102 replies to this topic

[Corvus Antaka]

Damia Savon, on 06 December 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

I suggest you stop smoking crack. LRMs are hard to use as it is assuming you actually care about doing damage and do not just like tossing stuff downrange. You have to be at around 500-600m for LRMs to do any reliable damage (ironically that 50% effective range you mentioned).

Now you want to put all that on SRMs too? Oh yea. sure.. Please Mr. Shadowhawk.. just stay there for the couple seconds it takes all my SRMs to lock. Please do not move past 135 or they will be even more likely to hit those rocks or trees. Would you mind staying in a straight line so there is no chance of losing the lock I need to have any hope of hitting you.

Most importantly, please do not shoot me while I do this stupid SRM dance at 140m range.

I agree.

Ideally TAG would get extended to about 1250m so LRMS have more opportunities to be used as longer range weapons against ECM'd teams again and to help deal with jumpsniping.

The 750m range of TAG is horrible, it forces a light to put himself into normal PPC & ac/20 range to TAG a target, and has really hurt the scout / LRM dynamic.

[Damia Savon]

Aaron45, on 04 December 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

those meta/competitive fenbois allways use the most powerful combi ( now its the ppc ac combo or what ever)

They will allways btch on the forum cuz some weapon will allways be good over other and they will never use anything else but the best

And that sums up most of the whines on these forums. If you play for fun, you use a mix of weapons, load outs and mechs because they are fun and cool. If you are obsessed with winning, optimization and only the best, then you use a narrow slice of weapons and mechs because you can min/max them the best.

So I am happy I am in the category where people will run trebs, dragons, awesomes, small lasers, flamers, SRMs, pulse lasers and not the boring competitive category where everyone looks and acts the same because they are utterly obsessed with only the best.

Not to be snide or anything, but have any of you looked at real life militaries and seen the huge variety of weapons they own? You realize that not all of them are the best. You realize that not every weapon system is the absolute best.

Not every mech is gonna be perfect. Not every weapon is going to be perfect. Deal.

[stjobe]

You'll also notice that real life military isn't overly concerned about fair fights; quite the opposite. So please remember this is a game; it's supposed to be fair and fun.

[Kunae]

Every match in Mechwarrior should be potentially "unfair". Unfortunately this is an arena-shooter, with robot skins, rather than a Mechwarrior game, so it's pretty much impossible to do.

[Tombstoner]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 06 December 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

I agree.

Ideally TAG would get extended to about 1250m so LRMS have more opportunities to be used as longer range weapons against ECM'd teams again and to help deal with jumpsniping.

The 750m range of TAG is horrible, it forces a light to put himself into normal PPC & ac/20 range to TAG a target, and has really hurt the scout / LRM dynamic.

I agreee
The use of tag places the user into LOS of the target. as a scout that makes you target #1. yes tag is a counter to ECM but the rage is way to short. I think it should be extended about 100-200 meters beyond normal sensor range. but within the range provided by begal probe and sensor range bonuses, this lets scouts actually scout to provide targeting and positional information. if the range is to great for some then increase the visibility of the laser.

Narc needs to last until destroyed but that may be prohibitive. is should at least last for 2 minutes with moduals that extend its time by 30 seconds for level on and 30 more for level to for a max of 3 minutes. if someone chooses to commit that much tonnage to a systems then it should provide a reasonable set of benefits.

as for SRM's i think all missiles should be using the SSRM hit allocation system. basically randomizes the hit location with tag, narc, artimus systems giving higher chances at CT L,R/T hits.

Im wondering if hit detecting is simply overloaded buy large number of strikes in the same area. hence srm's and lrms swarms suffering misses where lrm 5s chain fired are more effective. so the solution is to spread out the hits and not saturate the hit detection code.

[MustrumRidcully]

Who can reliable hit someone with a TAG at 1000+m?
Or maybe:
Who lets himself be reliably hit by someone with a TAG at 1000+m?

Narc could probably be awesome if they ditched the damage threshold. Latch it on, have it last a minute or so, and Scouts and LRM users might love Narc.


Of cours, spotting might also work better if missiles where much faster. They wouldn't look as neat, but damn it, but if a scout only has to lock on for 0.5 to 1 second and those missiles would hit, then things would get interesting. If LRMs turned to powerful then, just lower their damage.

[Tombstoner]

MustrumRidcully, on 06 December 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

Who can reliable hit someone with a TAG at 1000+m?
Or maybe:
Who lets himself be reliably hit by someone with a TAG at 1000+m?

Narc could probably be awesome if they ditched the damage threshold. Latch it on, have it last a minute or so, and Scouts and LRM users might love Narc.


