87 replies to this topic

[D04S02B04]

Short Introduction - Read "Playing to win" first
I remember discussing with a friend and he emphasized the difference between a noob and a newbie. The newbie is a new player who has yet to understand the game but the noob, is a player who has played the game for a long time and refuse to improve citing reasons whether justified or not, often moral in nature.

I first started competitive gaming in Company Of Heroes online in ranked 1v1 but despite all my knowledge of real military strategy I could never break through lvl 10 (in CoH, rankings are competitive) and I read this article posted by someone else on Gamereplays COH Forums about why I'm a noob/scrub. I recommend everyone who wants to stop being a noob to read it.

http://www.sirlin.ne...win-part-1.html

I was held back precisely by my idea of "balance" and "military realism" and soon after, I broke into the top 100 ranking. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to play 8 hours a day as going up in levels requires you to earn sufficients wins and w/l ratios but I can say in hindsight I've beatened a ranked 13 player so I'm definitely somewhere up there.

MWO is Pay To Win
First of all, MWO is pay to win. There are many people out there who will contest this notion with antiquated arguments. I'll however, present very different reasons why MWO is pay to win. Assuming you're a good player, who is willing to learn, observe and experiment, you're often a mature player as well. This means we have other things to deal with in life like: cooking, doing the laundry, having a job or career, further studies etc. This leaves you with barely 2 hours a weekday, maybe 16 hours per gaming stretch on weekend (8 hrs a day) and that's assuming you don't have a life outside of MWO (read -> MWO is my 2nd job).

A Mech is non-competitive without Double Heat Sinks and sometimes an XL engine. Mechs can cost anywhere between 2 million - 10 million cbills and after fitting out with DHS and some weapons, they would run at 4 million - 12 million cbills + additional costs as you continually tweak and customise (EndoSteel + Artemis). Mechlab is theoretical performance, you need actual ingame evidence.

If you hit 150k cbills per match like a pro, an average match takes 10-15mins (incl. of search time, ready up time, play time, load out time), that means you can only earn 600k - 900k cbills per hour. With your limited time of 26 hrs per week (assuming you're playing MWO exclusively), you can grind up 15.6 million - 23.4 million cbills, enough to buy and customise 2-3 mech variants, earn your elite bonuses and call it a day. That's the best case scenario.

Statistics first...

WarHippy, on 10 October 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

While not the full data set they did give us the income data and it is pretty bad.

• Average match time is 8.4 minutes.
  
• Average CB/match is 79,069.
  
• Average CB/hour is 564,778 if you only have 1 BattleMech to use.
  
• New players can earn 7,981,686 in cadet bonuses during their first 3.5 hours in addition to between 1-3 million in regular game earnings

If you're the average player you're earning only 565k cbills per hour. I use 10 million cbills as the approximate mark for full customisations (Light Mechs need XL, Endosteel, DHS and maybe even Ferrofibrous, Med Mechs just DHS and Endosteel, maybe XL and Heavy/Assault Mechs mostly just DHS but endosteel/XL situationally).

That's almost 18 hours of WORK there. Welcome to your 2nd job.

Personally, I think this will be the main reason why MWO will not last. This generation of modern gamers do not understand the trials of insanely difficult platformers.

http://ultimategamed...uls%20Comic.jpg
This comic sums it up perfectly. Go find out about Dark Souls if you want to know what is... difficulty. Just imagine that Dark Souls is actually easy once you mastered it. The old platformers, even when mastered, are still extremely difficult to play.

Why Buy Mechs?
First of all, the more varieties of mechs you play, the faster you improve, the more you learn about different play styles, what works what doesn't work and you apply mentalities across different mechs etc. The more you're stuck grinding up on a single mech (even though free), the more restricted you are to a single playstyle, non-stop repetition and you learn nothing new.

Your time is precious (unless you don't have a job). 1 Mech is 1 hours work worth of pay vs 10 hours grind for me. Alternatively, you can go premium time + hero mechs (30% bonus) which stacks going for a total of 95% increase in cbill earnings, almost halving that time.

