109 replies to this topic

[Wildstreak]

Clans = science gone mad. Genetically creating kids, raising them differently, teaching them fighting and killing is the highest calling, all super-soldier stuff. Clan Invasion always came across as part of the old debate which is better, Super-Soldiers programmed to obey and kill or humans that sometimes question orders and function on their own morals, beliefs, etc.

[Kyone Akashi]

AdamBaines, on 25 November 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

Check out Camacho's Caballeros. They actually have a good bit of fiction written about them. Also sometimes i think its perspective. Me being a white guy have often assumed wrong that a character is white, because that's my frame of reference. I took me year to figure out that Leo Showers was of Terren African decent. The text clearly outlines that, but again its my frame of reference. I also thought for a long time that Minobu Tetsuhara was Japanese because, well its a Japanese name. :-)

I've read one of the Caballeros novels, "Black Dragon", and thought it was pretty cool. It actually delved a bit into the cultural stuff, too, with there being different groups within the unit that have kept old traditions alive, and how they get along with each other.
I originally got it only because it dealt with the Draconis Combine, but the unit itself and the people in it have character, so much so that I'd consider reading more about them regardless of the subject.

As for Minobu Tetsuhara - one of his forefathers was Jackson Hayes, if I remember correctly. Said ancestor changed the family name during his service to the Combine as a testament of his allegiance to the Coordinator, who rewarded him with a special katana that became a family heirloom passing through many generations of proud samurai hailing from this bloodline.

Including those of Katana Tormark, another black MechWarrior (and a woman at that) who became Warlord of the Dieron Military District, appointed by Coordinator Vincent Kurita in recognition of her reclamation campaign during the Dark Age.
Shame the artist renditions picture her as a white woman when the novels clearly describe her as having "chocolate-brown" skin tho...

SpiralFace, on 25 November 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

But in reality, the Freeworld league is more American. The most "democratic" of the IS ruling nations, has much more of a "free market" mentality both in its military and the company's that are there.

In spite of what some fringe groups may claim, freedom and democracy are not an invention nor a monopoly of the US.

If you really want to argue for the Free Worlds League in this connection, I'd recommend focusing on the "cultural melting pot" aspect instead?

SpiralFace, on 25 November 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

One of the earliest examples of fiction in the Novel series was the "heir to the Dragon" book. Which featured a Black Kuritan character as the central character in the story. Despite the "80's" inspired cover, I felt the book treated him with respect. He was black, it got brought up a lot as far as the xenophobic dealings with his predominantly Asian superiors, but he himself wasn't a "stereotype" by any means.

You are probably referring to "Wolves on the Border" - "Heir to the Dragon" was an excellent novel as well, but that one was about the youth of future Coordinator Theodore Kurita.

I'd still recommend both. In fact, they were written by the same author!

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 26 November 2013 - 09:05 AM.

[Diego Angelus]

nice thread keep it going

[Odanan]

Kyone Akashi, on 26 November 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

In spite of what some fringe groups may claim, freedom and democracy are not an invention nor a monopoly of the US.

True!

(specially after the Patriotic Act)

[SpiralFace]

Kyone Akashi, on 26 November 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

In spite of what some fringe groups may claim, freedom and democracy are not an invention nor a monopoly of the US.

If you really want to argue for the Free Worlds League in this connection, I'd recommend focusing on the "cultural melting pot" aspect instead?

I was mostly paraphrasing. Their structure of "Representative democracy" on the state level is more indicative of the US, in addition to their stances on free market capitalism and "statelyhood" of the different principalities that make up the League.

I'm not saying the democracy is strictly a US thing. (Heck democracy has been around since Greece.) But the way they structure their governing body's, their cultural melting pot, and their free market capatalism stances make them more like the US then many of the other nations in the Inner sphere.

Its still a LOOSE association at best given that really NONE of the Sucession states really make seance as ruleing body's in what we precieve as a "modern" setting.

Kyone Akashi, on 26 November 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

You are probably referring to "Wolves on the Border" - "Heir to the Dragon" was an excellent novel as well, but that one was about the youth of future Coordinator Theodore Kurita.

