362 replies to this topic

[Artgathan]

One thing I'd like to point out (because I fear this might be getting lost in the discussion) is that I don't think Assaults should never be able to track fast targets - I certainly think they should be able to at longer ranges. I just think that there should be a short range band (somewhere between 270 - 100 m) where Heavy / Assault mechs are disadvantaged when fighting a fast moving target.

IE: If that 6 ML Jenner wants to engage an Atlas at 400 metres, the Jenner should get blown away. However if the Jenner manages to get closer - say, to 200m (purely for example!) - then it should have a fighting chance against the Atlas.

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

I don't turn my Atlas much as it is a losing proposition, I let you run under my Cross hairs for better results. And ending a Light in an instant has been going on for 30 years. It may not be easy but swatting a fly with your bare hand is a good example. Its fast and hard to hit, but once I do It is over. Light Mechs are supposed to be hard to hit (which they are for me), but when you hit them with heavy weapons they are made of glass. name me any fast attack craft that can take heavy fire and survive.

Plain and simple if you wanna be fast, accept the consequences of that decision. Just like i do when in my Kintaro. When I die unexpectedly I normally type,"Gotta remember, this is not an Atlas!!!"

Joe, come on. You know I'm a light pilot, and that I readily accept that it is my fate to die a grisly death if I manage to spend too much time in front of an assault.

But that's what we're trying to get through your thick head, that it is currently impossible to avoid against an assault pilot that's not distracted. The turning speeds and torso twist speeds means I cannot outmaneuver you. I cannot get out of your field of fire unless you do something stupid.

In short, it's not enough if I'm a better pilot than you in my light, you have to do something stupid to not be able to keep me in your sights, because the game mechanics mean you have the means to track me no matter what I do.

Edited by stjobe, 10 December 2013 - 08:05 AM.

[Phromethius]

my post supporting both of you was lost on the last page :[

I see the common ground guys its like you are saying the same thing but from each point of view! ALMOST THERE JOSEPH AND JOBE!

[Joseph Mallan]

Phromethius, on 10 December 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

This is what they are saying. I lurk mostly but had to log in to help this discussion along. I see what you are saying about reflex. And that is true when it is implemented like the Cross hair trap you set for yourself. They cross your line of fire and you have the reflexes to pull the trigger the light SHOULD in fact go down. However as an Assault, even factoring in pilot reflexes, the mech should not be able to catch up to and lead the reticule on a light mech target moving laterally across the field of view. Essentially an Assault mech should NOT be able to line up a shot on a fast moving target, but if they are a good pilot can get off the shots when the light makes the mistake of crossing the current line of fire or circling around the front of the mech. T

That is the argument presented. Tracking the light mech is too fast. Negating the mobility of the light mech. Track all you want if a light pilot runs head long in your current firing solution, but not if it is darting laterally to get around to your back side.

To further show I am not on anyone's "SIDE" IF an Assault pilot had the intuition to predict the tactic of said light and PRE-led his target reticule to anticipate a flanking maneuver, then again pilot skill wins the day and the light should suffer the wrath of an alpha. But again this would only work because the light itself would be crossing the reticule not the Assault placing the reticule on the mech moving 4 times as fast.

And the argument presented is wrong. I am a "Big Guy" (6'2" 270) I can and do surprise the {Scrap} out of lil guys with my reflex speed. If these guys tried to out run me they could. If they get into arms reach, I can snatch 'em off their feet and teach em a lesson. We need to take responsibility for our own failing, If you are dying in a Light and you are a good light pilot, you have met a better pilot or you made a mistake. I can kill maybe 2 outta 10 Lights I encounter as is. Quit trying to screw that up!

[Almond Brown]

Sandpit, on 09 December 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

STK-5M

Ok, show me where I've maxed out an engine, have tons to spare, or even crit slots open.
If you alpha you get hot. Fast. WAY fast.
Sure it has 45 damage alpha but it's also not pinpoint

Now then, I simply cannot wade into battle against faster heavies, just about any medium, or anyone that has a good idea on how to pilot a light because I CAN'T twist, turn, and track those mechs. I have it mastered so my skills are all doubled. I'm telling you flat out with all honesty that what you're saying just isn't factual. I'm not being a dbag I'm just pointing out that I am living proof in contradiction to your statements.

As noted, the 5 LL Stalker, other than being a 1 Alpha wonder, and then wait forever (without a Flush) build, is just a waste of Energy slots. At 3.5s recycle, a 3 LL build can fire ALL three in a continuous stream of 9pt. (optimal) damage for a very long time (+/-45s) and in the end have a better a much better over-all DPS versus that 1 Alpha wonder.

P.S. You can go with 4 LL, but again, the recycle times makes 3 the optimal # for steady firing.