With that I'm able to try almost all the whine that people on the forums are screaming about and I will address that shortly. I bought the Spider-5K(C), the Atlas DDC, Highlander, Jaegermech (the only mech I bought on cbills apart from my first Centurion), Victor etc and you learn just how... "unviable" they really are.

Poptart Snipers
http://mwomercs.com/...-poptartonline/
That thread got me going. Poptart snipers are exceedingly easy to beat. You have 2 choices:

Decent Range & Fire on poptart from good position
1. Learn to read maps. Granted this isn't in your standard topographic map with contour lines... you can still identify hills and lines of fire.
2. Manoeuvre to said position and proceed to fire on pop tart sniper.

Reasoning: I've played Victor as a poptart sniper with AC20/SRM combination and dual PPC combination. It is effective up to 300m and requires highly accurate twitch reflex at 400m. Thereafter the probability of hitting is too low. If you're loaded with large lasers (almost any mech can load this), you can fire on them at 450m behind cover (no LRM rain) and the poptart snipers will have a hard time hitting a small target (just ur arm, or barely the peak of ur upper torso) if done right. If you look at what the player in the video was doing, he is carrying ACs which has an effective distance ranging from 450m - 620m (AC10, AC5), firing out the "side" of a slope instead of over the top of the slope to maximise his mech's effectiveness and camping infront of a pop tart sniper??? Of course you lose.

Close range strong DPS & Brawling skills
1. Use terrain cover, torso twisting, zig zag running and manoeuvre up to said target
2. Proceed to obliterate tart with MLaser and SRMs.

Reasoning: A single PPC poptart is not very effective pay-off. I would say 2 PPC + Jumpjet would work better and that's working out to be 14 tons + 2-8 tons of jumpjets, not counting other weapons he may have. He can't shoot below 90m. If he can, he is using ER PPC which has even worse heat issues, or he has some secondary weapons which wouldn't be very effective anyway.

PPC / ERPPC = 2.50 DPS
Mlaser = 1.25 DPS
SRM6 = 3.00 DPS

A Centurion 9A with 2 ML, 3SRM6 is 11.50 DPS vs 5.00 DPS + backup weapons. Guess who wins? Don't forget if you're running tonnage efficient weapons you will also have a fast movespeed, allowing you to dodge and close distance fast.

High Alpha Meta
Again a huge stupid thread.

Decent Range & Fire on scary brawler from good position
1. Equip Large Lasers / ACs / PPC
2. Fight only at your effective range and maintain distance.

Reasoning: I find it stupid whenever I see people with ACs or even ER Large lasers charging all the way up to the enemy at 200m to shoot them. You can deal full damage at 450m and above... why go close in???

Close range strong DPS & Brawling skills
1. Equip Damage - Heat efficient weapons like ACs / SRMs
2. Use terrain cover, torso twisting, zig zag running and manoeuvre up to said target
3. Proceed to obliterate tart.

If you look at a lot of the builds on mech loadouts etc. You'll see that all of them despite their high alpha abilities have really poor heat efficiency. Guess what? It doesn't matter if you take a full alpha at some point in the torso. They'll be stuck trying to manage their heat while you happily plink them anyway. There was a poster who wrote on the concept of Steady Stream Philosophy which works on similar principles but needs tweaking.

The current long range meta that everyone is raving about is extremely dumb and only works because players are stupid and timid. Again, Large Lasers, PPCs have very poor DPS and HPS but if you stay at long range and let them shoot off a shot every 6 seconds or so, they'll have zero heat efficiency issues and let's just say even a DPS of 0.01 can grow to a very big number if you give them unlimited amount of time to deal damage.

The OP AC!
Admitted the AC is rather powerful in its current form. I've even looked up TT rules and stuff to try to understand why it is OP. The basic idea of fighting the AC is this. The AC has the WORSE, absolute WORSE Damage per Ton and the medium laser has the highest damage per ton.

Beating the AC is a matter of going "High Alpha Strike" with fast speed. Go in close, drop off your alpha and run to cover. Rinse and repeat. His high DPS isn't going to work if you're not exposing your target.

