106 replies to this topic

[Jun Watarase]

I still see no explanation of how you can TAG when snipers are coring your CT across the map while hiding behind rocks to block your LRMs. Funny, 3 pages and still not a single "omg LRMs are OP" person can explain this.

I just finished a match against a sync dropping premade full of LRM boats. Even their sniper highlanders had LRMs instead of the typical ballistic.

All i had to do was hide behind a building, peek out and shoot for a bit. Then reverse when the INCOMING MISSLE warning showed up.

I didnt get hit by a single LRM the whole game despite getting focused fired by tons of LRMs. Why? All i had to do was reverse behind a building. It really was that simple. All the TAGs they had did jack ****.

The enemy team couldnt do anything until half my team was dead (because it was premades vs randoms and the randoms were low ELO, so they had no clue how to deal with LRMs) and they rushed me with multiple assaults.

Im sure the LRM boats in that match thought they were really OP when they looked at the end of match results, too bad it was :

-Premades vs randoms

-Randoms that didnt even know how to hide behind buildings to block LRMs

-A team full of "OP LRMs" that couldnt even kill a single shadowhawk that was just reversing behind a building

deforce, on 10 December 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

ummmmm.... half the time i take a lerm boat, ppl are QQing at the end of the match. omgggg lermz OP

Try doing that without your premade in high ELO matches and come back, thanks. To date the only time i have seen LRM boats be successful is against low ELO randoms that have no ECM and have no clue how to reverse behind terrain to block LRMs. In all other cases you get a LRM boat that does pretty much nothing. It's especially funny when they try to TAG and you see them get hit by multiple PPC blasts while they are standing out in the open like an *****.

Abivard, on 10 December 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

Try equipping BAP or TAG like an LRM boat should have, LRM's are not broken, the Pilots skill is what is at fault.

>he thinks BAP neutralizes ECM at beyond 150 meters
>he thinks you can stand out in the open and TAG when more than half the match are PPC/Ballistic sniper boats focus firing you
>he thinks BAP/TAG allows LRMs to fly through terrain to hit a sniper boat which just reversed behind it after doing a 40 pt alpha strike into your CT

And this is how you tell when someone on the forums is playing only in low ELO matches....

Edited by Jun Watarase, 11 December 2013 - 11:44 PM.

[Jun Watarase]

Pataine, on 11 December 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

I just want LRM's to spread all over just like streaks. Being cored out as all damage goes CT is BS. Yes I know its not table top but it would make sense for them to spread all over. Yes Artemis and TAG can help MORE hit not More hit a specific location.

LRMs already spread all over like streaks. Unless someone is boating LRM-5s with artemis/tag. Which would indicate a massivedesign flaw where smaller sized LRM launchers are actually BETTER...

Edited by Jun Watarase, 11 December 2013 - 11:39 PM.

[Daemir]

And after you've backed behind your same little hidey hole 2 times a row, I'm dropping an airstrike on the other side of your cover so you can't see the smoke and get bombarded by that. If I suppress 2 targets behind same cover, I'll arty it. If you still stay behind that same cover, my lance mate will do the same thing. By this point, after being hit by 2-3 strikes you are eiher dead or so low on armor in body parts that matter that you are effectively neutered.

There is also great value in suppressing targets behind cover, that means the rest of my team can push without resistance and take favorable positions. Then once your team realizes what just happened, they either stay in cover (and get air/artied) or try to head for the next cover, while they get shot in the back by our front lines and again the missiles are raining in.

Also, when there's even 2 of you with LRMs, you can negate much of cover by positioning. Don't stand right next to each other bombarding the same cover, one of you take 400-500 meters to one side and see what you can do from there. Often the cover people use isn't also proper cover from missiles launched from afar as the angle they come down is pretty steep, it just breaks your locks. Drop a UAV in those situations (or have a light mate drop it) and watch them spread like roaches as they start eating lurms behind the cover they thought was good.

