106 replies to this topic

[Jun Watarase]

Ive been trying out a 2x LRM-15 with artemis atlas.

Should be amazing for support fire right? Nope.

Ok first of all lets assume the enemy doesnt have ECM that makes the entire enemy blob immune to LRMs. This is a pretty big assumption, but lets assume.

Lets ALSO assume that the enemy team isnt packed full of AMS, considering that a single AMS will pretty much negate a single LRM mech.

And then we run into the biggest problem : How exactly are you supposed to use LRMs to support when the entire metagame revolves around snipers hiding behind terrain? Lets assume a standard sniper loadout of 2 PPC/Gauss or a AC. He moves out of cover, fires a 30-40 point pinpoint alpha into your chest. You lock on, fire and watch as your LRMs impact useless into the cover he is hiding behind.

Even if you are behind cover, your LRMs are still dealing zero damage because they impact into the rock he is behind, or miss after your team loses LOS. And there is no way for your team to maintain LOS on a sniper (sure if you want to be sucidal you can charge in with your light and die after the whole enemy team focus fires you).

Even when you DO catch someone out of cover....the LRMs do pretty much jack all damage. I unloaded more than 5 volleys with the artemis bonus into [PGI] Jonly, who was out in the open and shooting me in his jagermech. It didnt even manage to breach any sections, and he was already damaged before hand. Then he reversed behind a rock and i couldn't hit him anymore. If i had my 4x AC5 cata, the 20+ seconds it took to fire all those LRMs would have resulted in him getting cored. Hell if i had the standard FOTM sniper loadout, i would have done SOMETHING.

And 95% of the time, you cant fire on something with the artemis bonus, because having LOS to the target means you are getting cored by the sniper FOTM.

My damage per match dropped by more than 50% when going from a ballistic heavy cata to a LRM mech, even when the enemy has no ECM. This is really how bad it is.

And to illustrate my point again, i just finished a match on canyon where i spent the ENTIRE game unable to fire any LRMs because the enemy team was flooded with ECM and we did not have sufficient counter ECM. The decision to make a passive 1.5 ton ECM module render an entire enemy team immune to LRMs was a terrible decision.

The "perfect" LRM scenario where you can safely sit back 1000 meters away and spam LRMs as your team engages the enemy team never happens due to ECM, AMS and nobody being able to keep enemies locked because they are 500 meters hiding behind a rock with PPC/Ballistics.

Edit : Another match on river city, couldnt fire any LRMs due to ECM again. Sigh...

Edited by Jun Watarase, 07 December 2013 - 05:22 AM.

[Jun Watarase]

Ok i'm keeping a log of my LRM experiments.

1. Canyon, unable to fire LRMs due to ECM.

2. River city, unable to fire LRMs due to ECM.

3. Alpine, killed a lone locust caught in the open with zero cover. When the rest of the enemy team arrived, LRMs then proceeded to do nothing due to ECM.

4. Snow colony, fired a few LRMs ineffectively at a stalker before i had to move out of LOS due to sniper FOTM. Unable to fire at any other targets for the rest of the match because rest of team was hiding behind a hill and not keeping targets locked. This match also ended in 12-0 btw thanks to the broken matchmaker.

5. Frozen city, no ECM or snipers. Fired 900+ LRMs, only did 500 or so damage, including the damage by large lasers. Unarmored shadowhawk managed to tank 6 volleys before a teammate killed it with lasers.

6.River city, ECM. Funfact : 30 LRMs only do 2% damage to a Orion.

7. Snow colony, no spotters and snipers prevented direct fire.

8. River city, no spotters and snipers prevented direct fire.

9. Snow colony, LRMs largely ineffective due to terrain blocking shots. Except for that one jagermech that ran right out into the water but only took a single LRM volley before dying to focused fire. Then a premade lance rushed me and i died to focused fire.

10. Terra therma, enemy ECM neutralized. I was stsanding in the center for ages direct firing at two cicadas at <300m, who had no problems whatsoever tanking the LRMs. Just standing there for minutes firing with little to no effect...Best case scenario and the LRMs did jack ****. Same thing happened when i started firing on a Misery that was just standing at 400 meters and not moving...so many LRMs, minor damage.

So in conclusion LRMs are rendered useless by either ECM, terrain or lack of spotters 80% of the time. 20% of the time, i got a perfect scenario in which i could just stand and dump LRMs on someone with no problem, but even then the LRMs did very minor damage. The entire time i was thinking "wow if i was using a non LRM config, these guys would be dead 10 times over....".

