362 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Adiuvo, on 09 December 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

I haven't implied anything past what you've said yourself.

Artgathan is the only one who's provided facts here. You can't really argue with the math. I've also given you examples from two of the best pilots in the game.

I'm not arguing the math. The math is factual.

The opinion based on the math is subjective. The torso twisting and turning speed are good where they're at in my opinion. Yours is that they aren't. That doesn't change the math, it changes the opinion based on the math

[Artgathan]

Sandpit, on 09 December 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

I'm not arguing the math. The math is factual.

The opinion based on the math is subjective. The torso twisting and turning speed are good where they're at in my opinion. Yours is that they aren't. That doesn't change the math, it changes the opinion based on the math

Well let's use some claims from Battletech to investigate the value of these opinions. From http://www.sarna.net/wiki/BattleMech:

Quote

The trade-off is in speed and maneuverability, as assault 'Mechs are generally very slow. As such, they often require friendly units to protect them from being outmaneuvered.

Quote

Better armed than light 'Mechs, medium 'Mechs can often outmaneuver heavier opponents in combat and bring their weapons to bear with better effect to the point of being superior combatants in single combat, given time and suitable terrain.

Neither of these statements is true in MW:O. Assault mechs cannot be out-maneuvered due to their extremely fast turning and torso twisting abilities. Medium mechs, by extension, cannot out-maneuver heavier opponents for the reasons in the previous sentence. Therefore it would seem that Assault / Heavy mechs are too mobile.

Consider that in battletech a medium getting behind an Assault / Heavy is a very real threat, which contributes to the value of medium mechs on the field. Right now there is no real need for medium / light mechs (apart from fast scouts) since Heavy / Assault mechs can defend themselves from medium / light mechs without any sort of assistance.

[mekabuser]

tbh, i dont see the point in participating in threads like this anymore. maybe in six months when maybe we will see some advancements by the dev team .. and even then.. its just maybe at this point.

[Sandpit]

Artgathan, on 09 December 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

Well let's use some claims from Battletech to investigate the value of these opinions. From http://www.sarna.net/wiki/BattleMech:





Neither of these statements is true in MW:O. Assault mechs cannot be out-maneuvered due to their extremely fast turning and torso twisting abilities. Medium mechs, by extension, cannot out-maneuver heavier opponents for the reasons in the previous sentence. Therefore it would seem that Assault / Heavy mechs are too mobile.

Consider that in battletech a medium getting behind an Assault / Heavy is a very real threat, which contributes to the value of medium mechs on the field. Right now there is no real need for medium / light mechs (apart from fast scouts) since Heavy / Assault mechs can defend themselves from medium / light mechs without any sort of assistance.

ok if you want to go TT...

You also have movement points in a timed round. You move BEFORE you fire. You also have initiative to determine movement order. Which is completely random. All mechs have the exact same torso twist and forward firing arcs depending upon weapon placement, not weight, class, or anything else. You also have TACs, pilot modifier rolls, and JJs that allow complete turning and twisting while in mid-air. You also have terrain modifiers for to hit rolls.

Now if we're just talking movement rules of TT...

I can take that assault mech and fire in the exact same firing arc as a light mech. Torso twist has 0 affect on tracking a target. That means that you can't outrun a mech's ability to track and fire upon you based on movement speeds or torso twisting. The adjustments are made to base to hit modifiers that increase according to the number of hexes moved by both target and attacker.

There are absolutely NO modifiers for torso twisting and tracking a mech. The twisting speed IS different in MWO for each class. So are the maximum twist arcs.

[Artgathan]

Sandpit, on 09 December 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

ok if you want to go TT...

You also have movement points in a timed round. You move BEFORE you fire. You also have initiative to determine movement order. Which is completely random. All mechs have the exact same torso twist and forward firing arcs depending upon weapon placement, not weight, class, or anything else. You also have TACs, pilot modifier rolls, and JJs that allow complete turning and twisting while in mid-air. You also have terrain modifiers for to hit rolls.

Now if we're just talking movement rules of TT...

I can take that assault mech and fire in the exact same firing arc as a light mech. Torso twist has 0 affect on tracking a target. That means that you can't outrun a mech's ability to track and fire upon you based on movement speeds or torso twisting. The adjustments are made to base to hit modifiers that increase according to the number of hexes moved by both target and attacker.