Conclusion
Being able to have multiple mechs to deal with the current players online at that point in time is important. I have loadouts for dealing with Light Mech Wolfpacks, Long Range Meta, Gauss Snipers etc. You name it, I have a counter. Play that counter, you win, simple as that.

[Fuerchtegott]

Even considering competive gameplay in MWO at this state, is there a greater sign of noobism possible?

[FearTheAmish]

<clap> i think i love you . This thread so much this thread....

EDIT: also on the noobs v newbs article you brought up i love it. Applies to most of the "well its not a real BT build" folks and its funny how they dont see they are handicaping themselves. I enjoy winning so thats what i play to do, while occasionally i will roll around in goofy builds they are mostly to test things.

Edited by FearTheAmish, 24 October 2013 - 03:42 PM.

[Hellcat420]

D04S02B04, on 24 October 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

Short Introduction - Read "Playing to win" first
I remember discussing with a friend and he emphasized the difference between a noob and a newbie. The newbie is a new player who has yet to understand the game but the noob, is a player who has played the game for a long time and refuse to improve citing reasons whether justified or not, often moral in nature.

I first started competitive gaming in Company Of Heroes online in ranked 1v1 but despite all my knowledge of real military strategy I could never break through lvl 10 (in CoH, rankings are competitive) and I read this article posted by someone else on Gamereplays COH Forums about why I'm a noob/scrub. I recommend everyone who wants to stop being a noob to read it.

http://www.sirlin.ne...win-part-1.html

I was held back precisely by my idea of "balance" and "military realism" and soon after, I broke into the top 100 ranking. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to play 8 hours a day as going up in levels requires you to earn sufficients wins and w/l ratios but I can say in hindsight I've beatened a ranked 13 player so I'm definitely somewhere up there.

MWO is Pay To Win
First of all, MWO is pay to win. There are many people out there who will contest this notion with antiquated arguments. I'll however, present very different reasons why MWO is pay to win. Assuming you're a good player, who is willing to learn, observe and experiment, you're often a mature player as well. This means we have other things to deal with in life like: cooking, doing the laundry, having a job or career, further studies etc. This leaves you with barely 2 hours a weekday, maybe 16 hours per gaming stretch on weekend (8 hrs a day) and that's assuming you don't have a life outside of MWO (read -> MWO is my 2nd job).

A Mech is non-competitive without Double Heat Sinks and sometimes an XL engine. Mechs can cost anywhere between 2 million - 10 million cbills and after fitting out with DHS and some weapons, they would run at 4 million - 12 million cbills + additional costs as you continually tweak and customise (EndoSteel + Artemis). Mechlab is theoretical performance, you need actual ingame evidence.

If you hit 150k cbills per match like a pro, an average match takes 10-15mins (incl. of search time, ready up time, play time, load out time), that means you can only earn 600k - 900k cbills per hour. With your limited time of 26 hrs per week (assuming you're playing MWO exclusively), you can grind up 15.6 million - 23.4 million cbills, enough to buy and customise 2-3 mech variants, earn your elite bonuses and call it a day. That's the best case scenario.

Statistics first...


If you're the average player you're earning only 565k cbills per hour. I use 10 million cbills as the approximate mark for full customisations (Light Mechs need XL, Endosteel, DHS and maybe even Ferrofibrous, Med Mechs just DHS and Endosteel, maybe XL and Heavy/Assault Mechs mostly just DHS but endosteel/XL situationally).

That's almost 18 hours of WORK there. Welcome to your 2nd job.

Personally, I think this will be the main reason why MWO will not last. This generation of modern gamers do not understand the trials of insanely difficult platformers.

http://ultimategamed...uls%20Comic.jpg
This comic sums it up perfectly. Go find out about Dark Souls if you want to know what is... difficulty. Just imagine that Dark Souls is actually easy once you mastered it. The old platformers, even when mastered, are still extremely difficult to play.

