232 replies to this topic

[YueFei]

PGI, implementing tonnage limits is essentially admitting that you failed to deliver on this feature called "Role Warfare". Simple as that.

[Sandpit]

YueFei, on 23 December 2013 - 12:07 AM, said:

PGI, implementing tonnage limits is essentially admitting that you failed to deliver on this feature called "Role Warfare". Simple as that.

uhm ok lol

[Ensaine]

This idea is totally unnecessary at this time.

How about fixing stuff that's currently broken? <insert LONG LIST HERE>

The last thing PGI needs to do is throw out more stuff that costs money. I mean, you guys really have no common sense by tossing out yet another monetization idea after your Clan Pack debacle.

You want good MM? Go back to formula. What we had in Closed Beta worked better than anything else you guys tried.

Other team has 2 Assaults, our team has 2 Assaults. Etc, and so on. Sprinkle in some ELO, which did NOT exist in CB, and done.

Just to imply monetization for a feature considered standard in most other games, especially after the Clan thing, is just outright insulting.

How about YOU pay if I don't like a map?

Gotta love these staged threads tailor made to imply that PGI is 'engaging the community'.

Edited by Ensaine, 23 December 2013 - 02:38 AM.

[Shadowsword8]

An average 2-3 minutes for the matchmaker to put together 24 players (that's what it takes right now)
60 seconds for phase 1
60 seconds for phase 2
10 seconds for... how is that usefull anyway?

So, about 5 minutes preparation, for an average 6 minutes match? Really?


There is a line behond which trying to get things balanced for a short match just isn't worth the cost, and imho, PGi is already on the wrong side of that line.

[Airborne Thunder]

Deathlike, on 02 December 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

I'm thinking the "shuffle" match thing refers to the maps. For instance, if you hate Mordor Terra Therma, you can P2A (Pay 2 Avoid).

With that said, that seems like a bad idea... some people will pay, and others will just outright ragequit because of the "P2A toll".

It's a terrible idea.

Allow 1 free shuffle (per drop in the public match) AND then use the "Deal with it"/P2A option. That's the best thing for everyone.

So basically all drops are going to be Terra Therma and River City Night by default and if you want to play a "good" map it will cost you.

Edited by Airborne Thunder, 23 December 2013 - 01:35 PM.

[Airborne Thunder]

Why does playing this game have to be so complicated? I just want to play the game. I want to click Launch and without any arguing with other players or playing ebay bid sniper to pick a map get into a match. It is fine the way it is now. There should be a "classic mode" where I don't have to deal with any of this SCRAP. What if I only want to run my Atlas or Battlemaster? Am I going to have to fight with other people in the lobby to get to play mechs I own? What if I want to grind an Assault mech for XP to unlock the Master Module? Am I going to be told "sorry that mech is too heavy, find a different one". If I am reading this correctly there is no way I am spending money on the Clan Collection to only be told my mechs are too heavy and I can't play them. I can tell you right now that if there is a mech I own that I want to play I am going to play it regardless of peer pressure from my teamates. I didn't spend real money on Founders mechs, Phoenix mechs and Hero mechs to be told I can't use them.

Edited by Airborne Thunder, 24 December 2013 - 01:53 AM.

[NRP]

Airborne Thunder, on 23 December 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

Why does playing have to be so complicated? I just want to play the game. It is fine the way it is now. There should be a "classic mode" where I don't have to deal with any of this SCRAP. What if I only want to run my Atlas or Battlemaster? Am I going to have to fight with other people to get to play mechs I own? If I am reading this correctly there is now way I am spending money on the Clan Collection to only be told my mechs are too heavy and I can't play them. I can tell you right now that if there is a mech I own that I want to play I am going to play it.

Yeah, I just bought a $500 gold Dire Wolf. To say I would be upset if I couldn't play it whenever and wherever I wanted would be an understatement. I hope this complex system they've proposed is an entirely separate, self-contained game mode. I honestly don't know much about the lore, so I'm really not interested in CW at this time. I actually like the MM system we have now, and I hope it will remain an option for people like me who just want to get online after work and shoot some robots, in whatever robot I choose to play.

[Galenit]

Paying MC for shuffling?

Only 480 tons max? Thats 40 tons a players. Maybe this should be more like 50 tons?