There are absolutely NO modifiers for torso twisting and tracking a mech. The twisting speed IS different in MWO for each class. So are the maximum twist arcs.

https://yourlogicalf...sition-division

All of that is irrelevant. What I said was "hey look, there's a basis for smaller mechs being able to out-maneuver larger mechs available from the history of the franchise this game is based on. Maybe we should consider applying that here and it would help balance the game." Just because we may decide to make medium / light mechs more maneuverable than heavy / assault mechs in no way implies that we must also adopt all of the systems that the table top game has. Obviously many of those would not work here.

Also bear in mind that "tracking" a target is different from "shooting" a target. "Tracking" just means you have the ability to keep your sights over the target - it says nothing about your ability to hit it (as has been aptly demonstrated by many assault pilots).

[Sandpit]

Artgathan, on 09 December 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

https://yourlogicalf...sition-division

All of that is irrelevant. What I said was "hey look, there's a basis for smaller mechs being able to out-maneuver larger mechs available from the history of the franchise this game is based on. Maybe we should consider applying that here and it would help balance the game." Just because we may decide to make medium / light mechs more maneuverable than heavy / assault mechs in no way implies that we must also adopt all of the systems that the table top game has. Obviously many of those would not work here.

Also bear in mind that "tracking" a target is different from "shooting" a target. "Tracking" just means you have the ability to keep your sights over the target - it says nothing about your ability to hit it (as has been aptly demonstrated by many assault pilots).

Which again boils down to our opinions disagree with one another. I understand perfectly the differences in tracking and aiming. You are trying to pick and choose examples to support your opinion. I'm just pointing out things that support mine. It's not that you're wrong or that I'm right, it's I feel things are very well balanced where they're at. I think the game is very well balanced in its current form and doesn't require what you suggest.

[Artgathan]

Sandpit, on 09 December 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Which again boils down to our opinions disagree with one another. I understand perfectly the differences in tracking and aiming. You are trying to pick and choose examples to support your opinion. I'm just pointing out things that support mine. It's not that you're wrong or that I'm right, it's I feel things are very well balanced where they're at. I think the game is very well balanced in its current form and doesn't require what you suggest.

Negative on that.

Here was my argument:

Part of the balance between Light / Medium and Heavy / Assault mechs rests on the ability of Light / Medium mechs to out-maneuver Heavy / Assault mechs.

I then demonstrated that Light / Medium mechs cannot, in fact, out-maneuver Heavy / Assault mechs. This destroys an essential part of the Mobility - Firepower - Armor triangle and tips it in favour of Heavy / Assault mechs (who now have mobility on top of Armor and Firepower). I then suggested we restore balance to the triangle by reducing the mobility afforded to Heavy / Assault mechs.

You suggested that Assault mechs were not mobile enough (though this was shown to be untrue). You suggested that since Assault / Heavy mechs don't turn as fast as Light / Medium mechs, the system was fine. You also suggested that every mech having the same abilities somehow implied that the system was balanced (though this assertion is false - every mech does not, in fact, have the same abilities).

There's several problems with your arguments.

Firstly the relative turn speeds of mechs are not what is under discussion. We were not discussing the comparison of the turning ability of Lights vs Heavies or Mediums vs Assaults. We were not even, in fact, discussing a comparison of the relative tracking abilities of these mechs. What we were discussing is that Heavy / Assault mechs are too good at tracking targets.

You make the claim that "It's a fact that you [an assault mech] simply cannot turn and twist as fast as a light mech." This can be interpreted two different ways:

• How fast the Assault can turn vs how fast the light runs
  
• How fast each of them spins in place

I've demonstrated how the former is false (Assaults can turn and twist fast enough to keep up with lights) and the latter is irrelevant to the discussion.

You then suggested that every mech has the same abilities. While this statement is so vague as to be meaningless, most interpretations of "abilities" (top speed, turning speed, hardpoints, tonnage, ability to mount jump jets, ability to carry ECM, number of module slots, twisting arcs) would suggest that this statement is false.

What does this all boil down to?

I've proven that Assaults / Heavies are extremely agile, able to acquire and engage fast moving targets at extremely short ranges. The math supports this conclusion.

You say a bunch of stuff (much of which is false or unrelated to the discussion) that shows nothing, then submit your "feelings" as being as useful as the math shown earlier.

Opinions indeed.

[Sandpit]

Artgathan, on 09 December 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

Negative on that.

Here was my argument:

Part of the balance between Light / Medium and Heavy / Assault mechs rests on the ability of Light / Medium mechs to out-maneuver Heavy / Assault mechs.