Why Buy Mechs?
First of all, the more varieties of mechs you play, the faster you improve, the more you learn about different play styles, what works what doesn't work and you apply mentalities across different mechs etc. The more you're stuck grinding up on a single mech (even though free), the more restricted you are to a single playstyle, non-stop repetition and you learn nothing new.

Your time is precious (unless you don't have a job). 1 Mech is 1 hours work worth of pay vs 10 hours grind for me. Alternatively, you can go premium time + hero mechs (30% bonus) which stacks going for a total of 95% increase in cbill earnings, almost halving that time.

With that I'm able to try almost all the whine that people on the forums are screaming about and I will address that shortly. I bought the Spider-5K©, the Atlas DDC, Highlander, Jaegermech (the only mech I bought on cbills apart from my first Centurion), Victor etc and you learn just how... "unviable" they really are.

Poptart Snipers
http://mwomercs.com/...-poptartonline/
That thread got me going. Poptart snipers are exceedingly easy to beat. You have 2 choices:

Decent Range & Fire on poptart from good position
1. Learn to read maps. Granted this isn't in your standard topographic map with contour lines... you can still identify hills and lines of fire.
2. Manoeuvre to said position and proceed to fire on pop tart sniper.

Reasoning: I've played Victor as a poptart sniper with AC20/SRM combination and dual PPC combination. It is effective up to 300m and requires highly accurate twitch reflex at 400m. Thereafter the probability of hitting is too low. If you're loaded with large lasers (almost any mech can load this), you can fire on them at 450m behind cover (no LRM rain) and the poptart snipers will have a hard time hitting a small target (just ur arm, or barely the peak of ur upper torso) if done right. If you look at what the player in the video was doing, he is carrying ACs which has an effective distance ranging from 450m - 620m (AC10, AC5), firing out the "side" of a slope instead of over the top of the slope to maximise his mech's effectiveness and camping infront of a pop tart sniper??? Of course you lose.

Close range strong DPS & Brawling skills
1. Use terrain cover, torso twisting, zig zag running and manoeuvre up to said target
2. Proceed to obliterate tart with MLaser and SRMs.

Reasoning: A single PPC poptart is not very effective pay-off. I would say 2 PPC + Jumpjet would work better and that's working out to be 14 tons + 2-8 tons of jumpjets, not counting other weapons he may have. He can't shoot below 90m. If he can, he is using ER PPC which has even worse heat issues, or he has some secondary weapons which wouldn't be very effective anyway.

PPC / ERPPC = 2.50 DPS
Mlaser = 1.25 DPS
SRM6 = 3.00 DPS

A Centurion 9A with 2 ML, 3SRM6 is 11.50 DPS vs 5.00 DPS + backup weapons. Guess who wins? Don't forget if you're running tonnage efficient weapons you will also have a fast movespeed, allowing you to dodge and close distance fast.

High Alpha Meta
Again a huge stupid thread.

Decent Range & Fire on scary brawler from good position
1. Equip Large Lasers / ACs / PPC
2. Fight only at your effective range and maintain distance.

Reasoning: I find it stupid whenever I see people with ACs or even ER Large lasers charging all the way up to the enemy at 200m to shoot them. You can deal full damage at 450m and above... why go close in???

Close range strong DPS & Brawling skills
1. Equip Damage - Heat efficient weapons like ACs / SRMs
2. Use terrain cover, torso twisting, zig zag running and manoeuvre up to said target
3. Proceed to obliterate tart.

If you look at a lot of the builds on mech loadouts etc. You'll see that all of them despite their high alpha abilities have really poor heat efficiency. Guess what? It doesn't matter if you take a full alpha at some point in the torso. They'll be stuck trying to manage their heat while you happily plink them anyway. There was a poster who wrote on the concept of Steady Stream Philosophy which works on similar principles but needs tweaking.

The current long range meta that everyone is raving about is extremely dumb and only works because players are stupid and timid. Again, Large Lasers, PPCs have very poor DPS and HPS but if you stay at long range and let them shoot off a shot every 6 seconds or so, they'll have zero heat efficiency issues and let's just say even a DPS of 0.01 can grow to a very big number if you give them unlimited amount of time to deal damage.

