63 replies to this topic

[Tao1st420]

So, I like to play energy builds quite a bit, but it seems that after trying to fix ppc spamming with the crazy heat index that energy builds are just a waste of time (with the possible exception of lighter mechs). It seems to me the ppc's could have been solved by adding weight or slots to them without nerfing other energy builds by having this crazy heat algebra going on. Perhaps the beam weapons just need some adjustment, idk. Perhaps it's a tactics problem on my part. Ballistic weapons are supposed to be nasty good weapons, but it seems lopsided at this point. Am I the only one thinking this?

[FupDup]

The all-around best builds in the game right now actually mix ballistics with larger energy weapons.

[D04S02B04]

Energy builds are viable but people do not understand how to use them. Most of the outcry regarding ACs are by players with poorer skills who do not adapt well to the meta, the map or do not have efficient builds.

Viable energy combinations are:

4x LLs
2x PPC + JJ
2x LL + 2x ML (Balanced Medium Range & Close Range Firepower)

I have used 2x PPC + 2x ML on a CN-9AL to good effect as well.

The main issue affecting energy builds are really:

1. non-viable weapons (i.e. Pulse Lasers)
2. poor heat efficiency - theres no point carrying a ton of lasers if u can't fire them relatively cool
3. bad usage - there are tons of people who carries ER LL and fires them at <300m...
4. Maps mostly discouraging energy builds (e.g. Tourmaline, Terra Therma, general obstacle placement favouring pop-tarting/high mounted ACs)

EDIT: Maximising the use of energy builds often requires you to combine them with a ballistic or missile, completing a long range or short range deficiency.

Edited by D04S02B04, 26 November 2013 - 06:28 PM.

[Purlana]

Most long range builds still use PPCs + ACs...?
Brawler builds use MLs / ACs / SRMs?

Edited by Purlana, 26 November 2013 - 07:52 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

current meta is to sandwich AC's and PPCs together, usually on a JJ platform.

some common combos:
PPC,PPC,UAC,UAC
PPC,PPC,AC5,AC5
PPC,PPC,A20
PPC,PPC,AC10

The main idea being to have a 30 or 40pt alpha + jump jets.

Mechs without JJ capability but also have high mounted hardpoints like the Jager or the Stalker also make good ac dakka and laser boats. They can at least hill hump well.

Mix builds having no jump jets with, lasers, srms, and LRMs known as "traditional" or "bracket builds" will work more and more poorly as you climb the ELO ladder.

Think Tribes with Jetpacks or Quake with rocket jumping.

As for ACs being really good, they just compliment PPCs really well because you avoid ghost heat mixing them.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 26 November 2013 - 10:24 PM.

[DaZur]

The mantra exalted by those in the know and not committed to the meta is ... "Use what works for you".

If you're top-tier and have grand aspirations of being a competitive e-sport driven player (Or don't wish to handicap your team), by all means capitulate to the norm and seek out the latest "go-to" top-tier FOTM.

That said, If you're just playing for fun, find what works, regardless of which camp you subscribe to... be it energy or ballistics.

When you've decided... take the time to learn that build, it's strength and weaknesses... and accept that you will lose roughly the same number of matches as won...

[Alexandrix]

Buy a highlander or victor.mount 2xppc+ac20.Add some JJ's.Join the rest of the meta/fotm humping crowd.

[BUDFORCE]

Energy boats work, and can be deadly.

You have no ammo to worry about, energy weapons are generally MUCH lighter then ballistics for similar damage weapons.

They don't have travel time, have pin point accuracy, well apart from PPCs obviously.

You just gotta make your mech as heat stable as possible which means adding a huge amount of heat sinks, and when you build your mech, focus on heat stability almost more then anything else. Dont try to fill every energy slot if it makes the mech too hot, remember you don't HAVE to fill every hardpoint.

Also don't stand toe to toe with a ballistic brawler, they have much higher DPS then you, but what you will probably have over them is a faster, higher more accurate alpha.

You just gotta adjust your tactics.

[stjobe]

Using the PPC as evidence that energy weapons are okay is rather spurious; it is not an energy weapon other than in name.

It behaves exactly like a ballistic weapon and that's why it's so popular; back before Ghost Heat it was a weapon with most of the benefits of the ballistic weapons (pin-point damage, long range, high speed) without most the drawbacks (low weight, no ammo dependency). It even had reduced heat (although that's been remedied since).

Personally, I'd like to see the PPC re-worked to be an actual energy weapon with a short beam, just like it's supposed to be according to lore. I'd also would like to see the ACs become actual burst-fire weapons; also like they're supposed to be according to lore.

[Castiel88]

I run an atlas ECM 2 with 2xPPC and an AC20 does me fine

I do agree that running a pure energy build on bigger mechs is pointless due to heat, you just don't maintain a good damage over time.

I do think its only matter of time til AC20 is nerfed

[Urdasein]

Alexandrix, on 26 November 2013 - 11:05 PM, said:

Buy a highlander or victor.mount 2xppc+ac20.Add some JJ's.Join the rest of the meta/fotm humping crowd.

Or take a stalker, put 4 ERlarge lasers and 24 DHS and then aim for the shoulders of highlanders. But yeah... 24 DHS... for a meh overall dps.

Not competitive, very boring if dropped in lighweighted teams (they leave you alone), still fun paired with a DDC.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d00d7ad55430ff2

But yeah, ATM the general balance tend toward more brawl / ACish.