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 10 December 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

Joe, come on. You know I'm a light pilot, and that I readily accept that it is my fate to die a grisly death if I manage to spend too much time in front of an assault.

But that's what we're trying to get through your thick head, that it is currently impossible to avoid against an assault pilot that's not distracted. The turning speeds and torso twist speeds means I cannot outmaneuver you. I cannot get out of your field of fire unless you do something stupid.

In short, it's not enough if I'm a better pilot than you in my light, you have to do something stupid to not be able to keep me in your sights, because the game mechanics mean you have the means to track me no matter what I do.

I disagree though St. I am an Assault pilot, I rarely kill lights as is, I have old aging reflexes that sometimes show signs of old glory, the problem isn't anything that isn't player reflex ability. I kill lights more by anticipating your movement than tracking you, but really stop trying to make it harder.

You don't read me saying "I die to easy, Assaults need more armor." I even tell folks saying that to sit down they are wrong. You are a bug I am a windshield! Someday's its not your turn.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 10 December 2013 - 08:50 AM.

[Phromethius]

trust me Joseph I simply LOL when I die getting cored by an assault. in fact I usually congrat them on the nice shot. IF i was darting from cover or ran in front. But when I die because I take one to the side or to the leg and I am full speed 157kmph within 150 meters and already on your "3" trying to get to your "6" and you can simply turn and fire a second alpha to leg me or CT core me? that is when I start feeling like there is no amount of pilot skill that can negate that. And I feel as St Jobe and Artgathan do, that this speed of motion is what is not right for the balance, negatively affecting light mechs.

[DaZur]

Alright…let’s dispense with this foolery.

I completely appreciate the point where Artgathan and Stjobe are coming from. At face value, yes it’s makes practical sense that a light should be more “maneuverable” than a Medium and a Medium more so than a Heavy and a Heavy more so than an Assault…. Even if you dispense with BT universe magic… it’s just sound logic.

I also appreciate the premise that PGI is negligent in recognizing this aspect by affording all mechs regardless of their weight class and design, the same axial rotation speed of 41.8 dps and turn radius of 24.7 meters.

All this being said… you guys are out of your flipping minds…

A mech rotating at 41.8 dps (Lets make is 42 for clean math) means a mech can rotate a full 360 degrees in roughly 8.6 seconds… You read that right, 8.6 seconds.

So exactly how much slower do you think an assault mech should pivot on its axis?

- Rotational speed measures how quickly an object rotates about the objects axis of rotation.
- For rotational speed we are concerned with how many radians an object has rotated through in some interval of time. (41.8 degrees-per-second or 360 degrees in 8.6 seconds)
- Tangential speed is concerned with the linear speed of an object, and the objects distance from the axis of rotation.
- Tangential speed acts tangent to the circular path the object is traveling along.



As this relates to MW:O and this discussion:

For the sake of simplicity of argument we’ll use make-believe math… Mech “A” = the targeting mech rotating on its axis tracking a target mech = “B”.

The farther mech “B” is from mech “A” the less axial rotation is required to maintain its facing on mech “B”. As mech “B” closes distance with mech “A” as some point midway, the axial rotation speed is equal to mech “B”s tangential rotation speed. As mech “B” proceed past that point, “B”s tangential rotational speed exceeds “A”s axial rotation speed.

In short… “math” is working as expected.

Assaults and heavies don't need their “agility” nerfed. At 42 degrees-per-second… they are abhorrently slow already.

What needs to happen as I alluded to in the opening is PGI needs to recognize the weight classes should not all have the same sized turn radius… ever.

TL,DR: You guys are approaching the "agility" problem from the wrong direction... Axial rotation speeds are fine, it's the turn radius of the lower mechs that need to be adjusted.

Edited by DaZur, 10 December 2013 - 01:41 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Phromethius, on 10 December 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

trust me Joseph I simply LOL when I die getting cored by an assault. in fact I usually congrat them on the nice shot. IF i was darting from cover or ran in front. But when I die because I take one to the side or to the leg and I am full speed 157kmph within 150 meters and already on your "3" trying to get to your "6" and you can simply turn and fire a second alpha to leg me or CT core me? that is when I start feeling like there is no amount of pilot skill that can negate that. And I feel as St Jobe and Artgathan do, that this speed of motion is what is not right for the balance, negatively affecting light mechs.

Being honest, I shouldn't need a second shot with the right load out. Sorry man I load up my Assaults just so I can drop the hammer on the enemy, IF I can tap you twice with with 40+ point alphas then I deserve to drop you in a heap. Just as if you can get to my six in the open, and stay there, I cannot do a thing to stop you. I die more to lights than any other single Mech and I kill the least of you. Give it a rest, you are getting killed by better players than you are, and you are not accepting it. Until you are dying to me more than 50% of the time you are not dying to much.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 10 December 2013 - 08:31 AM.