Back to using my quad AC5 cataphract which i regularly do 700+ damage with.

[GI Journalist]

Topped off by the fact that an LRM carrier can be an easy target for 'Mechs that close the distance, they seem like a poor choice. I've been pouring upgrades into my CPLT-C1, with little effect. The only kill I have ever registered, was finishing off a BattleMaster, and that was a lucky shot with my medium lasers at point blank range. I don't mind running a support fire 'Mech, but from the extremely limited damage that is registering from the LRMs, it doesn't feel like I'm providing much support.

Is anyone having a different experience? Is there a way to make this work?

[SgtMaster]

well, LRMs could be a good team support mech prior to patch...

now, the 3 lights leave me standing alone vs 8 enemy mechs...

LRM's and LRM support mech are now useless again..!

Edited by SgtMaster, 07 December 2013 - 08:11 AM.

[NuclearPanda]

I run an Awesome, with 4xALRM15's, TAG and 2 MLs. I honestly don't really have problems running it or getting kills. LRM's are still a support weapon but you can't expect to be stationary with them and use them to great effect.

My best matches are when I roll with my Lance, or the murderball in general, and keep behind them a good 100-200m. Obtaining LOS on enemy mechs myself, combined with utilizing my TAG, I can rack up some serious damage and kills while they're closing distance on the enemy and I'm continuing to move forward as well launching the deathrain.

*shrugs*

[Jun Watarase]

NuclearPanda, on 07 December 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

I run an Awesome, with 4xALRM15's, TAG and 2 MLs. I honestly don't really have problems running it or getting kills. LRM's are still a support weapon but you can't expect to be stationary with them and use them to great effect.

My best matches are when I roll with my Lance, or the murderball in general, and keep behind them a good 100-200m. Obtaining LOS on enemy mechs myself, combined with utilizing my TAG, I can rack up some serious damage and kills while they're closing distance on the enemy and I'm continuing to move forward as well launching the deathrain.

*shrugs*

[insert weapon here] works well when stacking teams with a premade.

*slow clap*

Try pugging with LRMs and being unable to fire any LRMs due to ECM and let me know how that works. Especially when a premade of AC40 jagermechs starts running straight for you.

[Elder Thorn]

Jun Watarase, on 07 December 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

Ive been trying out a 2x LRM-15 with artemis atlas.

Stoped reading there.
Hint: Don't use an Atlas for LRMs. If you want to play an Assault LRM Boat, go with AWS-8R, bring your own TAG and keep moving.

[DaddyP1G]

Tell that to my 5M that averages 500+ and 3 kills a game.

[arghmace]

Seems like you don't use TAG since ECM is such a big problem for you. Big mistake, there.

[lshtaria]

Lurms are fine as they are.

[Thorqemada]

Missile Hystery:

Oh my God so many Missiles - Sky is darkened, Sun is black.
Skillless noobs shot them at thousands - balance total out of whack.
Lurmgeddon everywhere - skillful Players on the lose.
Point & Click is real fighting - we war Missile-Noobs also verbose.

We Superiors to the Missles - we deserve to kill and win.
Those who say anything different - you are not of our kin.
Lurmageddon, Lumageddon - thats why we make up so much fuss.
You dont deserve it any better - Noobs have no right to hinder us!



PS: The sad state of LRMs is that you need to exploit them badly to get any use out of them which only leads to further nerfing...while making small and healthy LRM-Setups total invalid.
You can allways make use of 1 ML or 1 AC but 1x LRM5 or 1x LRM10 and even 1x LRM15 is nothing but fluff and a game of luck if you get any use out of it.

Edited by Thorqemada, 07 December 2013 - 12:15 PM.

[Stomp]

The damage you do while being able to theoretically take ZERO damage yourself is acceptable to me. You're spending 16 tons on 2 Arty 15s, so you can do damage from behind cover. I'm not saying that it's smart to commit so much tonnage towards it, but I think if you come out with damage then you'll be alright. PERSONALLY, I don't buy Artemis, 1st because spending two tons on what I see is very little change in grouping is stupid, and 2nd because committing so much tonnage towards weapons with such a large minimum range is dangerous. I would suggest buying a Catapult C1. It has 4 medium lasers, which do the damage of an AC/20 to a single component if you can aim, at a fraction of the weight. An XL 300 allows you 5 tons for your 2 LRM15, plus BAP, and advanced Target decay. I've broken 600 damage in this mech, and it's a good fire support mech to throw missiles over your teammates heads' to assist in a push and strip them of their armor.