Overallweight, no lance weight?
We have a 4 man premade taking 320 tons leaving only 20 tons for every other players then?
Maybe implement a priority system that let you choose in an order based on your last 10 matches or so or give every lance the chance to take 160 tons and only let a lance get bigger if a nother lance goes lighter`?

Giving bonus for fast ready up will bring a lot of griefs.
Just ready has given a lot of insulting,
but if you bind it to a reward some players will go mad on this ...

[AntharPrime]

NRP, on 23 December 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Yeah, I just bought a $500 gold Dire Wolf. To say I would be upset if I couldn't play it whenever and wherever I wanted would be an understatement. I hope this complex system they've proposed is an entirely separate, self-contained game mode. I honestly don't know much about the lore, so I'm really not interested in CW at this time. I actually like the MM system we have now, and I hope it will remain an option for people like me who just want to get online after work and shoot some robots, in whatever robot I choose to play.

HA! Welcome to MWO, where PGI will always find a way to suck the fun out of any feature they implement.

Edited by AntharPrime, 23 December 2013 - 08:08 PM.

[YueFei]

Sandpit, on 23 December 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

uhm ok lol

The NFL didn't need to implement weight limits, did they? Teams can feel free to put 11 players all weighing 350+ pounds on the field if they want to. They just don't do it because it wouldn't be effective most of the time (barring the occasional inches-to-go situation). And the reason it isn't effective is because the field is 160 feet wide, and they allow this thing called the "forward pass". My god, it's like the sport was intelligently designed or something.

Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily consider this a mech or weapon balance issue. I consider this a map design and objective design issue. If MWO maps were all 1 square kilometer with no available cover, the game would be stupid and one-dimensional. That's an extreme example just to illustrate a point. But there is a problem with a lot of the maps being small, with limited objectives, funneling teams into only 2 or 3 possible locations for an engagement. After all, the NFL would be an idiotic sport, too, if the field was only 30 feet wide.

I want to see larger maps with more objectives. Like an artillery battery that can be attacked/defended. A airfield that can be taken out to deny the other team the use of air strikes. Things like that.

[Airborne Thunder]

Here is my solution: Let players pick the mech they want to play and let the servers decide what lobby the mech joins. It's that easy. The servers should let you have something like 4 assaults/heavies, 4 mediums and 4 lights on any given team. You pick any mech you want to play and click launch. You fill one of those slots based on the mech you chose and you play. PGI is making this way more complicated then it has to be. I would rather play a PUG match with the mech of my choosing then have to be put in some lobby based on some arbitrary faction symbol.

[Dark Horse X]

"Voting for a match has no cost, while voting to shuffle has a nominal escalating CB and then MC fee for each successful vote passed. This fee is collected from all players who opted to vote for a shuffle. If a shuffle wins, two new matches are randomly created and the voting process starts over again."

This has an escalating CB and then MC fee for each successful Shuffle vote that is passed? What exactly is being shuffled? The choice of maps? The game type? MC fees? So, F2P will exclude the player without MC's the ability to participate in every aspect of the game or it's phases? BUT, what is this about if a Shuffle wins, two new matches are randomly created and the voting process starts over again? More matches that are then subject to the voting and escalating CB and MC fees? What happens after all of that if another Shuffle wins, are we now facing 4 matches with voting and further escalating CB and MC fees?

Tell me, just how many ways can you bleed a turnip?

I understand that there will be costs in providing servers for matches. I believe we all understand that. I also understand that the foundation for what is being laid out here is beyond belief. MC's, MC's, MC's is the only thing I seem to hear from PGI lately.

If I have paid for "Premium" time, then I should receive "Premium" play. As it is shaping up, Premium time will only affect CB and XP generation.

So, here's how I see it:

Tier #1 F2P player: Doesn't buy MC, grinds C-Bills & XP and buys from a limited selection of mechs. Plays in PUG's. Can only vote "Ready" in a match as doesn't have the MC's to vote "Shuffle" (whatever that truly means).

Tier #2 Premium Player: Buys MC, grinds C-Bills & XP (including a bonus to each) and buys some/all mechs available that are MC only. Plays in PUG's. Can vote "Ready" for no cost

Tier #3 Turnip: Buys MC, grinds C-Bills & XP (same bonus to each as Premium Player), and buys/some all mechs available that are MC only. Plays in PUG's. Can vote "Ready" for no cost, can vote "Shuffle" and be charged MC's that can escalate per each "Shuffle" voted by other Turnips. If "Shuffle" wins, will create 2 new matchs and this voting will occur again - again possibly escalating their MC expenditures.