[Phromethius]

Let me try the bug analogy too because again I don't think we are disagreeing with anything that you are presenting as how you play Assaults Joe.

When you swat a fly you hold still and wait till you can BAMM take it down. When it crosses your downward arc of your hand rolled newspaper or fly swatter. What you CAN'T do at least I have never seen it done, is track the fly as it is buzzing around the room or to the sides of you WITH your rolled newspaper or swatter or whatever. And if you miss with that downward slam then you have to wait till it flies in front of you again or position again and set up the trap.

The Assault mechs have the ability to track place the targeting reticule CONSTANTLY on a light and that is the argument. Regardless of the speed and movement vector of the light mech


Edit: Bowing out because of the math idea presented above. I would happily accept a sharper turning radius for greater mobility!

Edited by Phromethius, 10 December 2013 - 08:34 AM.

[Sandpit]

It doesn't though. Period. Assault mechs cannot keep up with a light.
Whether it's twisting speed, twisting arc, or movement speed.

If you are constantly getting tracked by an assault mech while piloting a light try getting in closer and face hugging a bit more. I'm offering a different tactic to you because again I think it's good where it's at.

At this point, this conversation can only go in circles. There's two different opinions. Neither is right or wrong but both are valid. If they feel it's a big enough issue PGI will adjust it. If not, they won't. This will only keep going in circles though because both opinions have just as much vested in giving PGI their opinion and feedback on it.

[DaZur]

Sandpit, on 10 December 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

It doesn't though. Period. Assault mechs cannot keep up with a light.
Whether it's twisting speed, twisting arc, or movement speed.

Well, actually... yes they can. It's all dependant upon a mechs linear foot speed and the distance from the targeting mech to the targeted mech...

Try this exercise... Go stand by the highway and stand 50 yards from the road and track a car. Pretty easy right? Now go stand right next to the highway and track a single car... It's a blur right?

Same thing here... a fast moving mech at distance can be tracked by a stationary mech rotating on its axis so long as the stationary mechs rotational speed is equal or greater than the fast moving mechs linear foot speed. If that mech is close enough to the stationary mech that it's linear foot speed is greater than it's rotational speed (41.8 degrees per second btw) the stationary mech will find it more and more difficult to track as it draws closer.

[Joseph Mallan]

Phromethius, on 10 December 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

Let me try the bug analogy too because again I don't think we are disagreeing with anything that you are presenting as how you play Assaults Joe.

When you swat a fly you hold still and wait till you can BAMM take it down. When it crosses your downward arc of your hand rolled newspaper or fly swatter. What you CAN'T do at least I have never seen it done, is track the fly as it is buzzing around the room or to the sides of you WITH your rolled newspaper or swatter or whatever. And if you miss with that downward slam then you have to wait till it flies in front of you again or position again and set up the trap.

The Assault mechs have the ability to track place the targeting reticule CONSTANTLY on a light and that is the argument. Regardless of the speed and movement vector of the light mech

I do a great job snatching em out of the air with my bare hand. Which since a fly is so much more mobile than I am I should not be able to catch him at all. Get in an assault, use a standard 300 engine in an Atlas and see how easy it is to track a Light!

It is the same if I was to start complaining cause I Die to much in an Assault Mech... gimme more armor. I have died 2,182 out of 4,325 matches, everyone of them was my fault, by biting off more than I could handle or just not giving a darn, I died cause I messed up. It's not cause I don't have enough armor, or My enemy can twist to fast, excuses are excuses. And as the saying ends... they all stink.

[Artgathan]

DaZur, on 10 December 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

What needs to happen as I alluded to in the opening is PGI needs to recognize the weight classes should not all have the same sized turn radius… ever.

TL,DR: You guys are approaching the "agility" problem from the wrong direction... Axial rotation speeds are fine, it's the turn radius of the lower mechs that need to be adjusted.

I agree, but there's a formula that governs how "fast" something can turn in a certain radius. It's:

Speed = 2(pi)*Radius / Time

Where:

• Speed is the tangential speed, in m/s
  
• Radius is the size of the circle circumscribed by this mech, in metres
  
• Time is how fast the mech can turn the circle, in seconds

So if we increase the turning speed of a Locust to 120 degrees / second (which gives it a time of 3 seconds), running at 159.3 kph (42.75 m/s), the radius of the circle decreases to 20.41m. Essentially the Locust can now "face-hug" in a tighter circle. Alright I suppose, but it's still extremely vulnerable to whatever friends the Locust's target has nearby.