The OP AC!
Admitted the AC is rather powerful in its current form. I've even looked up TT rules and stuff to try to understand why it is OP. The basic idea of fighting the AC is this. The AC has the WORSE, absolute WORSE Damage per Ton and the medium laser has the highest damage per ton.

Beating the AC is a matter of going "High Alpha Strike" with fast speed. Go in close, drop off your alpha and run to cover. Rinse and repeat. His high DPS isn't going to work if you're not exposing your target.

Conclusion
Being able to have multiple mechs to deal with the current players online at that point in time is important. I have loadouts for dealing with Light Mech Wolfpacks, Long Range Meta, Gauss Snipers etc. You name it, I have a counter. Play that counter, you win, simple as that.

wow if you have to build different mechs to combat different playstyles you should not be giving any advice to anyone. if you learn to properly build mechs instead of having a bunch of noob builds you can outfit mechs that can handle any playstyle.

[LauLiao]

D04S02B04, on 24 October 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

MWO is Pay To Win
First of all, MWO is pay to win. There are many people out there who will contest this notion with antiquated arguments. I'll however, present very different reasons why MWO is pay to win. Assuming you're a good player, who is willing to learn, observe and experiment, you're often a mature player as well. This means we have other things to deal with in life like: cooking, doing the laundry, having a job or career, further studies etc. This leaves you with barely 2 hours a weekday, maybe 16 hours per gaming stretch on weekend (8 hrs a day) and that's assuming you don't have a life outside of MWO (read -> MWO is my 2nd job).

I stopped reading here. I'm so glad that you know SO much about all our lives that you can tell us exactly how much time we have to play.

[FearTheAmish]

Hellcat420, on 24 October 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

wow if you have to build different mechs to combat different playstyles you should not be giving any advice to anyone. if you learn to properly build mechs instead of having a bunch of noob builds you can outfit mechs that can handle any playstyle.

Okay not going to shoot you down... yet... But your telling me you can make a mech that can counter.... HGN 2xppc/2xac5, SHD AC20, SPD's, Jenners, LRM boats, ac40 jagers, CTF 2xGuass, Shotgun Atlas, Medium swarms, Light swarms, Stiener Scout lances.....

[Hellcat420]

FearTheAmish, on 24 October 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Okay not going to shoot you down... yet... But your telling me you can make a mech that can counter.... HGN 2xppc/2xac5, SHD AC20, SPD's, Jenners, LRM boats, ac40 jagers, CTF 2xGuass, Shotgun Atlas, Medium swarms, Light swarms, Stiener Scout lances.....

ive been doing it for months in my highlander733c(the only mech i played for 4-5 months till the phoenix mechs were released). and no i dont poptart or use ppc's on it. the mech build doesnt matter that much. knowing how to pilot your mech is what matters most. you can have the most uberl33t meta mech in existance, but it wont mean squat if you cant pilot it well. there is one downside to using a single chassis for awhile like i tend to do. when you finaly do switch to another chassis it takes a bit to get used to piloting something else once you are used to how your normal mech handles.

Edited by Hellcat420, 24 October 2013 - 04:33 PM.

[D04S02B04]

Hellcat420, on 24 October 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

ive been doing it for months in my highlander733c(the only mech i played for 4-5 months till the phoenix mechs were released). and no i dont poptart or use ppc's on it.

FearTheAmish, on 24 October 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Okay not going to shoot you down... yet... But your telling me you can make a mech that can counter.... HGN 2xppc/2xac5, SHD AC20, SPD's, Jenners, LRM boats, ac40 jagers, CTF 2xGuass, Shotgun Atlas, Medium swarms, Light swarms, Stiener Scout lances.....

It's okay. Haters gonna hate. The 733C looks good on paper but has some of the worse mobility and vision in the game so you can imagine the level this person is playing at if he actually thinks the 733C is viable for say hunting light mechs and front line fighting at the same time.

LauLiao, on 24 October 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

I stopped reading here. I'm so glad that you know SO much about all our lives that you can tell us exactly how much time we have to play.

