115 replies to this topic

[Threat Doc]

zax, on 13 November 2011 - 11:31 AM, said:

Still, slamming it as being the most twitchy of MW games probably has to do with the ease of control... and I must have missed the game design class that said players should have to fight with the game controls to do what they want to do.

Well, see, this just shows your lack of understanding about the way the BattleTech universe was designed. In this particular instance, the lore is so much more important than the mechanics, and I've stated elsewhere, if you would care to search -because I'm not going to write it up again, here-, why BattleTech is not your typical mech sim.

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Your success in MW2/3 probably had a lot to do with your age and general accessibility (or lack thereof) of online play in those games. MW4 was the game that brought online play to all players, and when the player pool is larger, the available skill increases. Also, the fact that you think that FPS games require no skill, thought or tactics shows your total lack of understanding of the genre.

FPS is a very broad term for looking at your computer screen, pointing your mouse at something juicy, and clicking until it's dead. My success in MW2/3 was as a result of training, understanding about lag-shooting, and my skill to get where I needed to get so my opponent would have less opportunity to shoot at me than I did at them. I'm not talking about pop-tarting, I'm talking about actual tactical skill in play, and I was good at it. In MW4, as long as you have decent control of how your jump jets work, you can kill your enemy with little or no actual skill or incoming fire.

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If you want a battletech game that is true to the tabletop rules, then you're free to go gather a group of people to program a turn-based battletech game that WILL adhere to all tabletop rules. It probably wouldn't even take that much work compared to the Living Legends mod. In fact, after googling it, there are several games like that out there. Go play them and stop trying to drag your clunky, turn-based mechancs into a real-time game.

See, now you're just being ****. I have said it before, that there were sims (MW3 and MPBT) that were enormously close to putting the essence, if not the exact TT rules into the game. If you're not going to read, please do not respond? Thank you.

[zax]

Kay Wolf, on 13 November 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:

Well, see, this just shows your lack of understanding about the way the BattleTech universe was designed. In this particular instance, the lore is so much more important than the mechanics, and I've stated elsewhere, if you would care to search -because I'm not going to write it up again, here-, why BattleTech is not your typical mech sim.

The lore is NEVER more important than the mechanics of a game. What's important in a game is that it is FUN.

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FPS is a very broad term for looking at your computer screen, pointing your mouse at something juicy, and clicking until it's dead. My success in MW2/3 was as a result of training, understanding about lag-shooting, and my skill to get where I needed to get so my opponent would have less opportunity to shoot at me than I did at them. I'm not talking about pop-tarting, I'm talking about actual tactical skill in play, and I was good at it. In MW4, as long as you have decent control of how your jump jets work, you can kill your enemy with little or no actual skill or incoming fire.

And MW4 had a similar skill-set that you mentioned being important in MW2/3. Could you be successful pop-tarting? Sure. Could you also be successful brawling? Sure. Could you also be successful in a missile boat? Sure. Could you do all of these equally well on any map? No. Just because YOU lacked the skill to be good at the game does not mean that the game did not require skill. I maintained a top 10 spot on 3 different ladders in MW4 for 6+ months, and your claim that it required no skill is ludicrous.

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See, now you're just being ****. I have said it before, that there were sims (MW3 and MPBT) that were enormously close to putting the essence, if not the exact TT rules into the game. If you're not going to read, please do not respond? Thank you.

So putting 16 medium lasers onto a mech and 1-shotting people was enormously close to the essence of the tabletop game? Really? The mechlab in MW4 was vastly superior to the tabletop systems in MW2/3 because it actually created some variation in mech layout. I can't claim that MW4 was wonderfully true to the lore, but the same could be said of all the MW games, because the lore and the tabletop rules do not translate particularly well with current technology and a real-time game.

You keep mentioning that the game needs to have the "essence" of Battletech without ever specifying exactly what that means. For most people, the essence boils down to mechs, the weapons available, and the feeling of mech vs mech combat. Lore is only a minor part of a mechwarrior game.

[Tweaks]

zax, on 13 November 2011 - 01:29 PM, said:

For most people, the essence boils down to mechs, the weapons available, and the feeling of mech vs mech combat. Lore is only a minor part of a mechwarrior game.

That couldn't be more wrong. You're making assumptions if you think "most" people think like you do. I don't! By "true essence", Kay means the essence of the TableTop game, and the canon that comes with it.

[zax]

And the canon/lore has absolutely no effect on gameplay inside of a mech, so I don't see why it is at all relevant.

[Woodstock]

never played it.

[phelanjkell]

Mechwarrior Living Legends is an excellent game!! Though nothing can compare to Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries, MW:LL comes very close and beyond in some regards.

The team has created a wonderful game, and they have stated it is not a 'battletech' focused mod. They have created their own systems for allot of things, but I always recomend people giving it a play!! Our Clan, Wolves in Exile, has compiled many videos of game play:

http://www.youtube.c.../13/uypEoT7Ctqs

[Threat Doc]

Tweaks, on 13 November 2011 - 02:01 PM, said:

That couldn't be more wrong. You're making assumptions if you think "most" people think like you do. I don't! By "true essence", Kay means the essence of the TableTop game, and the canon that comes with it.