I then demonstrated that Light / Medium mechs cannot, in fact, out-maneuver Heavy / Assault mechs. This destroys an essential part of the Mobility - Firepower - Armor triangle and tips it in favour of Heavy / Assault mechs (who now have mobility on top of Armor and Firepower). I then suggested we restore balance to the triangle by reducing the mobility afforded to Heavy / Assault mechs.

You suggested that Assault mechs were not mobile enough (though this was shown to be untrue). You suggested that since Assault / Heavy mechs don't turn as fast as Light / Medium mechs, the system was fine. You also suggested that every mech having the same abilities somehow implied that the system was balanced (though this assertion is false - every mech does not, in fact, have the same abilities).

There's several problems with your arguments.

Firstly the relative turn speeds of mechs are not what is under discussion. We were not discussing the comparison of the turning ability of Lights vs Heavies or Mediums vs Assaults. We were not even, in fact, discussing a comparison of the relative tracking abilities of these mechs. What we were discussing is that Heavy / Assault mechs are too good at tracking targets.

You make the claim that "It's a fact that you [an assault mech] simply cannot turn and twist as fast as a light mech." This can be interpreted two different ways:

• How fast the Assault can turn vs how fast the light runs
  
• How fast each of them spins in place

I've demonstrated how the former is false (Assaults can turn and twist fast enough to keep up with lights) and the latter is irrelevant to the discussion.


You then suggested that every mech has the same abilities. While this statement is so vague as to be meaningless, most interpretations of "abilities" (top speed, turning speed, hardpoints, tonnage, ability to mount jump jets, ability to carry ECM, number of module slots, twisting arcs) would suggest that this statement is false.

What does this all boil down to?

I've proven that Assaults / Heavies are extremely agile, able to acquire and engage fast moving targets at extremely short ranges. The math supports this conclusion.

You say a bunch of stuff (much of which is false or unrelated to the discussion) that shows nothing, then submit your "feelings" as being as useful as the math shown earlier.

Opinions indeed.

Ok, let me say it like this then....

Each individual mech has twist speeds and maximum twisting arcs.

Assaults do not twist as fast as lights.

A face hugging light can and will circle faster than an assault mech can rotate with depending on the chassis. This is factual because I've done it and had to fend it off. This is what makes torso and arm mounted weapons different. Those arms are going to swing around faster than the torso.

Your opinion is they need to be adjusted because you think they're too agile at the moment. My opinion is that they do not need to be adjusted. OPINION

I don't know how else to break it down. Just because someone doesn't agree with your opinion doesn't mean they're wrong, misinformed, or don't understand. It means that based on the factual evidence, their opinion is different. I understand everything you're saying. I understand the factual evidence on it. I don't agree that it needs to be adjusted because it is balanced now as it stands

[stjobe]

Sandpit, on 09 December 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

Each individual mech has twist speeds and maximum twisting arcs.

True, but irrelevant.

Sandpit, on 09 December 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

Assaults do not twist as fast as lights.

True, but irrelevant.

Sandpit, on 09 December 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

A face hugging light can and will circle faster than an assault mech can rotate with depending on the chassis.

Here's the thing that's contentious. Artgathan has shown that a Stalker can track any 'mech, be it light or otherwise, at ranges over 100m, 'mechs going slower than 125kph at ranges over 50m, and 'mechs going slower than 64kph at ranges over 25m, just by turning (i.e. not torso-twisting). Torso-twisting enables it to track any 'mech in the game at any range.

Your use of "face-hugging" may well be your way to say "less than 25m", but you'd be better off stating a number than using an emotionally laden vague non-value. Either way, using torso twist, the Stalker is indeed able to track "face-hugging lights" for as long as it takes to hit its max torso twist.

Sandpit, on 09 December 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

This is what makes torso and arm mounted weapons different. Those arms are going to swing around faster than the torso.

True, but irrelevant since the torso twist of the Stalker enables it to track any target at any speed at any distance, even "face-hugging".

Sandpit, on 09 December 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

I don't agree that it needs to be adjusted because it is balanced now as it stands

How is it balanced that assaults can negate the one thing speedier 'mechs are supposed to be superior to them in?

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 10 December 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

How is it balanced that assaults can negate the one thing speedier 'mechs are supposed to be superior to them in?

Until I can run at 151 KpH a Light will still be faster than me. But cause I'm bigger does not necessarily mean I have to be reflexively slower.

