362 replies to this topic

[Nik Van Rhijn]

And its not "apples to oranges", they're both mechs so it's more tangerines to clementines.

[Wispsy]

Trauglodyte, on 11 December 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

Now, he was smart in seeing the dual PPCs so he wanted to stay within 90m to keep the damage down to just the AC20. But, even doing that, he still screwed himself by not changing up his pathing. Running figure 8s is a much better choice, especially given the torso twist angle of the Cicada. And, he could have done a much better job of staying behind the mech.

Well one it is a video on how broken HSR is...that Cicada would not have lasted so long if shots hit at the places they happened to be aimed at. That being said, running figure 8s at that kind of level is just going to get you killed, like instantly, with you being behind the enemy assault at no time at all during the fight. You are going to start the arc of your 8 and he is just going to shoot you as you run in a nice predictable path, leaving the 90m minimum range, to then run straight back at him...

Honestly I think people need to realise that the only reason their light ever lives in a game is due to bad pilots in all the heavies and assaults. Sure I can jump in a light and get 8/9 kill games all day at starting Elo...but that **** just does not fly when you are against somebody with half decent mouse control who can click on a rather large area moving slowly across their screen...Hell even I can do it and this is my first ever FPS on the pc outside of MW4:Mercs single player.

I very much think if they do not want to reduce how quickly Assaults can turn then they should make the lighter mechs more agile, so they actually have a choice in whether or not they are dead because they are near an Assault, instead of whether the Assault decides to shoot or not and if he does hope he is simply bad and misses due to shakey hands. I am all for Assaults having the most armour and firepower in the game but they should have at least some weakness else tonnage limits are always going to be the only ever way to force the population to play anything else if they happen to want to win.

[Trauglodyte]

Wispsy, on 11 December 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

[/size]

Well one it is a video on how broken HSR is...that Cicada would not have lasted so long if shots hit at the places they happened to be aimed at. That being said, running figure 8s at that kind of level is just going to get you killed, like instantly, with you being behind the enemy assault at no time at all during the fight. You are going to start the arc of your 8 and he is just going to shoot you as you run in a nice predictable path, leaving the 90m minimum range, to then run straight back at him...

It def showed HSR issues which is why I mentioned that before. The Highlander had backup but he was pounding that X-5 with AC20s and I'd say almost none of them registered. I've seen Villz play and he's not some bad that misses like that, high ping or not.

As to me talking about running 8s, it was more for mechs with JJs and to actually say that you shouldn't be predictable. Villz, you, Kaffe, and others like them aren't going to get eaten by some random Light. And they're certainly not going to get eaten by someone running in continuous circles (again, see the afore mentioned HSR issue). In reality, the only Lights that might give high end Assaults and Heavies issues are badass pilots like you using JJs to keep your positioning against mechs that don't have them. Otherwise, you're pitting non-JJ against agile enough non-JJs or non-JJs against even more agile JJ mechs. In either case, especially with today's loadouts, that circling mech is going to get hosed in a hurry.

We need to find a way to balance out weight issues as well as the year and a half plus time where JJ capable mechs just out quick everything without them. I spent my first 6 months in game getting eaten by you Wispy and I've seen great Jenner pilots and Spider pilots jump around like ninjas. And, that vid showed the nimbleness of a JJing Assault. Until something is done, there is going to be a lot of have nots versus the haves. There is a reason why the meta-12s are made up of Jenners, Shawks, 3Ds, Victors, and Highlanders.

[DaZur]

stjobe, on 11 December 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

I don't know what turn speed or torso twist speed would be needed for a Light to at least mathematically be able to stay behind an Assault that tries to stop it from doing so; but I do think it would be worth a try to increase reduce the turn speed and torso twist speed on the lighter heavier 'mechs to try to carve out a niche for the lighter 'mechs.

Fixed that for you...

At 41.8 degrees-per-second, that comes out to 8.6 seconds for an Assault to pivot 360 degrees on axis. I'm not sure we could ask them to rotate any slower unless we play with the space / time continuum.

Bare in mind it's more than just rotational speed... We also need their turn radius reduced to allow them to turn "inside" the turn radius of Assaults and Heavies.

Edited by DaZur, 11 December 2013 - 02:55 PM.

[stjobe]

DaZur, on 11 December 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

[/size]
Fixed that for you...

At 41.8 degrees-per-second, that comes out to 8.6 seconds for an Assault to pivot 360 degrees on axis. I'm not sure we could ask them to rotate any slower unless we play with space / time continuum.