Thank you, Tweaks. I was going to answer, earlier, but my sons and I were playing their very first TT game. Only a bit of the lore went into our discussion during our four-and-a-half hour game, which they loved, all of us got a kick out of, and they enjoyed it far more than MechWarrior: Dark Age, which we played two games of about eight months ago and they were bored to tears with it. The last three years, while they have been home with me, I have been talking BattleTech lore with them and, just recently, they have begun to ask questions. The Lore is important to the game.

zax, on 13 November 2011 - 02:31 PM, said:

And the canon/lore has absolutely no effect on gameplay inside of a mech, so I don't see why it is at all relevant.

Do you know what LosTech is, zax? Do you know why BattleTech was never meant to be an arcade game? Do you understand the history behind the game? If your answer to any of these questions is no, then you need to start studying. If you want an arcade game, go find one.

[MagnusEffect]

Tweaks, on 13 November 2011 - 07:18 AM, said:

I'm just curious... I've been hanging in the forums pretty much every day since November 1st, and I rarely see any mention or reference to the Mechwarrior: Living Legends Crysys mod, which I know many of us have played (or still do).

Can anybody think of why that is? Other than for the crappy game engine (Crysis is nice, but the engine has a lot of problems...), MW:LL is a pretty dang good game. I only had to stop playing myself because my PC couldn't handle it well enough to satisfy my taste for good graphics (had to run everything in medium/low to get decent FPS on some maps)...

I've been wondering that too. The fact that there have been more WoT references than MWLL is what REALLY scares me. I'm guessing that many, many more people have played WoT than MWLL. MWLL is, afterall, a mod and requires a much more powerful computer to run. I will also add it is VASTLY superior to WoT!

PLUG!:
http://www.mechlivinglegends.net/

Edited by MagnusEffect, 13 November 2011 - 07:29 PM.

[PropWash]

Actually, BattleTech was conceived to be an electronic simulation (in a pseudo arcade environment) before it was to become a board game.

Finances and technology were the reason it was a board game first.

The proceeds from the board game would eventually lead to the development of what became the BattleTech Center in Chicago, IL.

The board game itself was vastly simpler than it is now. Also, most of the back-story and canon 'fluff' didnt exist when the game was created and first sold.

That all came later when many other talented artists and writers got involved.

Kay Wolf, on 13 November 2011 - 07:18 PM, said:

Thank you, Tweaks. I was going to answer, earlier, but my sons and I were playing their very first TT game. Only a bit of the lore went into our discussion during our four-and-a-half hour game, which they loved, all of us got a kick out of, and they enjoyed it far more than MechWarrior: Dark Age, which we played two games of about eight months ago and they were bored to tears with it. The last three years, while they have been home with me, I have been talking BattleTech lore with them and, just recently, they have begun to ask questions. The Lore is important to the game.

Do you know what LosTech is, zax? Do you know why BattleTech was never meant to be an arcade game? Do you understand the history behind the game? If your answer to any of these questions is no, then you need to start studying. If you want an arcade game, go find one.

[PropWash]

And FWIW (to keep on topic) the idea that MWLL isnt getting enough 'talk' kind of misses the point.

MWLL is a high quality mod that gets a lot of attention and credit in some important circles.

The reality is that it is somewhat the 'new kid on the block' and as such hasnt had the same time in the field to garner the critical mass and attention that other mods or products have experienced because they have been around longer.

It also requires the purchase of another game and requires some fairly serious horsepower to run. Each of these is a stastical challenge to overcome however you choose to look at it.

It is by no means any statement about its quality and significance as it has both going for it.

I think it has done well and those who contribute to it have much to look forward to.

[MagnusEffect]

@ PropWash:

I don't know about the whole "new kid on the block" part. The mod has been out since 2009 at least, though I do agree that it is tragic how "relatively few" know about its existence. Granted, the mod has come a VERY long way since.

Edited by MagnusEffect, 13 November 2011 - 07:56 PM.

[Threat Doc]

PropWash, on 13 November 2011 - 07:32 PM, said:

Actually, BattleTech was conceived to be an electronic simulation (in a pseudo arcade environment) before it was to become a board game.

If that's true, it would have been nice to see that, first. However, considering the technology of the time, it would not have been very pretty. Heck the pod games were real ugly when they first came out, and then they were dealing mostly with Clan Tech, so had zero interest in them, then.

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The board game itself was vastly simpler than it is now. Also, most of the back-story and canon 'fluff' didnt exist when the game was created and first sold.

That all came later when many other talented artists and writers got involved.

And that would have been expected, because of it's newness. However, now that we have the 'fluff', back-story, and canon to it, it has grown beyond what it was originally intended to do, and now those of us who grew up with that expect it, and rightly so, to remain in place.