Knowing the map layout is important. You have to know the map enough to realize what kind of cover the enemy has available, what obsticles are in the missile trajectory, have an idea what kind of trajectory your missiles will take and is it worth shooting missiles at them while keeping an eye on your team movements. Sometimes it is worth shooting missiles into obvious cover just to keep enemies pinned in.

But yea, overall, I can't give you a magic way to make it work for you, I can say it works for me when I really want to play lrms, which isn't everytime I play by far. And by work, I mean like in the screenshot before, damage in the thousand mark, several kills on the board. Obviously it requires teamwork, so count the 2 LRM boat dmg scores and the spider in the lance and divide by 3 and look if it still looks decent.

[MountainCopper]

-ECM is too good a counter for LRMs, I agree with that as well.
-Also, you can't do anything if the enemy shoots at you for an alpha strike and then disappears into cover again. That is the current imbalance and annoyance with the game.
-You also can't walk out out of cover alone to get LOS to fire your missiles, since you will get shot at by half the enemy team. So you are completely dependent on your team even for support to get LOS. You can forget about that in pugs...
-You can't reposition yourself alone in many cases and map positioning. Mostly because, again, you will be the only Mech out of cover to be shot at by half their team.
-"Exchange a PPC for a LRM10?" Not if want to do damage with that weapon. Also a conclusion, I found out about some time ago.

Edited by GoldenFleece, 12 December 2013 - 04:15 AM.

[Ziogualty]

LRM are not an ideal setup for pug (not uncommon to read stuff like "please hit R / LRM boat here" in the team chat).
LRM are not a friendly weapon for starters.
ECM is still a bit overpowered.
Anyway...
I still die from heavy rain.
Sometimes it has devastating effects.
And everytime it happens, i assume i did something wrong or my enemy was very smart.

More than a simply support weapon, LRM could be called a "team support weapon".
Try LRM boat in a TeamSpeak lance and things should be much better.

[Wrathful-Khan]

+1 Follow behind the brawler line and get LOS yourself. I've found LRMs to be most effective vs targets 300-500m away in sight.

Think of yourself as a mobile second row mech (like ac2 jager).

[NuclearPanda]

Jun Watarase, on 11 December 2013 - 11:31 PM, said:

I still see no explanation of how you can TAG when snipers are coring your CT across the map while hiding behind rocks to block your LRMs. Funny, 3 pages and still not a single "omg LRMs are OP" person can explain this.

I already answered this. There is no way a sniper can core your CT while it is "hiding behind rocks". It can do one or the other.

Use your teamchat/lancechat to call out where the sniper is, have your teammates flank, and let loose your LRMs while he's busy with them or get yourself into better position.

LRMs aren't "worthless", and all I see you complaining about it how you can't shoot through terrain with them therefore making them "worthless".



Is an enemy hiding in cover LIKE THEY SHOULD BE? Good. That's game design.

Are you standing still, complaining about getting shot and not being able to shoot back? Good. That's because you're a bad and deserve to get shot.

Use LRMs appropriately folks.

[Wrathful-Khan]

If you follow in the second row you shouldn't be getting sniped because they will be more worried about the guys in front of you. Move to a position of overwatch where you can see your front liners, and as they draw mechs out of cover you hit them. The faster you can help them take down enemies, the sooner your team will have a numerical advantage.

Firing lrms all the way across the map at guys behind cover is just a waste of ammo.

[NuclearPanda]

Indiandream, on 12 December 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

If you follow in the second row you shouldn't be getting sniped because they will be more worried about the guys in front of you. Move to a position of overwatch where you can see your front liners, and as they draw mechs out of cover you hit them. The faster you can help them take down enemies, the sooner your team will have a numerical advantage.

Firing lrms all the way across the map at guys behind cover is just a waste of ammo.

Exactly, I don't see why this is so hard to understand for some people. If all you're rocking is LRMs, and you try to go 1v1 against pretty much any other mech with any other weapon you're going to lose most of the time. This is fact, and this is good design.

LRMs are a support weapon and should be used as such, assisting your team.

