55 replies to this topic

[0Life]

So, I have been noticing of late that many builds are using 2-3 AC2, or twin AC5 (instead of an AC10). What is the reasoning behind this, short of a higher rate of fire and possibly slightly greater ammo capacity? The heat is generally greater, the weight is certainly greater. Sometimes the damage can be greater, technically (in the case of three AC2 vs one AC5) but otherwise you are equal on damage. I understand the range can be greater (worth it for a Cataphract 4X with quad AC5, instead of twin AC10) and in rare instance can then be worth that trade off, but generally it seems like it would logically wasted weight.

Would someone be so kind as to explain the logic behind this? I understand that it apparently works well in the hands of people that are doing it (why else would they do it?), but there is apparently something that I am just failing to understand.

[101011]

DPS, as well as more redundancy, Take the quad AC5 4X and the dual AC10 4X. The AC10's are larger than an AC5, increasing the probability that one will be hit. Add that to the fact that it takes 20 points of damage to knock out both AC5's to the 10 points needed to destroy the AC10, and you have higher survivability.

[zazz0000]

It's a matter of DPS for one thing. 3xAC-2 gives u 12dps, 2xAC-5 gives 10dps, while AC-10 yields 4dps.
The higher rate of fire also puts up an ungodly screenshake on the receiving end, making it tougher to return fire.

[WVAnonymous]

DPS and the gauss nerf.

A lot of builds have 2 ballistic points where the gauss would have been and 2 AC5s is an easy plug and play for a lot of builds, with very manageable heat as well.

AC2s throw off a lot more heat per second, weigh more, and it can be hard to keep up the rate of fire you want.

[Tesunie]

From personal testing an experience, I have found that my multiple ACs seems to work better and yeild more damage/kills than a single larger AC. AC2s have been particularly surprising with their results.

I compared the dual AC5 to an Ultra AC5, and noticed that my damage and kills almost doubled. Place them on chain fire and you have an Ultra with no jam chance. Keep the damage pooring with almost no heat, and it shot faster than an AC10.

The AC2s really surprised me, as I recall my dual AC2 Cicada being a poor build back when ECM first came out (besides to play bluewarrior and shoot the unsuspecting ECM mechs who thought they where completely invisible). Replacing an AC5 with just a single AC2 had me doing almost the same damage (AC2s shoot very fast). When doubled up on the AC2s, I was amazed at the results. With the weight of them, I placed 3 on my Battlemaster and was really truely amazed at it's damage capabilities. Between the smoke, the 6 points of damage every 0.52 seconds, it ended up being worth the ghost heat. I stand toe to toe with Atlases in my Battlemaster and kill them with too much ease. I'm normally still alive enough to pick another fight too. Biggest problem is the heat, but the damage has been worth it still.

Now, from my own personal testing, I'd say the AC5, 10 and 20 seem to feel about right. The AC2 though feels like it's doing too much damage too fast and it is seeming stronger than it should be. Of course, this is my feelings on the matter, and I did a little testing and found that a triple AC2 set up alpha striking onto a mech (counting the shots) seemed to do a few points too much damage than they should have. Of course we are talking about it being one less volley of fire before the target dropped and when it should have... so it is rather insignificant.

Basically, people are "boating" smaller ACs because they seem to be more effective than they should be. What can be done to change this I don't know, but I'd suggest another look into the cool down times for all ACs. (Just a suggestion from my observations, nothing more.)

[Amsro]

3 AC/2 or bust for me, I don't use AC/2 on many mechs (only 3 mechs with it). 12 DPS is hard to beat, be wary of the heat.

I wouldn't say AC/2 is OP but stacked in 3-4 can be very devastating, although accuracy is required to make it effective. Otherwise you would just get 1000 damage from destroying components.

With that said I typically use Gauss on most other ballistic mechs, with the odd Dual LB10X or Dual UAC/5 builds. I even have a couple Quad Machine Gun mechs.

[Koniving]

0Life, on 19 November 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

Would someone be so kind as to explain the logic behind this? I understand that it apparently works well in the hands of people that are doing it (why else would they do it?), but there is apparently something that I am just failing to understand.