If that doesn't make you pissed that the stock build C1 is good to me, then I've got something else you might wanna try. KTO-18, 5 LRM 5, 1 ML and 1 ER LL. 5 tons of ammo, BAP, XL 315, and Endosteel. It runs 102 with speedtweak, the ER large laser pairs nicely, and if they have AMS you just switch to group fire. This mech I've broken 900 damage in.

Some suggestions for frustrated players trying to lurm effectively-
1. Know your ranges- 1000m is the max range for LRMs, but that doesn't mean you should be throwing lurms at the Locust 900m away. Missiles are slow, so try choosing a target that's closer to you and your team. This has the added benefit of working on mechs your team might also be trying to kill.

2. Choose your targets- See that Victor 9B poptarting with the 2 PPC/AC/20? He is murdering your mechs, so flank him at a range of 600m and starting raining on his parade. Be fast and mobile, on the onskirts of your team, ready to run back should you need the help, but for god's sake don't stop shooting missiles at him. He is hating life, trust me. I've soloed assault mechs with LRM5s, so I can tell you LRMs hurt a good deal more than you might think. Patience is a virtue.

3. Positioning- Sometimes you just get caught at a bad time; being jumped by lights is bad news, especially early on before you've fired a shot. Buy a CPT-A1, run 4 streak 2s and 2 LRM15s, you'll be a light-hunter/fire-support Cat, the build is good and the lights hate you.

4. Teamwork- MWO is a team game. If you expect to break 4000dmg in a pug match with no support, go away right now. What you should be working on is finding guys to play with; people that are willing to work together to ensure your success. That means that that light pilot that just sat on you last game might be willing to drop with you, mount BAP, and help you spot so that you can proceed to wreck the enemy team. Be gracious in defeat and cordial in your victories. Download TS3, find a server, and help each other to shoot as many mechs as you could possibly want.

That's all.

[Candun]

its a bit funny that you get a post like this one then 5 min later you get a post that says OMG LRM ARE WAY OP.WHAT DID THEY DO LAST PATCH!!!! lrms take some skill to use despite the claims by some that they are sit back and do nothing weapon. if you want to use lrms pick a mech that has enough missle tube to fire the lrms you want to use in 1 volley and not fire them off in multiple salvos

[Jun Watarase]

Elder Thorn, on 07 December 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Stoped reading there.
Hint: Don't use an Atlas for LRMs. If you want to play an Assault LRM Boat, go with AWS-8R, bring your own TAG and keep moving.

You will still die to snipers. While your LRMs hit a rock uselessly. Or you wont be able to fire LRMs at all due to ECM And a tag wont help the sniper/rock problem. Doesnt matter which mech you bring, you run into the same problems.

Kaden Kildares, on 07 December 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

Tell that to my 5M that averages 500+ and 3 kills a game.

OK now try that when pugging and let me know how it goes.

Quote

The damage you do while being able to theoretically take ZERO damage yourself is acceptable to me.

Tp

Top lel, 100 LRMs do less damage than the standard sniper FOTM setup that doesn't require the stars to align to work. Why do you think games are dominated by victors/highlanders in sniper setups?

Kyocera, on 07 December 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

Lurms are fine as they are.

This from the guy who ran full speed solo into the enemy team and then got focused fired down....the funny thing is the LRMs hitting you did the LEAST damage of all weapons....

arghmace, on 07 December 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

Seems like you don't use TAG since ECM is such a big problem for you. Big mistake, there.

OK, try to tag an enemy mech and watch him reverse behind a building after you fire your LRMs. Meanwhile you took a 40 damage alpha to the CT.

TAG will help how exactly?

[Stomp]

Jun Watarase, on 07 December 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

You will still die to snipers. While your LRMs hit a rock uselessly. Or you wont be able to fire LRMs at all due to ECM And a tag wont help the sniper/rock problem. Doesnt matter which mech you bring, you run into the same problems.



OK now try that when pugging and let me know how it goes.

Tp

Top lel, 100 LRMs do less damage than the standard sniper FOTM setup that doesn't require the stars to align to work. Why do you think games are dominated by victors/highlanders in sniper setups?



This from the guy who ran full speed solo into the enemy team and then got focused fired down....the funny thing is the LRMs hitting you did the LEAST damage of all weapons....



OK, try to tag an enemy mech and watch him reverse behind a building after you fire your LRMs. Meanwhile you took a 40 damage alpha to the CT.