I'd still recommend both. In fact, they were written by the same author!

Doh!

Slip of the tongue. I did mean "Wolves on the Boarder."
And yes, both those books are fantastic, and "heir to the dragon" in addition to being written by the same author is also a loose "indirect" sequil to wolves on the Boarder, since some of the cast from the first Novel shows up halfway through the book and you see some loose ends being tied up from the first book.

[Spr1ggan]

Rhys Erlykov, on 25 November 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Houses may have a dominant ethnicity, but no distinct ethnicity.

Most of the confusion comes from the ruling family's ethnicity.

Federated Suns (Davion): French/American/English.

Capellan Confederation (Liao): Chinese/Russian/Scottish

Free Worlds League (Marik): The greatest hodgepodge, but seemingly descended from the peoples of Greece/Balkans. No real characteristic ethnic group/culture.

Lyran Commonwealth (Steiner): German/Central European

Draconis Combine (Kurita): Japanese.

Free Rasalhague Republic: No ruling House, they're a break-away nation from Draconis Combine comprised of peoples of Nordic descent. Keeping in mind they speak a Swedish/Japanese mixture of a language.

These are all rules of thumb. Any ethnic group can be found in any Inner Sphere region.

I would add Scottish to the Lyran Commonwealth as well, Scottish Gaelic is one of the dominant languages in Lyran space.

Never heard of the Scottish connection with Liao though, thought it was just Chinese/Russian.

Edited by McHarg, 26 November 2013 - 10:58 AM.

[SpiralFace]

McHarg, on 26 November 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

Nevr heard of the Scottish connection with Liao though, thouh it was just Chinese/Russian.

More Chineese / Hindu.

Additionally, they have Scottish roots through both the Northwind Highlanders and the MAC. Northwind used to be in Liao space after the League collapsed, and they where a merc unit Fiercly Loyal to Liao until Hanse Davion convinced them to go turncoat in exchange for a permanent assignment garrisoning their home world "Northwind."

[Spr1ggan]

Would also like to add that in my opinion, both the Federated Suns and Lyran Commonwealth contain British empire aspects. Davion have the pound currency and constitutional monarchy and Steiner have the whole social general thing. Which Britain was well known for, historically we had some horrendous officers due to this. During the first world war the Germans referred to the British military as lions led by lambs. Add to that, that the Lyrans are a very mercantile faction as was the British Empire, I believe it was Napoleon that referred to Britain as a nation run by shopkeepers.

Edited by McHarg, 26 November 2013 - 11:05 AM.

[Odanan]

McHarg, on 26 November 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

Would also like to add that in my opinion, both the Federated Suns and Lyran Commonwealth contain British empire aspects. Davion have the pound currency and constitutional monarchy and Steiner have the whole social general thing. Which Britain was well known for, historically we had some horrendous officers due to this. During the first world war the Germans referred to the British military as lions led by lambs. Add to that, that the Lyrans are a very mercantile faction as was the British Empire, I believe it was Napoleon that referred to Britain as a nation run by shopkeepers.

Lyrans are also somewhat similar to the Austria-Hungarian Empire.

[Spr1ggan]

Aye, I would say probably a mish mash of British Empire, Germany, and Austria-Hungary. Whereas the Fed Suns would be a mix of British Empire, French Empire, and the United States.

[SpiralFace]

Davion is very French on the entire "royalty owned corporations." And idea that they are a "free" democratic people, but everyone in a position of power is from a few "ruling" familiys at almost every level of governing.

Most of their social structure is based on more western EU style of living that skews more on the french side of the equation.

They skew more on the American side when it comes to their Militarism and overall outlook on the military as a central pillar of their society.

[RichAC]

Rogue Jedi, on 26 November 2013 - 04:35 AM, said:

Sorry, I saw some factual problems with that paragraph, and felt the need to point them out.

Humans may have evolved in Africa, but we cannot be sure of that (especially as evolution is still just a theory), however all life most certainly did not begin on Africa, point of fact if we accept the theory of evolution, it suggests life began in water, and continental drift combined with the fossil record tells us life existed long before Africa was formed.