4 AC/5s = 20 damage every 1.5 seconds. 4 heat every 1.5 seconds. 4 slots per weapon. 16 slots total. 10 health per weapon. 24 tons + ammo. 30 shots per ton of ammo. Max Range: 1,700. Bullet speed 1,300 m/s.
2 AC/10s = 20 damage every 2.5 seconds. 6 heat every 2.5 seconds. 7 slots per weapon. 14 slots total. 10 health per weapon. 24 tons + ammo. 15 shots per ton. Max Range: 1,350. Bullet speed 1,100 m/s.

3 AC/2s = 6 damage every 0.52 seconds. 3 heat every 0.52 seconds. 1 slot per weapon. 3 slots total. 10 health per weapon. 18 tons + ammo. 75 shots per ton of ammo. Max range: 2,160 meters. Bullet speed 2,000 m/s.

In 10 seconds.
4 AC/5s = 28 shots fired (at 9 seconds) for 140 damage. 28 heat generated.
2 AC/10s = 10 shots fired (at 10 seconds) for 100 damage. 30 heat generated.
3 AC/2s = 60 shots fired (at 9.88 seconds) for 120 damage. 60 heat generated.

[Koniving]

Koniving, on 19 November 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

In 10 seconds.
4 AC/5s = 28 shots fired (at 9 seconds) for 140 damage. 28 heat generated.
2 AC/10s = 10 shots fired (at 10 seconds) for 100 damage. 30 heat generated.
3 AC/2s = 60 shots fired (at 9.88 seconds) for 120 damage. 60 heat generated.

(This post finds the time to shut down with MW3 [real time TT threshold] and MWO rising threshold with 10 DHS. 2.0 each, as I'm using a 250 engine for this instance. Comes complete with a heat simulator made by someone else to check my math with.)

Spoiler

In Mechwarrior 3 (30 threshold of tabletop but in real time).. (Using MWO's firing rate and heat generation. True double heatsinks in both scenarios.)

4 AC/5s = safe to use for 9 seconds if you're stationary without cooling. (10 doubles = 2 cooling/second * 9 seconds = 18.
28 - 18 = 10 heat. 18 seconds = 20 heat. 27 seconds = 30 heat if stationary, shutdown.) Produces 420 damage at shutdown.

2 AC/10s = shutdown in 10 seconds if stationary with no cooling. (10 doubles = 2 cooling/second * 10 seconds = 20.
30 heat - 20 dissipation = 10 heat. 20 seconds = 20 heat. 30 seconds = 30 heat, shutdown.) Produces 300 damage at shutdown.

3 AC/2s = Not safe to use. Overriden, self-destruct in 9.88 seconds without cooling at 200% heat. With 10 DHS 2 cooling/second * 9.88 = 19.76. 60 - 19.76 = 40.24. Overheat, crit damage, ammo explosion, death at 9.88 if overridden. MWO's overheat system, instant death at 134% heat. Produces 120 damage at death.
-----------
But, this is MWO. Not only do the 10 DHS in your 250 engine (must be a 250 engine or higher) get true doubles, they also increase your threshold to 50 before pilot skills (brand new mech with 250 engine and DHS, no additional heatsinks added). (60 after elite skills.)

4 AC/5s = safe to use for 18 seconds if you're stationary without cooling.
10 doubles = 2 cooling/second * 9 seconds = 18. 28 - 18 = 10 heat. 18 seconds = 20 heat. 27 seconds = 30 heat. 36 seconds = 40 heat. 45 seconds = 50 heat, shutdown.
In 45 seconds, produces 700 damage at shutdown.

2 AC/10s = shutdown in 10 seconds if stationary with no cooling.
10 doubles = 2 cooling/second * 10 seconds = 20. 30 heat - 20 dissipation = 10 heat. 20 seconds = 20 heat. 30 seconds = 30 heat. 40 seconds = 40 heat. 50 seconds = 50 heat, shutdown. Produces 500 damage at shutdown.

3 AC/2s = Safe to use. With 10 DHS 2 cooling/second * 9.88 = 19.76. 60 - 19.76 = 40.24.
An interval of 10 firings per AC/2 is 4.68 seconds (30 shots, 30 heat, 60 damage). 2 cooling/second * 9.36 heat cooled. 30 heat - 9.36 = 20.64 heat.
In 9.36 seconds (not related I swear), 41.28 heat after all cooling. At 11.44 seconds, (72 shots, 72 heat - 22.88 cooling=) 49.12 and so on forest colony if you were moving even 2 kph you'd shut down. 24 volleys of 3 AC/2s = 72 shots = 144 damage.