So, what exactly is a "Premium Player" getting for his/her money? A bonus to C-Bills & XP only. Matching isn't part of this apparently. Matching is going to cost MC's PER MATCH! How many MC's? At the present rate of 1250 MC's for $6.95 (not counting the better pricings for the higher packages), MC's equal roughly .05 - .06 cents each. I wouldn't be shocked if the MC charge BEFORE it escalates is going to be about 20, or $1.00 in real money.

At $1.00 a match, even AFTER you have paid for Premium time, tell me how many matches are you going to play in a day? A week? A month? This sounds reasonable to you? This is pure robbery.

PGI doesn't truly care for MWO, it's lore/lineage, or it's players/fanbase. Everything is money, money, money to them. They have said that CW was coming and didn't meet that deadline, and now it is clear why. They haven't decided how hard they can put the screws to everyone here.

Gold mechs, Founder's packages, Cockpit Items, Hero/Champion mechs, paint, camo...........the list is everything that generates MC. DX11, not happening...........CW, not happening...........Bug fixes, not happening........the list goes on and on. You know why? There isn't any MC generation that PGI can see from it.

Oh yeah, PGI is writing the books on how many ways you can squeeze a turnip for blood.

[Mogney]

Vlad Dragu, on 25 December 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Gold mechs, Founder's packages, Cockpit Items, Hero/Champion mechs, paint, camo...........the list is everything that generates MC. DX11, not happening...........CW, not happening...........Bug fixes, not happening........the list goes on and on. You know why? There isn't any MC generation that PGI can see from it.

Don't worry, these features will come, and they will find a way to charge for all of them. I am just awaiting the announcement that it will cost 15MC per match to use DX11

[Dark Horse X]

Mogney, on 26 December 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

Don't worry, these features will come, and they will find a way to charge for all of them. I am just awaiting the announcement that it will cost 15MC per match to use DX11

No, no, no, the 15 MC per match will be to use DX9(C), DX11 has got to be worth at least 50,000 MC's and might be considered to be included with a Gold Mech purchase. I heard the Gold Mech modules will give 360 degree 3rd Person view out to 5,000 meters, unlimited Air/Arty Strikes, DHS's that do a true 2 heat dissipation, and no Ghost Heat whatsoever.

[Cavendish]

YueFei, on 25 December 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

The NFL didn't need to implement weight limits, did they? Teams can feel free to put 11 players all weighing 350+ pounds on the field if they want to. They just don't do it because it wouldn't be effective most of the time (barring the occasional inches-to-go situation). And the reason it isn't effective is because the field is 160 feet wide, and they allow this thing called the "forward pass". My god, it's like the sport was intelligently designed or something.

Just want to point out that the reason NFL works like that is the fact that they dont PUG the teams. Its hard to do a tactical division of the players if you randomly assign people on random numbered seat into a team....

[Aim64C]

Cavendish, on 27 December 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Just want to point out that the reason NFL works like that is the fact that they dont PUG the teams. Its hard to do a tactical division of the players if you randomly assign people on random numbered seat into a team....

And yet backyard football is still more fun and enjoyable, as are 'flash-games' that materialize in the park among strangers.

Teams may not always be 'balanced' - but you can usually find a place for any halfway athletic person to be of use to the team and see marked improvement.

Of course... even backyard football doesn't often shuffle teams at the completion of each play. Which is pretty much what MWO does. So it's no wonder.

[Cavendish]

Aim64C, on 27 December 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

And yet backyard football is still more fun and enjoyable, as are 'flash-games' that materialize in the park among strangers.

Teams may not always be 'balanced' - but you can usually find a place for any halfway athletic person to be of use to the team and see marked improvement.

Of course... even backyard football doesn't often shuffle teams at the completion of each play. Which is pretty much what MWO does. So it's no wonder.

Oh I quite agree, weight limit is a poor idea in a game where you have to pay real money for half the rides. If you sell people $500 mechs you better exclude them (and anyone who bought a hero mech) from weight limits (or refund the money).