Asia alone has more surface area than Africa so I am unsure what was being said with regards to Africa being "bigger then North America and Europe Australia asia and then some combined".

Evolution is fact and theory. some connections are theories....but its a fact it happens. Just look out how we have evolved from our tiny ancestors even as near as 100s of years ago. Many things contribute to this, such as diet..

.As far as life I mean life on land. animals vegitation etc...

As far as Africa being the biggest continent. I was saying that you could fit north america, Australia and Europe, china india and then some all on the surface area of africa. EVen CSI had an episode on this lol....its a fact. http://tweentribune.com/tween78/how-big-africa-way-bigger-you-think

Maps don't reflect this, one reason mentioned in csi is its just for navigation, but its still the center of the map.

Edited by RichAC, 26 November 2013 - 12:16 PM.

[Odanan]

RichAC, on 26 November 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Evolution is fact and theory. some connections are theories....but its a fact it happens. Just look out how we have evolved from our tiny ancestors even as near as 100s of years ago. Many things contribute to this, such as diet..

.As far as life I mean life on land. animals vegitation etc...

As far as Africa being the biggest continent. I was saying that you could fit north america, Australia and Europe, china india and then some all on the surface area of africa. EVen CSI had an episode on this lol....its a fact. http://tweentribune....r-you-thinkMaps don't reflect this, one reason mentioned in csi is its just for navigation, but its still the center of the map.

It is really big.

[RichAC]

Scromboid, on 26 November 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

OP is trolling and completely racist.

These books were written in the 80s' by various authors who have their own frames of reference and view on the world. This was before the internet (imagine) and before the widespread knowledge/instant media we have today. There is no intentional secret agenda to ignore other races in battletech, not that you really care anyways. All you want to know is where the 'blacks' are at, as you say. I would be shocked if you weren't a 12 y/o white punk in upper middle class suburbia.

Really, what does it matter how someone describes a particular person in a book and how they 'meant' that person's race to be? What is your real point behind all of this? If it was to find a faction you 'belong' in, you are going about it the wrong way. You look at the ideological makeup of the faction, then the heros/leaders and possibly the battlemechs. Focusing on the skin color of anyone is racist by definition. I believe other folks in this thread have given ample information on the various factions including all of the above data and more, yet you still focus on the skin color and eye slant of photos.

I really hope you are just trolling. I know you are racist.

The sooner you learn that, the better our entire world will be.

I'm not racist, far from it...

Just striking an interesting discussion that might make the game more popular. Your post on the other hand...

I find many of the posts here very interesting, I am going to start reading the books.

Edited by RichAC, 26 November 2013 - 12:28 PM.

[Gallowglas]

RichAC, on 25 November 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

I know there is not many black people that play pc games

I know an awful lot that do. They're not as rare as you might think. Short of everyone announcing "Hey guys! I'm [INSERT ETHNICITY]!" at the start of every match, how do you know? And, honestly, why would they since it's not relevant to anything? A mechwarrior is a mechwarrior.

Edited by Gallowglas, 26 November 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[Cimarb]

Runs With Scissors, on 25 November 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

Comstar always seemed more like America, they are in every faction (like American military bases) and while they keep the other factions in balance they are constantly messing with them and no one really likes them. Heh, maybe the WOB is actually the South which did rise again!

That's actually a really good analogy I hadn't thought of. Comstar is usually tossed into the "religion" bucket without thought, so I like your slant on it.

Scromboid, on 26 November 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

Really, what does it matter how someone describes a particular person in a book and how they 'meant' that person's race to be? What is your real point behind all of this? If it was to find a faction you 'belong' in, you are going about it the wrong way. You look at the ideological makeup of the faction, then the heros/leaders and possibly the battlemechs. Focusing on the skin color of anyone is racist by definition. I believe other folks in this thread have given ample information on the various factions including all of the above data and more, yet you still focus on the skin color and eye slant of photos.

I really hope you are just trolling. I know you are racist.

The sooner you learn that, the better our entire world will be.

RichAC, on 26 November 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

I'm not racist, far from it...