Bare in mind it's more than just rotational speed... We also need their turn radius reduced to allow them to turn "inside" the turn radius of Assaults and Heavies.

Sure, we could increase the already high mobility of lights/mediums to try to compensate for the way-too-high tracking ability of the heavies/assaults, but don't you think that's a bit bass-ackwards? Seeing as I already think the 'mechs in MWO move to quickly, I do think that it is.

Personally, I think increasing light mobility would be largely wasted, they're agile enough that it's more often the pilot that sets the limit than the 'mech (I often find myself a bit surprised that the torso lags behind the mouse when I drop in an un-elited medium or heavy - it doesn't do that in my Commandos).

[Artgathan]

DaZur, on 11 December 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

[/size]
Fixed that for you...

At 41.8 degrees-per-second, that comes out to 8.6 seconds for an Assault to pivot 360 degrees on axis. I'm not sure we could ask them to rotate any slower unless we play with the space / time continuum.

Bare in mind it's more than just rotational speed... We also need their turn radius reduced to allow them to turn "inside" the turn radius of Assaults and Heavies.

I agree that increasing the speed / agility of the lights is another way to attack the problem. However I think there's an upper limit as to what speeds are "controllable". For instance: the Locust can torso twist 400+ degrees / second with a 190 engine. It turns at roughly 108 degrees / second as well. If we increase it too much, the mechs might become unplayable because they're too fast and it becomes disorienting for the pilot.

[DaZur]

stjobe, on 11 December 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

Sure, we could increase the already high mobility of lights/mediums to try to compensate for the way-too-high tracking ability of the heavies/assaults, but don't you think that's a bit bass-ackwards? Seeing as I already think the 'mechs in MWO move to quickly, I do think that it is.

Artgathan, on 11 December 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

I agree that increasing the speed / agility of the lights is another way to attack the problem. However I think there's an upper limit as to what speeds are "controllable". For instance: the Locust can torso twist 400+ degrees / second with a 190 engine. It turns at roughly 108 degrees / second as well. If we increase it too much, the mechs might become unplayable because they're too fast and it becomes disorienting for the pilot.

Keep in mind guys "speed" does not equate "agility"...

While this statement is completely unqualified... I have to agree that the mechs "feel" like they are moving faster than their ground-speed infers. As far as we know PGI can tell us that assault is hoofing at 55 kph when in actuality it's moving at 70... I'm not sure how we could qualify the accuracy of this however.

That said, for the sake of argument... lets assume ground-speeds are fudged. Lets ask PGI to reduce the global applied ground-speed by 10 percent (This might even be a tad much)... Keep Assault axial rotation speed at 42 degrees-per-second, increase Heavies axial speed to 45 dps, Medium axial speed to 50 dps and Lights increased to 60 dps. (Since as it's applied in MW:O, increasing a mechs axial speed reduces it's turn radius)

End result would be Assaults move in ponderous fashion, and "agility" is increased in a linear fashion on down, allowing each class to not only "feel" more agile but actually"be", by virtue of tighter turn radius, more agile.

How would this benefit MW:O?

Closure-speeds would be directly mitigated, allowing Assaults to be heavily armored / weaponized vanguard assets... Heavies, depending upon their speed and load outs would fit the profile of either skirmisher or striker and Mediums would be elevated to the work-horse roll by being able to actually out-maneuver both Assaults and Heavies and Lights would surely excel at the scout and or interdiction roles...

It's becoming more and more evident to me that the fact that all mechs, regardless of class, exhibit the exact same axial rotation and turn radius is a primary contributor to the present balance deficit.

To play off one of my earlier comments... What good is driving a Porsche if it handles identically to a Dump Truck discounting speed?

Again... "Speed" does not = "Agility". "Maneuverability" = "Agility".

Edited by DaZur, 12 December 2013 - 07:11 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Artgathan, on 11 December 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

This isn't about circle strafing. This is literally "no light mech can ever escape from the crosshairs of the slowest mech in the game".

Being that slowest 'Mech on the field, I can attest to the fact that you are in fact wrong.

[BillyM]

Dazur is right on the money on all the above. I've often wondered how positive a simple 10% decrease in groundspeed and responsiveness would be to the game....

[Doctor Proctor]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 December 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

Being that slowest 'Mech on the field, I can attest to the fact that you are in fact wrong.

Then I guess that's why most players pilot Mediums since they offer the best....LOL, sorry, couldn't get that out with a straight face. The current meta heavily favors Assaults. I've dropped in matches with 9+ at times. If Assaults are slow and can't track fast mechs, those 9 Assaults would get destroyed by a few really fast Mediums that could pick them apart.