I agree that decreasing the turn speed for Assaults is tricky business (since it can start to take them forever to do 360 degree turns).

Consider though that decreasing the circle radius for light mechs will leave them increasingly vulnerable to collisions (if they should ever return), which could in fact make the small circle as big a death sentence as the current situation.

Mallan, I know you're a talented artist. Could I perhaps trouble you for a quick sketch of a Locust and one of an Atlas (2 separate drawings, as I'd like to use them independently)? I'd like to make a diagram (perhaps it'll help illustrate everything that's been said).

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

Just as if you can get to my six in the open, and stay there, I cannot do a thing to stop you.

But that's what we're saying, Joe - with the current turning speeds, torso twist ranges/speeds, and arm twist range/speed it is not mathematically possible for a light to stay on your six. Any assault has enough turning speed, torso twist speed, and/or arm reach/speed to keep up with any 'mech in the game, at least for as long as it takes to go to full torso twist - and then it's a very short window where you twist fully the other way and you're back to keeping that 171.1 kph light under your reticule.

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 10 December 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

But that's what we're saying, Joe - with the current turning speeds, torso twist ranges/speeds, and arm twist range/speed it is not mathematically possible for a light to stay on your six. Any assault has enough turning speed, torso twist speed, and/or arm reach/speed to keep up with any 'mech in the game, at least for as long as it takes to go to full torso twist - and then it's a very short window where you twist fully the other way and you're back to keeping that 171.1 kph light under your reticule.

Have you tried this? Seriously Jobe? Have you hopped in a Atlas and tried to do what you are claiming CAN be done? I ran a D-DC for Months, an any half way decent Light Pilot could stay out of my cross hairs while I'm sporting a 350 XL engine! The only way I could tag one is if I made an effort to anticipate his next move and opened up with a alpha full of Ballistics, Lasers an SRMs. I personally never see the likes of you in game anymore St, so I will conclude you are in a higher Elo than I. Maybe, just maybe the guys(and gals) you are dropping against are just better shots than me, have a better rig(computer) than you, or ar luckier than you.

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

Have you tried this? Seriously Jobe? Have you hopped in a Atlas and tried to do what you are claiming CAN be done? I ran a D-DC for Months, an any half way decent Light Pilot could stay out of my cross hairs while I'm sporting a 350 XL engine! The only way I could tag one is if I made an effort to anticipate his next move and opened up with a alpha full of Ballistics, Lasers an SRMs.

Well, you got me there Joe, I haven't. I have exactly 42 drops in assaults (since the stat reset anyway, probably have a few more from before that); 40 in my founder Atlas and 2 in a Phoenix Battlemaster.

But there's two sides of the coin, and I have well over a thousand drops in my Commandos alone, not to mention my Spiders and Locusts - and even with all that experience I find it exceedingly difficult to stay behind an assault that doesn't want me there. So I'm inclined to believe the math from those experiences.

But no, I haven't tested it from the assault pilot's seat.

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

I personally never see the likes of you in game anymore St, so I will conclude you are in a higher Elo than I. Maybe, just maybe the guys(and gals) you are dropping against are just better shots than me, have a better rig(computer) than you, or ar luckier than you.

Your Elo is probably too high for me; I've been in Elo hell for quite some time now, to the point where I've resigned myself to the fact that I just have to try to make the best of each and every match and ignore the fact that my team can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory with astonishing speed and prowess.

Edited by stjobe, 10 December 2013 - 11:34 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 10 December 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

Your Elo is probably too high for me; I've been in Elo hell for quite some time now, to the point where I've resigned myself to the fact that I just have to try to make the best of each and every match and ignore the fact that my team can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory with astonishing speed and prowess.

Down in my Elo Lights eat assaults as an appetizer

[Ngamok]

I suggested getting rid of speed tweak on heavies and assaults. Don't care if it's 5-10 KPH. Just means the mediums and lights can flank you faster. If you want to be an assault, then lumer along. They can add something like 5% weapon hardiness or something in it's place so the weapons don't get crit and get destroyed as easily or something.

[Clit Beastwood]

stjobe, on 10 December 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

Joe, come on. You know I'm a light pilot, and that I readily accept that it is my fate to die a grisly death if I manage to spend too much time in front of an assault.

But that's what we're trying to get through your thick head, that it is currently impossible to avoid against an assault pilot that's not distracted. The turning speeds and torso twist speeds means I cannot outmaneuver you. I cannot get out of your field of fire unless you do something stupid.

In short, it's not enough if I'm a better pilot than you in my light, you have to do something stupid to not be able to keep me in your sights, because the game mechanics mean you have the means to track me no matter what I do.

Too far away! less than 20m range or g t f o!