Of cours, spotting might also work better if missiles where much faster. They wouldn't look as neat, but damn it, but if a scout only has to lock on for 0.5 to 1 second and those missiles would hit, then things would get interesting. If LRMs turned to powerful then, just lower their damage.

You mention some points that serve to balance out/ justify the increased range for tag.
I do think missile speed needs to be increased but the way they hit needs to be reworked. i favor using the SSRM system for groups of 5 and RNG the Hit locations. same for SRM's but per missile. interesting that the SSRM hit allocation system is basically a RNG from TT.

LRM range really needs to be boosted to 2000m since all other weapons where given damage drop off over vastly greater ranges from TT. LRM's need that love as well, but should suffer from a slow rate of speed relative to other weapons. letting long range shots be evaded... unless taged or narced.

Things like this would turn the LRM into much more of a support weapon. One that damages the entire mech and not be so focused on the CT. placement of the mech and your target location become much more important for landing the long shot. with greater engagement ranges supported by units with longer range tag. scouting and skillful group maneuvering becomes much more important. along with the damage spread comes a reduced lethality letting players make positional mistakes that are not fatal within 5 seconds. lessen screen shake by 90%

Then after a while re-balance damage. i favor lowering it or leaving it the same and upping the rate of fire/range for AMS.

[Corvus Antaka]

MustrumRidcully, on 06 December 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

Who can reliable hit someone with a TAG at 1000+m?
Or maybe:
Who lets himself be reliably hit by someone with a TAG at 1000+m?

Narc could probably be awesome if they ditched the damage threshold. Latch it on, have it last a minute or so, and Scouts and LRM users might love Narc.


Of cours, spotting might also work better if missiles where much faster. They wouldn't look as neat, but damn it, but if a scout only has to lock on for 0.5 to 1 second and those missiles would hit, then things would get interesting. If LRMs turned to powerful then, just lower their damage.

I dont have any problems, even without advanced zoom hitting a target at 1250m witht ag wouldnt be so hard. you'd still need LOS anyhow, and it would let scouts get behind enemy and flank and cause more terror than right now where they really cant afford to risk it.

[Monky]

One of the few situations I think a bandaid fix would actually be applicable. This and NARC. Slap some XML file changes on them!

[Jman5]

Damia Savon, on 06 December 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

And that sums up most of the whines on these forums. If you play for fun, you use a mix of weapons, load outs and mechs because they are fun and cool. If you are obsessed with winning, optimization and only the best, then you use a narrow slice of weapons and mechs because you can min/max them the best.

So I am happy I am in the category where people will run trebs, dragons, awesomes, small lasers, flamers, SRMs, pulse lasers and not the boring competitive category where everyone looks and acts the same because they are utterly obsessed with only the best.

Not to be snide or anything, but have any of you looked at real life militaries and seen the huge variety of weapons they own? You realize that not all of them are the best. You realize that not every weapon system is the absolute best.

Not every mech is gonna be perfect. Not every weapon is going to be perfect. Deal.

No offense, but I hate these sort of comments. They're backhanded ways of disagreeing without arguing the points. If you really didn't care what was balanced and what was imbalanced, you wouldn't be here trying to shut down the conversation in the first place. Don't care whether SRMs are balanced? Then you shouldn't care whether they are buffed or not.

If weapon values are meaningless to you then what is the harm in our balance discussion?

By creating better balance we make your decision of choosing something because it's "fun and cool" competitive at the same time. Why is that a bad thing? Weapon balance is not an expensive or time consuming part of the development process. They're largely just database values that anyone could change in 15 minutes.

However what was time consuming was all the man hours that went into creating each weapon system. Art teams, programmers, designers, etc. Why make their hard work go to waste by making the weapon values subpar?

[RetroActive]

Kunae, on 06 December 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

Every match in Mechwarrior should be potentially "unfair". Unfortunately this is an arena-shooter, with robot skins, rather than a Mechwarrior game, so it's pretty much impossible to do.

Hawken is an arena-shooter, with robot skins. This game is definitely a Mechwarrior game.

[Trauglodyte]

Jman5, on 06 December 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

No offense, but I hate these sort of comments. They're backhanded ways of disagreeing without arguing the points. If you really didn't care what was balanced and what was imbalanced, you wouldn't be here trying to shut down the conversation in the first place. Don't care whether SRMs are balanced? Then you shouldn't care whether they are buffed or not.

If weapon values are meaningless to you then what is the harm in our balance discussion?

By creating better balance we make your decision of choosing something because it's "fun and cool" competitive at the same time. Why is that a bad thing? Weapon balance is not an expensive or time consuming part of the development process. They're largely just database values that anyone could change in 15 minutes.

However what was time consuming was all the man hours that went into creating each weapon system. Art teams, programmers, designers, etc. Why make their hard work go to waste by making the weapon values subpar?