Instead, what happens is that I'll be piloting my 4G Hunchback and I'll come in around the side of an Atlas to try and get behind him and open up his back with my AC/20. He'll see me in his peripheral vision and start turning. Before I can close he's already got a bead on me and starts opening up with arm mounted weapons, doing some minor damage. I start turning in to close around to his backside, but can't turn fast enough to stay ahead of his turn speed (not to mention his torso twist and arm speed).

If I slow down at this point to see if he'll overcorrect past me, I'll die. Also, I can't change speed nearly fast as he can turn, so max speed is basically the only speed that matters. If I try to peel off and get behind cover to find another angle, I'll get an alpha to the back and quite possibly die. If I continue the circle of death, eventually he will out maneuver me and probably blow off my hunch in one to two volleys. So essentially, once I've engaged, I'm dead. Period. The only hope is that perhaps I can engage along with another mech in a 2v1, since then he has to split fire and attention.

Now, some would say "Oh, but it's an Assault, OF COURSE he should beat you!". Which is fine I suppose, if you want everyone and their Mom piloting Assault mechs...which is kinda what's happening now (in particular, Highlander 733C's are quite common). Also, this game was supposed to make every mech class viable, which would mean that a skilled Medium pilot should have a chance against a lone Assault. Not guaranteed, but a chance...the only way that will happen though is if that Medium pilot can get behind the Assault, out of the reach of his weapons, and concentrate on the thinner back armor. If firing at the front, the Medium will lose EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. That's not balance.

So even if we call the whole Light v Assault thing a wash (bad aim makes up for the fact that Assaults can track them on a technical level), Medium v Assault is almost a death sentence. Medium v Heavy is also pretty dicey most of the time. My 4G does not fare well against AC/40 Jagers, for example. I usually can't stay to the side or their back long enough in a fight and one or two volleys from them will kill me, whereas it takes upwards of 4 from me to kill them assuming they have an XL, more if they don't.

[Trauglodyte]

DaZur, on 12 December 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

[/size]

Keep in mind guys "speed" does not equate "agility"...

While this statement is completely unqualified... I have to agree that the mechs "feel" like they are moving faster than their ground-speed infers. As far as we know PGI can tell us that assault is hoofing at 55 kph when in actuality it's moving at 70... I'm not sure how we could qualify the accuracy of this however.

That said, for the sake of argument... lets assume ground-speeds are fudged. Lets ask PGI to reduce the global applied ground-speed by 10 percent (This might even be a tad much)... Keep Assault axial rotation speed at 42 degrees-per-second, increase Heavies axial speed to 45 dps, Medium axial speed to 50 dps and Lights increased to 60 dps. (Since as it's applied in MW:O, increasing a mechs axial speed reduces it's turn radius)

You mean like just getting rid of Speed Tweak? Quite frankly, the Elite efficiencies have gone WAY overboard on hurting the game.

[Joseph Mallan]

Doctor Proctor, on 12 December 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

Then I guess that's why most players pilot Mediums since they offer the best....LOL, sorry, couldn't get that out with a straight face. The current meta heavily favors Assaults. I've dropped in matches with 9+ at times. If Assaults are slow and can't track fast mechs, those 9 Assaults would get destroyed by a few really fast Mediums that could pick them apart.

As I have said quite a few times Medium is middle of the road. Never the best at anything. Expecting it to be so is fooling yourself.

Quote

Instead, what happens is that I'll be piloting my 4G Hunchback and I'll come in around the side of an Atlas to try and get behind him and open up his back with my AC/20. He'll see me in his peripheral vision and start turning. Before I can close he's already got a bead on me and starts opening up with arm mounted weapons, doing some minor damage. I start turning in to close around to his backside, but can't turn fast enough to stay ahead of his turn speed (not to mention his torso twist and arm speed).

ow is it that yor 50 ton Mechs cannot out turn a 100 ton 'Mech moving around 50-60KpH?

Quote

If I slow down at this point to see if he'll overcorrect past me, I'll die. Also, I can't change speed nearly fast as he can turn, so max speed is basically the only speed that matters. If I try to peel off and get behind cover to find another angle, I'll get an alpha to the back and quite possibly die. If I continue the circle of death, eventually he will out maneuver me and probably blow off my hunch in one to two volleys. So essentially, once I've engaged, I'm dead. Period. The only hope is that perhaps I can engage along with another mech in a 2v1, since then he has to split fire and attention.

Its the chance we take when trying to attack an Assault. I do know that my Kentaro at 103 KpH has little trouble staying ahead of an Atlas when circling.