I used to get annoyed whenever I receive comments like this. Then I found out that I could find out about people by looking at their facebook page... or in this case, looking at the quality of your post and your history. I'm very happy for you = )

[Hellcat420]

D04S02B04, on 24 October 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

It's okay. Haters gonna hate. The 733C looks good on paper but has some of the worse mobility and vision in the game so you can imagine the level this person is playing at if he actually thinks the 733C is viable for say hunting light mechs and front line fighting at the same time.



I used to get annoyed whenever I receive comments like this. Then I found out that I could find out about people by looking at their facebook page... or in this case, looking at the quality of your post and your history. I'm very happy for you = )

the 733c works just fine in practice. i killed and demoralized light packs all of the time when i was running this mech. i see a lot of top end players when i drop, but i dont ever remember seeing you in a match.

[FearTheAmish]

Hellcat420, on 24 October 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

ive been doing it for months in my highlander733c(the only mech i played for 4-5 months till the phoenix mechs were released). and no i dont poptart or use ppc's on it. the mech build doesnt matter that much. knowing how to pilot your mech is what matters most. you can have the most uberl33t meta mech in existance, but it wont mean squat if you cant pilot it well. there is one downside to using a single chassis for awhile like i tend to do. when you finaly do switch to another chassis it takes a bit to get used to piloting something else once you are used to how your normal mech handles.

While i do agree that you can become comfortable and skilled in a certain mech (i played a HGN 732 for about 2 months straight. Highlander Camo 1xERPPC 1xGauss 2xPPC 2x SRM4), and with this mech i was proficient at taking just about anything. I would never say i was a hard counter to everything, as opposed to a soft counter. OP is refering to hard counters which can be performed by even the less skilled. A good example is a Kintaro with streaks is a hard counter to lights, or a AC20 SHD-5M is a counter to jump snipers. While skill with a mech can take you far not everyone has those skills with a mech or with Mechwarrior at all. This is where we get the X killed me in Y so nerf X threads come from, which the op is directly trying to quash.

[Hellcat420]

FearTheAmish, on 24 October 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

While i do agree that you can become comfortable and skilled in a certain mech (i played a HGN 732 for about 2 months straight. Highlander Camo 1xERPPC 1xGauss 2xPPC 2x SRM4), and with this mech i was proficient at taking just about anything. I would never say i was a hard counter to everything, as opposed to a soft counter. OP is refering to hard counters which can be performed by even the less skilled. A good example is a Kintaro with streaks is a hard counter to lights, or a AC20 SHD-5M is a counter to jump snipers. While skill with a mech can take you far not everyone has those skills with a mech or with Mechwarrior at all. This is where we get the X killed me in Y so nerf X threads come from, which the op is directly trying to quash.

a bad pilot will die irreguardless if he is in a hard counter or not. what it comes down to is if the other pilot is better than you, you are going to die 9/10 times and it wont matter what mech you are in. hard counters are not able to bridge anything but small skill gaps.

Edited by Hellcat420, 24 October 2013 - 05:08 PM.

[FearTheAmish]

Hellcat420, on 24 October 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

a bad pilot will die irreguardless if he is in a hard counter or not. what it comes down to is if the other pilot is better than you, you are going to die 9/10 times and it wont matter what mech you are in. hard counters are not able to bridge anything but small skill gaps.

So if we take 2 equally skilled players though and put one in a light mech and another in a light killer.... who would you bet on? i know which one i would.

[101011]

D04S02B04, on 24 October 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

MWO is Pay To Win
First of all, MWO is pay to win. There are many people out there who will contest this notion with antiquated arguments. I'll however, present very different reasons why MWO is pay to win. Assuming you're a good player, who is willing to learn, observe and experiment, you're often a mature player as well. This means we have other things to deal with in life like: cooking, doing the laundry, having a job or career, further studies etc. This leaves you with barely 2 hours a weekday, maybe 16 hours per gaming stretch on weekend (8 hrs a day) and that's assuming you don't have a life outside of MWO (read -> MWO is my 2nd job).