Just striking an interesting discussion that might make the game more popular. Your post on the other hand...

I find many of the posts here very interesting, I am going to start reading the books.

Whether you want to admit it or not, you are racist in your original post and several following posts. I am glad you posted, because this is a really good conversation, but it is despite your racism, not due to it.

This is the 21st century and we are all on the Internet. The only way anyone will know what race and/or nationality you are is if you tell them yourself. As you can see, there are a lot of "blacks" that have posted here, but not a single one of them could have been picked out of a match in game as anything but mech warriors - race does not matter until you MAKE it matter.

Again, it caused a great discussion, but that doesn't make your original statements any less racist. I'm just glad this community rose above it and made something worth reading. I also think it is great that you are reading a lot of the history to BT because of this - there is an Atlas worth of information out there, so it should keep you busy for a long time! (Also, if you want to read a lot of the books, you can get most of them online at epubbud.com)

[RichAC]

Gallowglas, on 26 November 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

I know an awful lot that do. They're not as rare as you might think. Short of everyone announcing "Hey guys! I'm [INSERT ETHNICITY]!" at the start of every match, how do you know?

lol whos trolling now? When the N word was thrown around so much in quake and counterstrike years ago...I doubt there were many.

I've never met any in pc gaming in 20 years. On vent or TS you get to know people. I know they are out there though lol. We got two who posted in this thread suppsedly, so they do exist...lol

I was just curious if the fact no african countries or languages were mentioned in the factions description were a reflection of this and though PGI could do a better job including everyone.

I was corrected and this thread did a good job, I find your post more defensive then anything and that might be telling...

Why don't you rise above yourself now and bow out.

Edited by RichAC, 26 November 2013 - 01:03 PM.

[Gallowglas]

RichAC, on 26 November 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

lol whos trolling now? When the N word was thrown around so much in quake and counterstrike years ago...I doubt there were many.

I've never met any in pc gaming in 20 years. On vent or TS you get to know people. I know they are out there though lol. We got two who posted in this thread suppsedly, so they do exist...lol

I was just curious if the fact no african countries or languages were mentioned in the factions description were a reflection of this..... But i was corrected.

I'm not trolling at all. I have at least 6 black friends (including a girl) who actively play various board, rpg, and video games with me. Heck, several have been gaming buddies of mine for years. Yes, I have been in games where the N word has been thrown around in their presence and they usually just have kept quiet about it. It's really unfortunate that more of us don't pick up the gauntlet for them to put that nonsense to rest. Why we still live in a world where people actively care about which of us Sneetches have stars upon thars, I will never understand.

Edited by Gallowglas, 26 November 2013 - 01:03 PM.

[RichAC]

Gallowglas, on 26 November 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

I'm not trolling at all. I have at least 6 black friends (including a girl) who actively play various board, rpg, and video games with me. Heck, several have been gaming buddies of mine for years. Yes, I have been in games where the N word has been thrown around in their presence and they usually just have kept quiet about it. It's really unfortunate that more of us don't pick up the gauntlet for them to put that nonsense to rest. Why we still live in a world where people actively care about which of us Sneetches have stars upon thars, I will never understand.

"I'm not racist I have black friends" ya thats the typical response. Apparenlty they don't play MWO though?
I asked a legitimate question when every other "culture" in the game is mentioned on the webpage except the biggest continent in the world, the only one that will be left in the future lol... again, the fact you consider that racist is telling....

But alot of forum posters gave some reasonable explanations and insights into the story that I found intriguing and should make black people feel included.

Edited by RichAC, 26 November 2013 - 01:17 PM.

[Gallowglas]

RichAC, on 26 November 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

\I find your post more defensive then anything and that might be telling...

Why don't you rise above yourself now and bow out.

I don't even understand what you mean. How am I being defensive? Why should I just bow out? Because my own anecdotal experience differs from yours? I wasn't being defensive or saying anyone is wrong. I was just offering a reason why there may be a more varied gaming culture than you'd think. Granted, I wish we had more. Gaming is a great medium upon which to celebrate our commonality instead of dwell on our differences.