[Jun Watarase]

Attank, on 12 December 2013 - 04:34 AM, said:

LRM are not an ideal setup for pug (not uncommon to read stuff like "please hit R / LRM boat here" in the team chat).
LRM are not a friendly weapon for starters.
ECM is still a bit overpowered.
Anyway...
I still die from heavy rain.
Sometimes it has devastating effects.
And everytime it happens, i assume i did something wrong or my enemy was very smart.

More than a simply support weapon, LRM could be called a "team support weapon".
Try LRM boat in a TeamSpeak lance and things should be much better.

You can do well with anything in a teamspeak lance. Even small pulse lasers. This proves nothing.

Indiandream, on 12 December 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

+1 Follow behind the brawler line and get LOS yourself. I've found LRMs to be most effective vs targets 300-500m away in sight.

Think of yourself as a mobile second row mech (like ac2 jager).

Still not addressing any of the problems i mentioned.

[Jun Watarase]

Indiandream, on 12 December 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

If you follow in the second row you shouldn't be getting sniped because they will be more worried about the guys in front of you. Move to a position of overwatch where you can see your front liners, and as they draw mechs out of cover you hit them. The faster you can help them take down enemies, the sooner your team will have a numerical advantage.

Firing lrms all the way across the map at guys behind cover is just a waste of ammo.

The LRM volleys coming out of your launchers are a huge "SNIPE ME NOW" sign. Plus you are assuming your team has brawlers willing to charge forward and act as your meat shield (which pretty much never happens in the sniper metagame). In high ELO matches, your entire team, barring lights, are going to be hiding behind terrain and pop tarting. Nobody is going to "draw enemies out of cover" when they themselves are hiding behind cover and sniping.

If you want to help take down enemies, use PPC/Ballistics, they do 30-40 pinpoint damage to the enemy CT. Even a cicada can tank 150+ artemis LRMs with no problem. This is terribly wrong.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 12 December 2013 - 04:37 PM.

[DeathlyEyes]

LRM's should never ever be in the same league for focused damage when fighting in the open. They require no skill to aim, instead they require skill to acquire targets. You do less focused damage so that means someone else needs to spot to you. The skill in using them relates to communication skills with others getting locks. If LRMs become on an equal level with direct fire weapons no one would use direct fire weapons because there would be no point. LRMs are a support weapon not a bread and butter weapon like a laser or autocannon.

[Wrathful-Khan]

The problem in all honesty does not lie with LRMs but with the OP's ability to utilise them. Sorry mate, if they don't work for you use something else.

Edited by Indiandream, 12 December 2013 - 07:33 PM.

[Jun Watarase]

Indiandream, on 12 December 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

The problem in all honesty does not lie with LRMs but with the OP's ability to utilise them. Sorry mate, if they don't work for you use something else.

You cant provide any counter arguments to the points i raised. Sorry, but you fail. Thats pretty much a clear indicator that i'm completely right....because you know you can't prove me wrong, you resort to vauge "you suck!" arguments.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 12 December 2013 - 08:39 PM.

[Jun Watarase]

h4t3r4d3, on 12 December 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

LRM's should never ever be in the same league for focused damage when fighting in the open. They require no skill to aim, instead they require skill to acquire targets. You do less focused damage so that means someone else needs to spot to you. The skill in using them relates to communication skills with others getting locks. If LRMs become on an equal level with direct fire weapons no one would use direct fire weapons because there would be no point. LRMs are a support weapon not a bread and butter weapon like a laser or autocannon.

It doesnt take any skill whatsoever to mouse over an enemy mech and press mouse 1 followed by reversing behind a rock. What are you talking about? Next you are going to tell me it takes skill for a premade to sync drop and bash low ELO randoms in trial mechs....

Any weapon that requires two or more to even WORK is underpowered. For the simple reason that you can just not bother and bring two snipers instead. Actually, one sniper will do more damage than two LRM boats. While the sniper is doing 30-40 pinpoint alphas, the LRM boats are watching their LRMs hit a rock uselessly.

It is not a coincidence that the entire meta revolves around snipers poptarting with PPC/Ballistics doing pinpoint damage to the CT. If it wasn't good, most players would not be using this setup in the first place. If LRMs were good, most players would be using them in high ELO matches. Instead they are using sniper setups with JJs and laughing at you as your LRMs hit the rock they are using for cover. This is not a coincidence.