[fat4eyes]

Hi, relatively new guy here, just wanted to chime in on the tonnage limits.

I agree with several posters here that having a hard tonnage limit will lead to a scramble for tonnage and would cause a lot of bad feeling even before the game starts. Not being able to use the mech you wanted is pretty bad and accusations of tonnage hogging would soon follow. New players could be particularly left out since they have a limited stable of mechs to choose from. One could argue they could use the trial mechs, but not all newbies would be good enough pilots to enjoy the light and medium ones. I know I wasn't.

And then theres the issue of high ping players (of which I am one). Do we get to choose our mechs last? That would mean never being able to pilot a heavy or assault ever again as I almost always show up last or second to last during matchmaking.

To somewhat alleviate these problems, instead of giving a tonnage limit for the whole team to fight over, why not give each player a 'tonnage allowance', say (60) tons. If they use a mech that is below their allowance, they can choose to donate the extra tonnage to a pool that either their lance or the whole team can use (having pools at both the lance and team levels would be useful for organizing premades I would think). Also make it clear who the players who donated tonnage are so they get some in-game recognition from their teammates. This way people who play the heavier mechs would feel gratitude to those who ride lighter mechs, instead of the people forced to ride lighter mechs feeling that the heavies 'stole' their tonnage. You could also put cbill bonuses for people who donate tonnage as an incentive (which would also help with the current problem of light pilots not getting enough money). Time limits would still apply of course, so people wanting heavier chassis cant hold up the game waiting (or begging) for other people to donate tonnage to the pools. Players who come in last could also be assured of at least getting a chance to pilot a non-light mech. There is still a possible starvation situation here, when a player has no mechs that will fit the allowance; to counter this maybe make sure that he can always use trial mechs so he can still play.


As for the MC (which I think would be needed for the devs to justify the cost of the feature to management), allow a player to spend MC to increase his own tonnage allowance, but not by a lot (say only 10 tons). At those levels it shouldn't be pay to win yet (i.e. if the entire team paid MC it would just be 120 tons which is just an Atlas plus change, still counterable by good tactics). Not quite sure if the tons bought by MC should be donatable, but I'm leaning to them not being donatable.


Alternatively, instead of hard tonnage limits you can turn them to soft tonnage limits instead, setting cbill or other incentives and penalties to guide the teams to a certain total tonnage. Similar to the tonnage allowance idea above, give a cbill % bonus or penalty if a player is below or exceeds a certain tonnage. Using the (60) ton example, if a player uses a 30 ton mech, he would get (30%) more cbills, but if he goes for a full 100 ton assault he would get (40%) less. I think the penalties should be calibrated so that if a team goes with all 100 ton mechs and WINS against a team that comes around the recommended total tonnage, both teams would get the same total number of cbills. The same tonnage donation mechanic could be used here so assault players only get penalized if noone in their team want to give them tonnage. This way people can still chose any mech they want, and be affected by rewards/penalties caused by their own choices and not by the choices of others. Makes for less bad feelings at the ready screen. This also has the advantage of not having the starvation problem (you can use any mech, you'll just get less cbills if you go over the limit).

MC use on the soft tonnage limit would also be different: a player can pay MC so he doesnt get cbill penalties. It would function similarly to premium time, but on a per match basis (aside: being able to pay MC to get per match premium time is also a good idea so people who dont play much don't feel they waste their premium time when not playing).

Addendum: To avoid complaints about an assault mech cbill 'nerf' using the soft tonnage limits, it can be phrased so that there are no penalties only bonuses e.g. 100 ton mech pilots gain at a 'normal' cbill rate, but 30 ton pilots earn at a 200% bonus (note that this is almost identical to the 30% bonus/40% penalty above, just phrased differently). A bit of psychological trickery, as people react worse to actual 'losses' than opportunity loss, even if they are identical.

[Jon Gotham]

Hatchet Jack, on 02 December 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

I was thinking the same thing....maybe Brian meant 840, that would average out to 70 tons per Mech..?

Hope not. 70 tons per mech means more heavy and assaults on a team.

[fil5000]

kamiko kross, on 09 January 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

Hope not. 70 tons per mech means more heavy and assaults on a team.

I think Bryan's said (I think it might have been on twitter?) that the intended tonnage is 60 per person, with 480 tons being from when the game was still 8v8.