A Mech is non-competitive without Double Heat Sinks and sometimes an XL engine. Mechs can cost anywhere between 2 million - 10 million cbills and after fitting out with DHS and some weapons, they would run at 4 million - 12 million cbills + additional costs as you continually tweak and customise (EndoSteel + Artemis). Mechlab is theoretical performance, you need actual ingame evidence.

If you hit 150k cbills per match like a pro, an average match takes 10-15mins (incl. of search time, ready up time, play time, load out time), that means you can only earn 600k - 900k cbills per hour. With your limited time of 26 hrs per week (assuming you're playing MWO exclusively), you can grind up 15.6 million - 23.4 million cbills, enough to buy and customise 2-3 mech variants, earn your elite bonuses and call it a day. That's the best case scenario.

Statistics first...


If you're the average player you're earning only 565k cbills per hour. I use 10 million cbills as the approximate mark for full customisations (Light Mechs need XL, Endosteel, DHS and maybe even Ferrofibrous, Med Mechs just DHS and Endosteel, maybe XL and Heavy/Assault Mechs mostly just DHS but endosteel/XL situationally).

That's almost 18 hours of WORK there. Welcome to your 2nd job.

Personally, I think this will be the main reason why MWO will not last. This generation of modern gamers do not understand the trials of insanely difficult platformers.

http://ultimategamed...uls%20Comic.jpg
This comic sums it up perfectly. Go find out about Dark Souls if you want to know what is... difficulty. Just imagine that Dark Souls is actually easy once you mastered it. The old platformers, even when mastered, are still extremely difficult to play.

What does this have to do with your actual statement (that people who are whining just need to learn how to play)? Not only do you not actually back up your opening statement (P2W), but the rest of your post has nothing to do with it. In regards to the rest of it, I agree.

[Cool Hwhip]

Speaking as a new(ish) player, I play matches to have fun.
For me the goal of playing matches is not to grind c-bills, but to play Mechwarrior (win or lose, kill or be killed)

I bought my first mech (a cataphract) with my cadet bonus because it seemed like it would be interesting to play. I spent a few c-bills on some weapons that I thought I would enjoy using- which I do.

After trying out one of the trial mechs I found I was enjoying playing a light, so my next few matches had a nice secondary goal- to save up for a jenner. However, this was second to the main goal, which is to stomp around in a mech, shooting other mechs.

To my eyes, if you think of playing matches as "work" to save up for a new mech, you have lost sight of the game, which is to play matches. Everything else revolves around this, and I think many players lose focus on this and instead play the game as if the point is to buy all the mechs you can.

[R Razor]

I'm trying to decide what's funnier, a guy that's been here for exactly 43 days calling someone a N00B or a guy that's been here 43 days trying to convince people that he actually knows how MWO works and how you can be the best at it.

[Chavette]

ITT: Noobs recognizing themselves and getting their jimmies rustled.

#popcorn #tears #getting_offended

[Fuerchtegott]

The P2W is in the following, if you play on a high level against equally high skilled players, and now remeber the income situation, the limited amount of time an adult has and the price of coolant flush (40k cb) and you have an environment where mwo is pay2win.

But on the other hand MWO lacks so much in terms of competive gameplay (ladder, elo rating separate from grindruns for cb and teamplay), that even thinking about it, shows true noobism, as I wrote above.

[ElementalFury]

So how much do I have to pay to win against everyhting?!

[Rasako]

LauLiao, on 24 October 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

I stopped reading here. I'm so glad that you know SO much about all our lives that you can tell us exactly how much time we have to play.

my thoughts exactly, this thread should be closed due to obvious personal attacks and malicious flaming being made by the OP against anyone with a differing opinion relative to his own.

[D04S02B04]

101011, on 24 October 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

What does this have to do with your actual statement (that people who are whining just need to learn how to play)? Not only do you not actually back up your opening statement (P2W), but the rest of your post has nothing to do with it. In regards to the rest of it, I agree.

I should have worded in that point better.