[Artgathan]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

Until I can run at 151 KpH a Light will still be faster than me. But cause I'm bigger does not necessarily mean I have to be reflexively slower.

You don't need to be able to run as fast as something to be able to shoot it.

[Joseph Mallan]

Artgathan, on 10 December 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

You don't need to be able to run as fast as something to be able to shoot it.

Point I was trying to make is that I don't need to be faster than a Light Mech to be able to track it. I have to have good reflex action.

[Artgathan]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

Point I was trying to make is that I don't need to be faster than a Light Mech to be able to track it. I have to have good reflex action.

Why? Shouldn't you have teammates present to help protect you?

Interlocking fields of fire? Infantry to support the armor? I know you're a grunt (I am too).

We need a reason for Light / Medium mechs. They need to be a credible threat to larger mechs. They can't be if the larger mechs have the ability to reliably track them and the ability to destroy them in one shot.

[Joseph Mallan]

Artgathan, on 10 December 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

Why? Shouldn't you have teammates present to help protect you?

Interlocking fields of fire? Infantry to support the armor? I know you're a grunt (I am too).

We need a reason for Light / Medium mechs. They need to be a credible threat to larger mechs. They can't be if the larger mechs have the ability to reliably track them and the ability to destroy them in one shot.

I am a credible threat to Heavies and Assaults in my Kintaro. Unless I am up against a better team, then, I am dead pretty quick. The reliability to track, come with the hands of the pilot. I can hardly track a fast light, others can do it in their sleep. that is working as intended, the pilots skill decides if they can or cannot track a fast target. For me, as is, It is hard enough to get a light kill that I feel it is fine.

Nice to see someone know about fields of fire

Also one solid Alpha should be able to cripple/kill a light. One AC20 hit on TT was a Death Knell to most Lights! Lights are fast strike units not brawlers.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 10 December 2013 - 07:22 AM.

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

The reliability to track, come with the hands of the pilot. I can hardly track a fast light, others can do it in their sleep. that is working as intended, the pilots skill decides if they can or cannot track a fast target. For me, as is, It is hard enough to get a light kill that I feel it is fine.

But what Artgathan is saying, and I support him saying, is that the ability to track targets is too high; not because it takes skill to do so, but because it's possible at all. That a Stalker can track any 'mech in the game at any distance invalidates the mobility advantage lights and mediums are supposed to have against that Stalker.

The Stalker already has the advantage of Armour and Firepower, it doesn't need to have Mobility as well, and by rights it shouldn't have - because that leaves nothing for the lighter weight classes.

Lights are supposed to have superior mobility, but that means nothing if they can't use it due to tracking speeds being such that it's entirely possible to track targets moving more than twice as fast as any 'mech can - how can you exploit the supposedly slow and lumbering pace of an Assault if it can turn and twist just as fast as you can run around it?

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 10 December 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

But what Artgathan is saying, and I support him saying, is that the ability to track targets is too high; not because it takes skill to do so, but because it's possible at all. That a Stalker can track any 'mech in the game at any distance invalidates the mobility advantage lights and mediums are supposed to have against that Stalker.

The Stalker already has the advantage of Armour and Firepower, it doesn't need to have Mobility as well, and by rights it shouldn't have - because that leaves nothing for the lighter weight classes.

Lights are supposed to have superior mobility, but that means nothing if they can't use it due to tracking speeds being such that it's entirely possible to track targets moving more than twice as fast as any 'mech can - how can you exploit the supposedly slow and lumbering pace of an Assault if it can turn and twist just as fast as you can run around it?

You are mixing up Mobility with Reflex. All Lights are more mobile than Heavies and Assaults. But get under my Cross hairs for even a second and I can end that Light in an instant. If a bad light gets killed cause he isn't using his mobility right (myself for distance) it is not the Assault's fault that I can't pilot a Light.

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

You are mixing up Mobility with Reflex. All Lights are more mobile than Heavies and Assaults. But get under my Cross hairs for even a second and I can end that Light in an instant. If a bad light gets killed cause he isn't using his mobility right (myself for distance) it is not the Assault's fault that I can't pilot a Light.

I'm not mixing up anything, that ability of "ending a Light in an instant" is exactly what we're talking about - the speed of your Fatlas turning/torso twisting is too high, it has zero to do with movement speed.

I don't know if I can explain it any other way, it's been said so many times already in this thread and still people seem to miss it: It is not the walking/running speed that is at issue here, it's the turning/torso twist/arm movement speed. If a light can't move faster than you can track it, it has no mobility advantage.