....Anyone wonder why we needed ghost heat? I think you know now. Pity they didn't fix the root problem, rising thresholds.

Test it in the heat simulator!
http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/

Edited by Koniving, 20 November 2013 - 08:44 AM.

[Arkadash]

Personally, I like the dual AC/5s because of the range. They give me enough reach with a quick jab to let me build my other weapons systems around closer engagements for the knock-out.

[Bagheera]

0Life, on 19 November 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

2/3 AC2, WHY?

Because it's fun.

[Training Instructor]

Messed up weapon balance where boating lasers, even medium lasers, will see you splashing damage all over the place while overheating ridiculously fast.

LRMs are okay....sometimes.
SRM hit detection is really bad, especially against any mech moving faster than 70kph.

So you have ballistics. Most ballistics mechs don't have to invest much tonnage/crits into heatsinks, and if they're 65+ tons, they have plenty of weight allowance to make the weight of the autocannons manageable without having to make some kind of unworkable build like the Triple Gauss Ilya.

[Bront]

AC2 and AC5 rate of fire are a little too high, and so you get folks boating them. I get that 2 AC5 > 1 AC10 in some fashion given it weighs 4 tons more, but it's still a bit too high for my tastes

That said, the 2 AC2 1 AC5 mix is fairly popular as well. Similar range, AC5 has better DPS and less heat, so you need fewer HS, and yeah, you mix ammo a bit, but you need less AC5 ammo than you do AC2 ammo. I've found that combo to be pretty deadly.

Maths hidden

Spoiler

Koniving, on 19 November 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

In 10 seconds.
4 AC/5s = 28 shots fired (at 9 seconds) for 140 damage. 28 heat generated.
2 AC/10s = 10 shots fired (at 10 seconds) for 100 damage. 30 heat generated.
3 AC/2s = 60 shots fired (at 9.88 seconds) for 120 damage. 60 heat generated.

1 AC/5s = 7 shots fired (at 9 seconds) for 35 damage. 7 heat generated.
2 AC/2s = 40 shots fired (at 9.88 seconds) for 80 damage. 40 heat generated.

So, 135 damage over 10 seconds for 47 heat (drop 13 heat for only a 5 Damage loss). It really is better DPS, it just doesn't look like it due to the cycle time (add half a second and it gets better)

4 AC/5s = 32 shots fired (at 10.5 seconds) for 160 damage. 32 heat generated.
2 AC/10s = 10 shots fired (at 10 seconds) for 100 damage. 30 heat generated.
3 AC/2s = 63 shots fired (at 10.4 seconds) for 126 damage. 63 heat generated.

So
1 AC/5s = 8 shots fired (at 10.5 seconds) for 40 damage. 7 heat generated.
2 AC/2s = 42 shots fired (at 10.4 seconds) for 84 damage. 42 heat generated.

Ok, isn't the AC2 supposed to be slightly lower DPS than the AC5?

*does math* Ahh, Koniving's math is wrong.

Corrected math for 10 seconds
4 AC/5s = 24 shots fired (at 9 seconds) for 120 damage. 24 heat generated.
2 AC/10s = 8 shots fired (at 10 seconds) for 80 damage. 24 heat generated.
3 AC/2s = 57 shots fired (at 9.88 seconds) for 114 damage. 57 heat generated.

Corrected math for 10.5 seconds:
4 AC/5s = 28 shots fired (at 10.5 seconds) for 140 damage. 28 heat generated.
2 AC/10s = 8 shots fired (at 10 seconds) for 80 damage. 24 heat generated.
3 AC/2s = 60 shots fired (at 10.4 seconds) for 120 damage. 60 heat generated.

So
1 AC/5s = 7 shots fired (at 10.5 seconds) for 35 damage. 7 heat generated.
2 AC/2s = 40 shots fired (at 10.4 seconds) for 80 damage. 40 heat generated.

*checks smurphy* Ok, AC2 DPS is higher than the AC5. It's significantly hotter (about 3 times), but it still seems silly.

