignant drawbacks to using JJ's. Its just that people will refuse to learn how to exploit these shortcomings. And im tired of the (1 is okay but 12 is OP) argument, this is true about almost everything in the game (less = tolerable / more = difficult)

And my last point, not everything in the game needs some serious flaw or drawback. Is this how it works anywhere else whether it be RL or fiction? Some things when added to the mix serve to enhance with little to no drawback, its called good engineering =) Generally being airborne is considered to be superior to ground borne, with the drawback being everyone can see you in the air (which IMO should be penalty enough, though I have no problem with all the Cons I listed)

I agree that not every drawback should be serious but JJs are too good to pass up so just think about it what do you gain by removing JJs from BJ1/highlander its no brainer for thinking shooter game.

[Mystere]

Here's some food for thought ...

Let us imagine that a highly-coordinated team (named the A-Team, of course ) appears on the MWO scene with the following attributes:

• Team always deploys a weight-balanced roster of 3xLights + 3xMediums + 3xHeavies + 3xAssaults, all fully mastered.
  
• Team coordinates via Teamspeak.
  
• All are armed with nothing but ERLLs.
  
• All have one artillery module.
  
• All have one air strike module.
  
• No member of the team uses any of those so-called "OMFG! They're so OP!" jump jets.

Now, let us assume said team ROFLSTOMPs anybody and everybody they encounter, including those previously invincible 12-Higlander poptart teams.



In addition, and as a consequence, every try-hard "monkey see, monkey do" team out there copies them exactly and starts to ROFLSTOMP everybody else not employing those exact same tactics.

What do we do? Do we leave the A-Team alone and just hail them as Mechwarrior Gods? Or do we:

• nerf ERLLs
  
• create a separate pug-only queue
  
• create a separate non 12-man team queue
  
• ban Teamspeak
  
• ban teamwork
  
• ban the team's tactics
  
• ban the team from playing MWO

OMFG!!! The above list looks almost like every other "I was killed by XXX, please nerf XXX" thread that ever existed in these forums.






OMFG!!! OMFG!!! OMFG!!!

Edited by Mystere, 24 November 2013 - 01:32 PM.

[Funkin Disher]

Take out the aim shake, replace with screen shake. It's the entire mech moving, not your sights. Then make jumping generate a moderate amount of heat.

/2 cents.

[Mystere]

Kane0, on 24 November 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

Take out the aim shake, replace with screen shake. It's the entire mech moving, not your sights. Then make jumping generate a moderate amount of heat.

/2 cents.

As long as the screen shake is not too severe and more importantly follows an oscillation equation not based on random numbers, then I might be aggreeable on this. Otherwise, I just might end up in another "regurgitate my last meal" situation, like the last time screen shake was implemented.

[Diego Angelus]

Mystere, on 24 November 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

Here's some food for thought ...

Let us imagine that a highly-coordinated team (named the A-Team, of course ) appears on the MWO scene with the following attributes:

• Team always deploys a weight-balanced roster of 3xLights + 3xMediums + 3xHeavies + 3xAssaults, all fully mastered.
  
• Team coordinates via Teamspeak.
  
• All are armed with nothing but ERLLs.
  
• All have one artillery module.
  
• All have one air strike module.
  
• No member of the team uses any of those so-called "OMFG! They're so OP!" jump jets.

Now, let us assume said team ROFLSTOMPs anybody and everybody they encounter, including those previously invincible 12-Higlander poptart teams.




In addition, and as a consequence, every try-hard "monkey see, monkey do" team out there copies them exactly and starts to ROFLSTOMP everybody else not employing those exact same tactics.

What do we do? Do we leave the A-Team alone and just hail them as Mechwarrior Gods? Or do we:

• nerf ERLLs
  
• create a separate pug-only queue
  
• create a separate non 12-man team queue
  
• ban Teamspeak
  
• ban teamwork
  
• ban the team's tactics
  
• ban the team from playing MWO

OMFG!!! The above list looks almost like every other "I was killed by XXX, please nerf XXX" thread that ever existed in these forums.







OMFG!!! OMFG!!! OMFG!!!

Lots of assuming and no real "food"... currently without restrictions there is no reason not to go for all highlanders and scouts and that is why leagues use restrictions to bring back thinking and fun into this game.

This is not whine thread I made it because I was wondering and I'm still not convinced that JJs have enough drawback. If those worked like they should (e.g mechs not being able to poptart with 1 JJ) this thread might not even exist. Mechs that can't mount JJs are left in dark and mechs that have them never remove them because there absolutely no reason to do so.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Diego Angelus, on 24 November 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

Lots of assuming and no real "food"... currently without restrictions there is no reason not to go for all highlanders and scouts and that is why leagues use restrictions to bring back thinking and fun into this game

You couldn't be more wrong...the restrictions should be in tonnage limits for drops or something of the like. Taking it out on the mechs is not the right way of doing it, since there is nothing wrong w/JJ's. JJ's were so far superior in MW4 than in MWo and I do not recall that being detrimental to competitive play.
Are you implying it requires no thinking to play w/snipers on the team. Again you are wrong. But hey, you are entitled to your opinions as are we all.