TAG will help how exactly?

I understand you're frustrated, but maybe you should consider a different platform for your LRMs? Atlas is slow, so slow that it's hard to use LRMs effectively in my opinion. It's about being able to position yourself in an advantageous situation; YES, I'm saying you have to practice with them. They're not an easy weapon and you seem to be mad that they don't "LOL KILL" anything you lock, and that ECM aggravates your ability to fight with them. YES. ECM is the hardest counter to missiles ever. But then why don't you just drop in something else? Last night I lost like 25 straight games in streakboats, light mechs, AC/20 mediums, Assaults, until finally coming back to my LRMtaro. Then come back to your Atlas. Sometimes it's about what's effective in a game. And please, I know you're mad but if you say "FOTM is effective", I'm out.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

LRMs have some issues:

• the bigger the salvo, the bigger the spread, so you need lots of ammo if trying them as a primary weapon
  
• the salvos seem to be CT seeking, so smaller salvos like LRM-5s, can quickly core many targets if hits register.
  
• missiles seem to be tracked individually so there can often be hit reg issues (and I wonder if the their slow speed is a part of that)
  
• they are too slow, moving at 120 m/s currently
  
• being slow they rely on lock-ons to hit
  
• Relying on lock-ons, they need extra equipment (TAG, Artemis and Target Decay for sure, also can benefit from using BAP, Sensor Range and UAV for example).

So what I'd really like to explore to improve LRMs are:

• using the SSRM "bone" system (here is the Command Chair post) for LRMs could work so that less ammo is wasted from spread and remove their CT seeking nature.
  
• then reducing the number of missiles tracked could help (I'd like to explore this idea, mentioned here, of having LRMs in groups of five missiles, and then AMS reducing the damage directly, not missile hit points, as described in this Command Chair post) for example instead of firing 2xLRM 20 and have the server track 40 missiles, instead track 8 groups of five missiles.
  
• a faster missile speed, and not that much, even 250 m/s might work, even if I would prefer something more like 425 m/s or even 700 m/s to be able to hit moving targets beyond 450 M with greater consistency.
  
• and lastly explore a change to when we can lock-on if LRMs are adjusted to go as fast or faster than 500 m/s, as partly a balancing measure and a means to be less reliant on the lock-on within a certain range with LRMs moving faster.
  
• One idea is to extend the range when lock-on occurs, so 0 to 180 M it stays the same as now, they bounce. 180 to 540 M only dumb-fire (Artemis reducing that to 180 to 450 M), 540 M to 1,000 M normal lock-on (Artemis reducing that to 450 M to 1000 M). And if that is too restrictive maybe starting at 450 M and having Artemis reduce the range to 360 M could work.

I'd just like an opportunity to test something out, because missile weapons need some attention.

Edited by Praetor Shepard, 07 December 2013 - 01:00 PM.

[Garagano]

lrms are fine!
-use BAP!
-use TAG!
-use a proper mech and its hardpoints
-in a pug go scout yourself!
-never rely on your team members in a pug match!
-use your lrms to push the enemy into cover
-focus on the one mech that is so stupid to stay in the open field
- ...

lrms are very good right now. i use them very often and successful. and i fear them if they come from a skilled player on-route to my mech.

on second tought, lrms are bad. dont use them! *thinkingofanotherlrmagedon*

Edited by Garagano, 07 December 2013 - 01:08 PM.

[JimboFBX]

yes LRM boats aren't as effective as they should be

The TAG laser shouldn't be be visible and it needs a longer range

LRMs are good for chasing mechs into cover and out of combat, but you don't need a lrm boat to do that

LRM 60 is only marginally better than 3x LRM5

Also AMS is everywhere, yet I almost never put it on a mech because it gives away your position and it's easy to take cover or turn

[Wolfways]

1st: http://mwomercs.com/...lrms-revisited/

2nd: If PGI are happy with how LRM's are now i'd at least like an option to turn off the annoying "Incoming missiles" warning as i generally ignore it anyway.

[Kin3ticX]

If you have a mech with PPC + PPC + AC10 (not the best combo i know, but its a 30 alpha nonetheless)

and you want LRMs to be competitive......

Then LRMs have to be at the proper strength to convince me to remove a PPC and replace it with an LRM 10. That means LRMs have to do extra damage/speed/accuracy to offset some of their situational risks and counters like no locks, ECM, AMS, buildings, overhangs, minimum range, ammo.