What he said.

[SniperCon]

I don't understand all the QQ about tag. I have absolutely no problem using it effectively as a light. The maps are such that there are almost always multiple positions with cover within 750mbehind the enemy. If they notice you spotting, duck out and reposition. The only drawback is if it's worth an additional laser.

[MustrumRidcully]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 06 December 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

I dont have any problems, even without advanced zoom hitting a target at 1250m witht ag wouldnt be so hard. you'd still need LOS anyhow, and it would let scouts get behind enemy and flank and cause more terror than right now where they really cant afford to risk it.

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 06 December 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

I dont have any problems, even without advanced zoom hitting a target at 1250m witht ag wouldnt be so hard. you'd still need LOS anyhow, and it would let scouts get behind enemy and flank and cause more terror than right now where they really cant afford to risk it.

So that leads us to the second question in my post, doesn't it? What kind of target lets itself being tagged at 1000+m? That means exposing yourself to line of sight (with most maps having plenty of cover available), and to basically keep standing still.
And then the target is only tagged. The missiles still have to launch and get there.

Short exposure is normal and cannot really be avoided. But long enough exposure, despite all the warning signs.

A longer range for TAG remains a mostly theoretical benefit.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 06 December 2013 - 01:16 PM.

[Malzel]

I think it's more than theoretical. Having been trying an LRM boat since getting the BLR-1S, I generally hang out behind the front-liners, and because the game is pretty focused on mid-to-long range battles with ACs and PPCs, that can put the front lines between 400-600m on a consistent basis. If I'm 100 or 200m behind my frontline guys, then I can't reach my targets with TAG, even if I can visually see them. I would certainly benefit from TAG getting buffed up to 1000m, and I don't think that would exactly be game-breaking.

If you're right and Vinson is wrong, buffing TAG would change nothing but have no ill effects. If Vinson is right and you're wrong, scouts and LRM boats would enjoy a bit more freedom in their roles without having to come into optimal range of the PPC/AC meta. So what would be the harm in buffing TAG, exactly?

[Lightfoot]

I noticed how badly PPCs/ ERPPCs overheat with MWO's dhs 1.4 and BT's 15 heat. I noticed how badly the Gauss Rifle blows now. I noticed how PGI's map for the Clan Invasion now has the Highway of Nerfs outlined in bold markings.

The relationship of those three things is that Gauss and PPCs are the two Inner Sphere weapons that compare pretty closely with Clan Tech versions.

SRMs are not very good weapons, why would they need a buff? So folks could boat them?

[Entail]

Troutmonkey, on 03 December 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

Wow Bill, I used to think highly of you.
Making SRMs do more damage isn't go to fix them. It's going to make them wildly inconsistant will some alpha's absolutely destroying any mech (Splatcat anyone?), while other Alphas will do nothing at all.

There is a major problem with hit reg, it's not just SRMs that are being affected. It is being looked at, but as a system that's deeply rooted into the core game the fix could be difficult to find and impliment without braking something else. It certainly is frustrating to wait for these fixes, but swearing your **** off isn't going to get you anywhere

EDIT: Apparently T1ts is filtered. Damn these overzelous systems

Wow trout I used to used think highly of you. jk idk who you are.

On topic, SRM's are already wildly inconsistent* due to hit registration. It's just that in the state
that they are in now, they not worth carrying as much as they should be. There's also
no solid, obvious counter to poptarting without a strong srm or lbx punch.
So SRM's should be buffed.

[Accursed Richards]

stjobe, on 06 December 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

You'll also notice that real life military isn't overly concerned about fair fights; quite the opposite. So please remember this is a game; it's supposed to be fair and fun.

Well said. The only thing that dud weapons bring to the game is a sense of geek superiority once you recognise them, and then never take them again.

[Corvus Antaka]

MustrumRidcully, on 06 December 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

So that leads us to the second question in my post, doesn't it? What kind of target lets itself being tagged at 1000+m? That means exposing yourself to line of sight (with most maps having plenty of cover available), and to basically keep standing still.
And then the target is only tagged. The missiles still have to launch and get there.

Short exposure is normal and cannot really be avoided. But long enough exposure, despite all the warning signs.

A longer range for TAG remains a mostly theoretical benefit.

I dont really see the drawback, upping the tag range by 500m for a while might be interesting

[Lightfoot]

What I mean is everything in MWO is being nerfed in a way that is just over-reacting to a few exploits and not fixing the mechs to be tougher. Except ACs really. So you can't really ask for a SRM buff in that sort of 'Dev nerf-everything' game direction. Some like it, some not, makes no difference if the only fix for MWO is one giant nerf. SRMs are doing what they should, just fix the bug.

MWO barely resembles MechWarrior anymore and that's not what I signed on for.