I think Fuerchtegott illustrate a stronger point than I did regarding P2W. Also, Fuerchtegott has very valid points on the problems of the competitiveness of the game. Games that are competitive have longevity (e.g.: Dota, Starcraft). This lack of competitiveness affects everyone alike if they game don't last or better games come in within these few years.

Ultimately everyone is a loser in a Pay 2 Win situation.

Fuerchtegott, on 25 October 2013 - 03:53 AM, said:

The P2W is in the following, if you play on a high level against equally high skilled players, and now remeber the income situation, the limited amount of time an adult has and the price of coolant flush (40k cb) and you have an environment where mwo is pay2win.

...

The massive advantage from a coolant flush means you get a second alpha against an opponent at close quarters. If your mech is well optimised for close quarters, you're talking about an alpha of 60Damage++

The tactical advantage of having a MC paid airstrike/artillery strike is massive. Need to move people out of cover? Jump jet up, fire a volley to distract them + arty strike on their location. Move = dead from your team mates firing on them. Don't move = heavy damage from arty strike.

It's not the win all end all, but it creates a massive tactical advantage.

The main point I want to illustrate is, paying money for MCs allow you a massive advantage over others and accelerates your learning experience massively and provides more counters and options for you. You're free to disagree because people's capability differ significantly. For me, I noticed that massive advantage and I see so many modes of gameplay with different mechs that people simply aren't using to their full potential.

Think about it. Theoretically, everyone could reach the "endgame" and unlock all the mechs with cbills etc but we're all limited by the resource of Time. Given that resource limit of time, the best way to optimise your performance/win streak is to pay. Now granted everyone is not interested in winning, or in playing to win hence why I cited the article, playing to win.

I'm looking to go into 12v12s and see what's it about, if there is really a more indepth gameplay at that level, or is it more of the same.

Hellcat420, on 24 October 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

a bad pilot will die irreguardless if he is in a hard counter or not. what it comes down to is if the other pilot is better than you, you are going to die 9/10 times and it wont matter what mech you are in. hard counters are not able to bridge anything but small skill gaps.

There are pilots who are that uber bad, that counters or not, they still die. Then there's the average pilot who knows roughly how to play. Put him in a spider a patch or two before and watch the whole enemy team run around in chaos. Hard counters do more than small skill gaps.

R Razor, on 25 October 2013 - 03:31 AM, said:

I'm trying to decide what's funnier, a guy that's been here for exactly 43 days calling someone a N00B or a guy that's been here 43 days trying to convince people that he actually knows how MWO works and how you can be the best at it.

Believe it or not, MWO is that easy to figure out.

Marack Drock, on 25 October 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

...

1. I think most new players will not realise the main reason why they died, was simply because of Double Heat Sinks and that people before them are using really OP builds etc (e.g. UAC5 before the nerf at 15% jam rate).

2. Actually for your information, newbies and noobs actually DO NOT know that they are bad. Look up the Dunning Kruger Effect.

http://en.wikipedia....93Kruger_effect
This is an established phenomena that has several journal articles and studies published on it. Also, if you read my post carefully, I'm not at all prejudiced or upset against new players. They are newbies and they want to improve! However, it is the noobs who are the problem. Read my distinction.

I have nothing whatsoever against the new players or noobs. However, when you keep seeing threads popping up on nerfing AC, nerfing poptarts, nerfing everything to oblivion instead of LEARNING how to counter them. Hence I said, read the article = ) it describes it perfectly and I've already explained in clear detail how once can easily beat all these "gimmicks".

3. That's fine you know, you're entitled not to read this thread, not to reply to this thread. The internet is a free place for everyone! If the moderators don't like it, take it down! I don't care. I'm just sharing my 2 cents for those who may find it useful. I certainly found the same critique extremely useful when I was playing COH on gamereplays. A bit of elitism is good for improvement.

4. Strawman argument there. I said nothing about addicted to gaming at all, just saying people should learn to play = )

And like I said, if you wanna have fun like a casual player, THAT'S GREAT! It's different when someone comes online and starts posting NERF AC! NERF POPTARTS! NERF XYZ instead of learning to play.