And that's where we are right now. An assault can track most targets just by turning (no torso twist needed), and all targets by torso twisting, no matter what range they're at.

In short, currently it's impossible for a light to outmaneuver an assault other than by pilot error on the assault's part.

That is wrong.

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 10 December 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

I'm not mixing up anything, that ability of "ending a Light in an instant" is exactly what we're talking about - the speed of your Fatlas turning/torso twisting is too high, it has zero to do with movement speed.

I don't know if I can explain it any other way, it's been said so many times already in this thread and still people seem to miss it: It is not the walking/running speed that is at issue here, it's the turning/torso twist/arm movement speed. If a light can't move faster than you can track it, it has no mobility advantage.

And that's where we are right now. An assault can track most targets just by turning (no torso twist needed), and all targets by torso twisting, no matter what range they're at.

In short, currently it's impossible for a light to outmaneuver an assault other than by pilot error on the assault's part.

That is wrong.

I don't turn my Atlas much as it is a losing proposition, I let you run under my Cross hairs for better results. And ending a Light in an instant has been going on for 30 years. It may not be easy but swatting a fly with your bare hand is a good example. Its fast and hard to hit, but once I do It is over. Light Mechs are supposed to be hard to hit (which they are for me), but when you hit them with heavy weapons they are made of glass. name me any fast attack craft that can take heavy fire and survive.

Plain and simple if you wanna be fast, accept the consequences of that decision. Just like i do when in my Kintaro. When I die unexpectedly I normally type,"Gotta remember, this is not an Atlas!!!"

[Phromethius]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

I don't turn my Atlas much as it is a losing proposition, I let you run under my Cross hairs for better results. And ending a Light in an instant has been going on for 30 years. It may not be easy but swatting a fly with your bare hand is a good example. Its fast and hard to hit, but once I do It is over. Light Mechs are supposed to be hard to hit (which they are for me), but when you hit them with heavy weapons they are made of glass. name me any fast attack craft that can take heavy fire and survive.

Plain and simple if you wanna be fast, accept the consequences of that decision. Just like i do when in my Kintaro. When I die unexpectedly I normally type,"Gotta remember, this is not an Atlas!!!"

This is what they are saying. I lurk mostly but had to log in to help this discussion along. I see what you are saying about reflex. And that is true when it is implemented like the Cross hair trap you set for yourself. They cross your line of fire and you have the reflexes to pull the trigger the light SHOULD in fact go down. However as an Assault, even factoring in pilot reflexes, the mech should not be able to catch up to and lead the reticule on a light mech target moving laterally across the field of view. Essentially an Assault mech should NOT be able to line up a shot on a fast moving target, but if they are a good pilot can get off the shots when the light makes the mistake of crossing the current line of fire or circling around the front of the mech. T

That is the argument presented. Tracking the light mech is too fast. Negating the mobility of the light mech. Track all you want if a light pilot runs head long in your current firing solution, but not if it is darting laterally to get around to your back side.

To further show I am not on anyone's "SIDE" IF an Assault pilot had the intuition to predict the tactic of said light and PRE-led his target reticule to anticipate a flanking maneuver, then again pilot skill wins the day and the light should suffer the wrath of an alpha. But again this would only work because the light itself would be crossing the reticule not the Assault placing the reticule on the mech moving 4 times as fast.

[Karl Streiger]

Hey Joseph there is a small flaw in your argumentation - yes a Atlas should be able to track a fast target and give it a kiss with its Killer AC...
But on the other hand if the game modes stay in the same way (and they will not change) and the maps stay as tinny as they are - 80% of the Light Mech Roll is useless.

Light Mechs should Harass -> but should they harass other Mechs - or installations or Convois?
Light Mechs should scout -> not on maps 2x2 km but areas of 1,000 x 1,000 km
Light Mechs are cheap alternatives for urban combat if they have jump jets (No Cost = Heavy or Assault wiht JumpJets)

So we have to change the rolles in a way it was never supposed to be:
Assault Mechs are the Aircraft Carriers or Battleships - and light Mechs are those German submarines with a fanatical or desperate crew - while Mediums must be a kind of light cruisers or destroyers

Under no circumstances a assault should have any chances to beat a Light Mech that is not piloted by a green horn.
If we have more game modes and a campaign setting and a working roll for Lights - we can undo this Ghost Movement Cap layer and have Assaults that are as agile as a Light (Clan Executioner)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 10 December 2013 - 08:08 AM.