For the last ******* time, spotting requires you to maintain LOS to the target for a long time. This is impossible in the current meta of sniper boats unless your enemy sucks. Even if the enemy completley ignores the spotter, that does not prevent him from reversing behind a rock to block your LRMs.

And i have already proven that even in the perfect scenario where you can sit there, completely unmolested, and dump artemis LRMs on an enemy mech....your LRMs do **** poor damage. I proved this in the first two posts, which most people simply did not bother to read or respond to (other than to make vauge claims that LRMs are OP based on anectdotal experiences of bashing newbies who don't know how to reverse behind a rock). Cicadas should not be able to tank 150+ artemis LRMs. A 40 ton mech should not be able to tank 30+ seconds worth of firepower that weigh a ridiculous amount of tonnage and cost millions of c-bills.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 12 December 2013 - 08:47 PM.

[Wrathful-Khan]

Honestly dude, there is 4 pages of counter-argument here. Every other poster here has either slightly disagreed, or strongly disagreed with you. All of your points have already been covered, you just don't want to listen or accept facts. You are just a troll LTP.

Edited by Indiandream, 13 December 2013 - 03:18 AM.

[Flitzomat]

As an Atlas you are a very slow LRM carrier and dependent on some comrades that back you up. Try it with a Catapult or smth more agile.

If you play your LRM boat in a way that snipers constantly hit you, then you are playing it wrong. Sorry for being rude, but it's as simple as that.
If you fire at fast mechs like cicadas and wonder why you don´t do damage, well they are too fast.

What´s your LRM accuracy form the stats?

If you play 12man drops your arguments are valid. But I think you wouldn´t play LRMs in this case, would you?

Edited by Flitzomat, 13 December 2013 - 04:25 AM.

[Wrathful-Khan]

You want LRMs to be a counter to snipers, but that isn't what they are for. They are a counter to guys moving in the open. The counter to snipers is maneuver and flanking.

[Kilo 40]

Jun Watarase, on 11 December 2013 - 11:31 PM, said:

try doing that without your premade in high ELO matches and come back, thanks. To date the only time i have seen LRM boats be successful is against low ELO randoms that have no ECM and have no clue how to reverse behind terrain to block LRMs.

this is what you call confirmation bias.

lrm boat fails in the first few minutes? must be a high ELO group.

lrm boat kicks butt? must be a bunch of n00bs.

lrms are fine. you just need to learn how to use them. move, get a better position. contrary to popular opinion they are not a "stay at the base and spam away" weapon.

[NuclearPanda]

Indiandream, on 13 December 2013 - 03:08 AM, said:

Honestly dude, there is 4 pages of counter-argument here. Every other poster here has either slightly disagreed, or strongly disagreed with you. All of your points have already been covered, you just don't want to listen or accept facts. You are just a troll LTP.

This, a hundred thousand times this. Notice how I've specifically torn apart his points and he pretty much stopped responding to me altogether haha.

Jun Watarase, on 12 December 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

You can do well with anything in a teamspeak lance. Even small pulse lasers. This proves nothing.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh god I seriously just spit out my coffee while laughing!

Next you're going to tell me that the Command Console is seriously OP, aren't you?

I'd like to ask the Devs to lock the thread down anyways. This is going nowhere at the moment and honestly you're just antagonizing people with troll behavior.

Jun Watarase, on 12 December 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

Even a cicada can tank 150+ artemis LRMs with no problem. This is terribly wrong.

Tank. You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it does in this instance. I've already explained this to you. Cicadas, and other fast moving lights, simply just aren't getting hit by the missles.

They are out maneuvering them.

It's pretty simple. Use the weapons within their limitations.

This is seriously like if you complained that you're firing PPCs at an Atlas point-blank, doing no damage (as they are designed to NOT do damage under 90m), and coming on here to complain about them being "worthless".

Edited by NuclearPanda, 13 December 2013 - 06:04 AM.