I only wish I would have had the chutzpah to get in on it back then, when I was still creative.

[gregsolidus]

Its been rendered redundant.

[AlfalphaCat]

Cyttorak, on 13 November 2011 - 11:02 AM, said:

3) MWLL has its own interpretation on artistic style, MWO will have its own.
4) Does MWLL have an economy? If not, nothing to discuss there.

Essentially, MWLL is most fully-realized in the models and art (AFAIK), but these are the points that few people would offer MWO suggestions on. WoT gets brought up often on these forums because what people are discussing are gameplay and balance issues...core game mechanics. MWLL has little to say on that subject.

Same guy, FlyingDebris, that is doing the concept art for MWO, worked on MWLL too. MWLL doesn't have an economy per se, but you do have to earn your way up through ranks that have corresponding Cbill spawn amounts. You can share money, and you have to buy your extra ammo. All of this is reset at the start of each map.

Dzamn fine game, IMO, and I play it almost every day. Also people saying their comps can't handle it is sorta silly, as I know many people play it on sub-par rigs.

[SDKFZ]

Sorry but I have to agree with almost everything zax have said.

zax, on 13 November 2011 - 01:29 PM, said:

What's important in a game is that it is FUN.

About MWLL it's a very well done mod, great work although I personally dislike it's gameplay.

Edited by SDKFZ, 13 November 2011 - 11:03 PM.

[SDKFZ]

double post

Edited by SDKFZ, 13 November 2011 - 11:05 PM.

[Sixpack]

I am very confident that the company is capable of making an enjoyable game that will be capable of staying alive in todays market.

What I fear is that they listen to the 'hardcore' crowd who don´t realy seem to think about anything but their own whishes and **** the game.

The discussion between Kay Wolf and Zax is probably a good demonstration in this case.

Rule of thumb:
What is good for the game first and foremost?

[Omega59er]

So few MWLL players on the forums cause they're too busy having epileptic seizures in the dark from their terrible cockpit jumping. ;] (Yes I'm poking the terrible cockpits in MWLL. But I still love the mod. As a missile mech.)

AlfalphaCat, on 13 November 2011 - 10:58 PM, said:

MWLL doesn't have an economy per se, but you do have to earn your way up through ranks that have corresponding Cbill spawn amounts. You can share money, and you have to buy your extra ammo. All of this is reset at the start of each map.

Dzamn fine game, IMO, and I play it almost every day. Also people saying their comps can't handle it is sorta silly, as I know many people play it on sub-par rigs.

The part I made bold makes me laugh. Economy in a game? hahahaha. I love how that term is thrown around so much. There is no economy. Just pre-set prices and ***hats who want to jack the price to scrounge out money on an auction hall.

I keep it civil, and I price my posts at 3/4 the competitors. Because I can. Because it's not an economy, it's just some bloke believes that he can extort money for that price. News for him. My post gets sold before his. ;]

Edited by omega5-9er, 14 November 2011 - 12:09 AM.

[Hellgardia]

Sixpack, on 13 November 2011 - 11:49 PM, said:

I am very confident that the company is capable of making an enjoyable game that will be capable of staying alive in todays market.

What I fear is that they listen to the 'hardcore' crowd who don´t realy seem to think about anything but their own whishes and **** the game.

The discussion between Kay Wolf and Zax is probably a good demonstration in this case.

Rule of thumb:
What is good for the game first and foremost?

This.

Although i do think the lore is very important when developing a MechWarrior game, ultimatly, the first thing the game needs to be is fun.
If the game isn't fun, the playerbase will shorten considerably which is something that cannot be desirable for the game developers.
Regarding MWLL it's an awesome "game" (between "" as it is a mod) and it has already been talked here before.
That being said, I do believe that MWO developers will make it something big ^^

That is all

Cheers
That being said,

[PropWash]

The first generation pods (1.0) did not have clan 'Mechs. The first system (system 1.0) in 1990 used what we now call the unseens. System 1 used sprite based animations.

It was later in System 2.x that real time polygons and shading was introduced. This is why the original 4 clan 'Mechs were implemented Into the new system. The processing capabilities at the time necessitated that the 'Mechs be simpler in design to bring the polygon count down to achieve tolerable framerates.

The simple design of the clan mechs, and the re-usable nature of the 'omni' concept, served its purposes well.

These 'Mechs would soon after make it into the canon BT fiction.

Kay Wolf, on 13 November 2011 - 08:59 PM, said:

If that's true, it would have been nice to see that, first. However, considering the technology of the time, it would not have been very pretty. Heck the pod games were real ugly when they first came out, and then they were dealing mostly with Clan Tech, so had zero interest in them, then.

And that would have been expected, because of it's newness. However, now that we have the 'fluff', back-story, and canon to it, it has grown beyond what it was originally intended to do, and now those of us who grew up with that expect it, and rightly so, to remain in place.

I only wish I would have had the chutzpah to get in on it back then, when I was still creative.

Edited for english.

Edited by PropWash, 14 November 2011 - 04:25 AM.