My answer to that is AC40: do severe damage before engaging dogfight... But i don't play only that of course.

If it got nerfed and tend more and more toward brawl, i will just play something else.


Any way, nerfing the stopping power of weapon will force/allow player to get in close combat. Highering the stopping power will force player to take cover and play carefully with plenty of poptarting.

Both are stupid boring gameplay so balance is very important.

Edited by loupgaroupoilu, 27 November 2013 - 04:08 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Energy boats such as the Hunchback Swayback are pretty nice. I still like using my Swayback, awesome power and great speed. You might say that energy weapons are only good if boated, but then again, that is the case with ballistics or missiles as well too.

I agree ballistics are a bit nicer. Pinpoint, front loaded damage with little heat is nice. Still, I have ran some nice energy boat builds (even my T-Bolt with 4LMasers and 3ERLLasers) are pretty nice.

In the current build enviroment though, I still say the best is a good blend. My Cat K2 is nice because the combination of 2 A/C10s and 4MLasers make for a great 1...2...combo. The ballistics are good for the big damage and stripping armor, and the follow-up energy weapon shot to hit that exposed internals.

[ReguIus]

25% less ammo per ton would be a good start. This game's heat system needs a total redesign still. This 1,4 "double" heat sink {Scrap} with all the Ghost Heat and whatnot is just amateurish.

[Mudhutwarrior]

My top numbers mechs are gun boats and honestly they are boring builds. Though some energy builds work, the range is too narrow and I feel they should tweak beam duration some and definitely stop with the pulse nerf. Its all DPS in hot matches and nothing brings it like ballistics.

Some players run energy boats well but for new players and those who are not as sharp they are a death sentence. I guess it depends if the game is built for most players or only the top tier. Those at the top will do well throwing cans of cat food so its silly to always cater to them. No better people there to adapt and overcome. My hats off to them. Just don't be selfish because if you always call the rules no one will want to play.

[Urdasein]

Quote

The ballistics are good for the big damage and stripping armor, and the follow-up energy weapon shot to hit that exposed internals.

I would say the opposite since lasers do damage to all internals at the same time. I can be wrong. I'm curious to hear experienced players.

[Joseph Mallan]

FupDup, on 26 November 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

The all-around best builds in the game right now actually mix ballistics with larger energy weapons.

The only reason this is true is that we are still hampered b how effective ECM is on Missiles. Otherwise we could take the holy trinity without fear that 1/3 our firepower is dead weight.

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 November 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

The only reason this is true is that we are still hampered b how effective ECM is on Missiles. Otherwise we could take the holy trinity without fear that 1/3 our firepower is dead weight.

THIS

When you mix direct fire weapons with LRMs you need TAG - that is reducing your ability to hurt your enemy.
AS7-K
And in the end you have a Mech - that is not able to beat LRM Boats - because two AMS won't stop enough missiles when 60 or more missiles fall down at you every 4-5 seconds.
You can not stop the Brawler to get close - nor are you able to win a sniper duell

Gauss and LRM20 were a great combination in Closed Beta - but it is complete useless now. and the AS7-K is one of the least useable Atlas

[MeiSooHaityu]

loupgaroupoilu, on 27 November 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

I would say the opposite since lasers do damage to all internals at the same time. I can be wrong. I'm curious to hear experienced players.

Armor is destroyed first, then internals take damage. The Flamer is an exception to this rule (it will roast internals but leave armor intact), but it is so ineffective at accomplishing this, it really isn't worth using. Some weapons like the MGs and LBXs do extra critical damage to internals (increased chance to destroy weapons or equipment), but the armor still needs to be gone before this can take effect.

I say the energy weapons like lasers are a good follow-up because...

Say I hit a mech with a dual A/C10 blast. His RH side torso looses what armor it has left and internals in that location turns red. If I was only running ballistics, I have to wait for hit to re-expose his RH torso and even then, I might miss and hit CT, arm, or nothing at all. Since the lasers have a beam durration, even if I initially hit the CT, I can sweep the laser to the RH torso and destroy it (possibly destroying the mech in the process).

It was why, even with my dual Gauss K2, I liked carrying 2MLasers.

It is a preference thing though (2MLasers = 2 tons of ammo), but I felt it was worth it.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 27 November 2013 - 08:47 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 27 November 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

THIS

When you mix direct fire weapons with LRMs you need TAG - that is reducing your ability to hurt your enemy.
AS7-K
And in the end you have a Mech - that is not able to beat LRM Boats - because two AMS won't stop enough missiles when 60 or more missiles fall down at you every 4-5 seconds.
You can not stop the Brawler to get close - nor are you able to win a sniper duell

Gauss and LRM20 were a great combination in Closed Beta - but it is complete useless now. and the AS7-K is one of the least useable Atlas

To be fair. MW:O AMS is leaps and bounds better than TT. I would NEVER equip them using the official rules!

[stjobe]

MeiSooHaityu, on 27 November 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

Armor is destroyed first, then internals take damage. The Flamer is an exception to this rule (it will roast internals but leave armor intact)

Since when did Flamers do through-armour damage?

MeiSooHaityu, on 27 November 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

I say the energy weapons like lasers are a good follow-up because...

Please be advised that lasers have a beam duration and their damage is applied evenly during that duration; if you hit with 1/5th of a laser beam, you do 1/5th the damage (and 1/5th crit damage).

Now 1/5th may be better than 0 but it's a lot less than 1.