Anyway, the 2 AC2 1 AC5 build produces 5 less damage for 13 less heat per 10.5 seconds. You can save a ton on heat sinks and fire longer with that setup without really droping much DPS.

And apparently Koniving is bad at math

Edited by Bront, 20 November 2013 - 11:46 AM.

[ShadowbaneX]

As to the OP? Well, they're good at long range. They're good at medium range. They're good in brawling range. Good in all situations, why wouldn't people be using them...hey, wait? Wasn't the reason for the charge up change to the Gauss Rifle because it was a good weapon at any range...odd, that.

As for the recent posts about number comparisons, I really like how you need to compare 4 AC/5s to 3 AC/2s to get equal-ish DPS. 32 tons vs 18 tons. 1.78 times the tonnage, for 1.17 times the DPS for the AC/5. Then there's the AC/10 with more tonnage then the AC/2s, but way less damage.

Yeah, the heat is an issue, but then there's an easy way to solve that: Increase the cool down time by 1.925. Why that number? Well, oddly this would mean two things, it'd drop the DPS to 2 and drop the HPS to ~1. Well, you know what? That sounds a hell of a lot like Table Top to me. Who'd a thunk that they might have had some ideas that work?

[Bront]

ShadowbaneX, on 20 November 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

Yeah, the heat is an issue, but then there's an easy way to solve that: Increase the cool down time by 1.925. Why that number? Well, oddly this would mean two things, it'd drop the DPS to 2 and drop the HPS to ~1. Well, you know what? That sounds a hell of a lot like Table Top to me. Who'd a thunk that they might have had some ideas that work?

AC2s were useless in TT. The improved rate of fire was needed, but it's a bit overkill. making it .6 and the AC5 1.6 puts them a little more in line.

[ShadowbaneX]

Bront, on 20 November 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

AC2s were useless in TT. The improved rate of fire was needed, but it's a bit overkill. making it .6 and the AC5 1.6 puts them a little more in line.

The DPS of the AC/2 in TT was 0.2. This is still 10 times that, which is a massive improvement. There's no way the AC/2 should be up near 4 DPS, especially with the AC/5 at 3.3. As I mentioned with the change to the Gauss Rifle, the AC/2 is a viable in close weapon when you've got 2-3 of them, Lord knows I've been chewed up by them a time or two. They either need to have their RoF cut by at least a quarter, if not half, or they need to implement minimum range for them.

Actually, perhaps they should do that instead and for the (u)AC/5 as well. It'd love to see the look on the faces of the 'competitive' crowd as that happens.

[DONTOR]

Use the 3 AC10 illya watch the 3 AC2 builds run in terror.

[0Life]

I am not going to lie and say I follow all of the math done, but I am willing to take you at your word.

So, okay, I get it now. I suppose I finally have a build that will work in regards to at least a couple of my Battlemasters, and maybe my Shadow Hawks. *Sigh* back to the mechanics I guess.

Thank you all for the information!

[Victor Morson]

AC5s are a top dog weapon right now, found heavily on sniper builds.

AC2s are absolutely awful (in particular because any more than 3 causes huge Ghost Heat issues) and shouldn't be touched with a ten foot pole.

[Victor Morson]

Bront, on 20 November 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

Anyway, the 2 AC2 1 AC5 build produces 5 less damage for 13 less heat per 10.5 seconds. You can save a ton on heat sinks and fire longer with that setup without really droping much DPS.

AC/2 goes back to the "DPS doesn't matter, damage delivery time does" problem. In order to take advantage of an AC/2's firepower, you need to continually stay on target with almost no evasive time.

The AC/5 allows for strong pop-shots (one-off shots) fired with PPCs to have a good amount of damage; a couple shots before ducking to cover works well too. An AC/2 needs continuous, direct-LOS shooting to be worth anything. Then you have to figure in the enemy moving around, so it becomes far harder to always hit the area you want.

That's why despite having better DPS than a Gauss rifle nobody serious uses them, even aside from heat. It's scattered damage that makes you extremely vulnerable to get the most out of it. AC/2s are bad guns right now.

[SniperCon]

Keep in mind that it's easier to line up shots the greater the delay. It's easier to put 2 AC10 shots in an enemy CT than it is to put 10 AC2 shots in the same place. For this reason bigger ACs can have less DPS per ton but remain balanced with smaller ACs with more DPS per ton.