[Mystere]

Diego Angelus, on 24 November 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

Lots of assuming and no real "food"... currently without restrictions there is no reason not to go for all highlanders and scouts and that is why leagues use restrictions to bring back thinking and fun into this game.

This is not whine thread I made it because I was wondering and I'm still not convinced that JJs have enough drawback. If those worked like they should (e.g mechs not being able to poptart with 1 JJ) this thread might not even exist. Mechs that can't mount JJs are left in dark and mechs that have them never remove them because there absolutely no reason to do so.

Well, I have a Shadowhawk that was stripped of it's JJs to accommodate an AC/20. So far, it's doing just fine (i.e. murdering unsuspecting assaults from behind, including poptarts ).

Edited by Mystere, 24 November 2013 - 10:29 PM.

[Diego Angelus]

xMEPHISTOx, on 24 November 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

You couldn't be more wrong...the restrictions should be in tonnage limits for drops or something of the like. Taking it out on the mechs is not the right way of doing it, since there is nothing wrong w/JJ's. JJ's were so far superior in MW4 than in MWo and I do not recall that being detrimental to competitive play.
Are you implying it requires no thinking to play w/snipers on the team. Again you are wrong. But hey, you are entitled to your opinions as are we all.

When I said no thinking I meant on mechbay thinking there is no question should I put JJs on or not. MW4 is different game lets not mix two games because that won't get us anywhere. Talking about restrictions is going off topic but having only tonnage restrictions in this game would be a good start then we could have private lobbies and play with different rules

Mystere, on 24 November 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

Well, I have a Shadowhawk that was stripped of it's JJs to accommodate an AC/20. So far, it's doing just fine (i.e. murdering unsuspecting assaults from behind, including poptarts ).

Why would you remove JJs to add ac20 when you can have both unless you went overboard with your engine.

[DrxAbstract]

There's only one real issue with JJs, or more accurately, their use: Their ability to reliably sabotage hit detection while Mechs are airborne.

The benefit to your Mech determines how many to use: Improved agility and mobility over terrain requires 1. Effective jump-sniping and dodging require anywhere from 2 to max.

The drawbacks to JJs go beyond tonnage, crit slots and heat... examples:

1. Using them to evade, juke, quick turn, leap over or in general decelerates your mech, sometimes by as much as 100% (Proportional to how extreme the manuever/landing is), making you much easier to hit by your opponent or other enemies gunning for you as well as guaranteeing your shots will be few (And inaccurate) to none in the process of taking off and landing if you use them to break the fall.

2. Your JJ manuevers and subsequent elevation changes might avoid immediate threats from your current opponent(s) but it can break terrain cover, exposing you to your opponent's friends (If there are any).

3. Using them can result in shunting damage to undesired sections of your mech, typically the legs, which can be extremely useful or extremely detrimental, it's a bit of a catch 22.

4. Can cause undesirable consquences via terrain interactions with your Mech, such as landing on terrain features that exacerbate the previously mentioned examples.

For all the potential benefits of using JJs there are equally weighted risks involved. JJs are merely a feature that provide battlefield-enhancing dynamics; another layer of gameplay interaction and complexity for those who desire it.

[Mystere]

Diego Angelus, on 24 November 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

Why would you remove JJs to add ac20 when you can have both unless you went overboard with your engine.

Well, I like doing some really nasty things on my unsuspecting victims' behinds and then running like hell before their friends know what just happened.

[Diego Angelus]

Mystere, on 24 November 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

Well, I like doing some really nasty things on my unsuspecting victims' behinds and then running like hell before their friends know what just happened.

Then you should sit in the jenner or something but hey what ever floats your boat

[Mystere]

Diego Angelus, on 24 November 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

Then you should sit in the jenner or something but hey what ever floats your boat

Well, a Jenner can just go "pew pew" (lasers) and/or "Bang! Bang!" (missiles). But, an AC/20 gives a very loud "BOOM!" that unnerves nearby enemies. In fact, I have seen entire lances suddenly freeze like deer facing headlights when that sound is heard, often giving me just enough time to fire another shot before hightailing out of there.

[Trauglodyte]

Quote

• nerf ERLLs

They do need to be nerfed a little. TT Lrg Laser was 8/8 with the ER doing 8/12 (+50% increase in heat). MWO Lrg Laser is 9/7 which means that ER should be doing 9/10.5 based on that transition. 8.5 heat is really too light given its range.

[Vodrin Thales]

Kane0, on 24 November 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

Take out the aim shake, replace with screen shake. It's the entire mech moving, not your sights. Then make jumping generate a moderate amount of heat.

/2 cents.

Apparently some players are very susceptible to nausea with screen shake as the rather modest screen shake JJ's had when the nerf was originally introduced was later removed for that stated reason, so I do not think PGI is bringing it back.