Quote

Now, some would say "Oh, but it's an Assault, OF COURSE he should beat you!". Which is fine I suppose, if you want everyone and their Mom piloting Assault mechs...which is kinda what's happening now (in particular, Highlander 733C's are quite common). Also, this game was supposed to make every mech class viable, which would mean that a skilled Medium pilot should have a chance against a lone Assault. Not guaranteed, but a chance...the only way that will happen though is if that Medium pilot can get behind the Assault, out of the reach of his weapons, and concentrate on the thinner back armor. If firing at the front, the Medium will lose EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. That's not balance.

I am not quite as good as I'd like to be in a Medium, but I have done quite well lately. Your Hunchback with an AC20 has to give up speed for firepower, trying to match firepower with an Atlas is a bad idea when you are half its weight and only marginally faster!

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So even if we call the whole Light v Assault thing a wash (bad aim makes up for the fact that Assaults can track them on a technical level), Medium v Assault is almost a death sentence. Medium v Heavy is also pretty dicey most of the time. My 4G does not fare well against AC/40 Jagers, for example. I usually can't stay to the side or their back long enough in a fight and one or two volleys from them will kill me, whereas it takes upwards of 4 from me to kill them assuming they have an XL, more if they don't.

Your 4G should not fair well against twice your fire power! Specially when that is added to it being faster an better armored than a 4G!

[DaZur]

Another point to consider... that in hindsight would negate the need to nerf ground speed is that "ground-speed" should have a direct correlative effect on a mechs turn "speed".

Fact is right now... virtually everyone runs around at full tilt because there is no penalty for doing so. When in reality, the faster a mechs ground-speed is, the greater it's turn radius should become...

​In short, logically... to "be" more maneuverable a mech should be forced to slow down to do so.

If this was put in place, it would bring meaning to a mechs ability to slow down and accelerate (Modules?) ... Pilots would need to govern speeds to maneuver (no more set it-and-forget it) throttle... and it would automatically play into the turn radius premise we're forwarding...

I mean it's common logic that you can't maneuver as quickly at a full run as you do at a jog... Why would our Mechs be any different?

Thoughts?

Edited by DaZur, 12 December 2013 - 08:26 AM.

[Sandpit]

wait, not we're asking why a 50 ton mech going heads up with an assualt class mech probably isn't going to end well for the medium.....?

DaZur, on 12 December 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

Fact is right now... virtually everyone runs around at full tilt because there is no penalty for doing so. When in reality, the faster a mechs ground-speed is, the greater it's turn radius should become...

Uhm, not true...

It's called heat

[Phromethius]

The best part about Rock Paper Scissors? Paper beats rock. Rock actually has something that defeats it.

Assaults NEED to have some weakness against things smaller than themselves. Right now in the game they do not. Now before you post Joseph, I'm sorry you have problems against lights. I WISH I played against pilots like you. I love my Jenners. But Jagers following my XL300 speed tweaked Jenner is WRONG. Atlases tracking my jenner within point blank range is WRONG. I play a scrapper build with SPLs and SRM4s. I have to get in close and behind. I cannot a lot of the time with my max agility and speed. Where is the Paper beats rock in that?

Also there should be NO HEAVY that is faster under any circumstance than any medium. That breaks the weight classes. This is going in circles because of anecdotal stories left and right. Mediums do not have a place because all heavies can out maneuver them. Lights have trouble because Assaults can track them down. This is why only heavies and assaults are fielded.

[DaZur]

Sandpit, on 12 December 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Uhm, not true... It's called heat.

No offense SP but that arbitrary smidge of heat applied while moving is of little consequence...

In fact I wager very few but the most ardent MW fan even knows/notices there's a bump in baseline heat when in motion.

[Doctor Proctor]

Sandpit, on 12 December 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

wait, not we're asking why a 50 ton mech going heads up with an assualt class mech probably isn't going to end well for the medium.....?

As I said, if you're one of the people that thinks that Assaults should beat every other class, then we should all run Assault mechs. There is literally no reason to run anything else then. All tonnage limits would serve to do then is to say to some players "Sorry, but you're going to die because you're going to get stuck into a straight up inferior mech that will lose every match up. But hey, it's balanced!"

[Joseph Mallan]

Phromethius, on 12 December 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

The best part about Rock Paper Scissors? Paper beats rock. Rock actually has something that defeats it.

Assaults NEED to have some weakness against things smaller than themselves. Right now in the game they do not. Now before you post Joseph, I'm sorry you have problems against lights. I WISH I played against pilots like you. I love my Jenners. But Jagers following my XL300 speed tweaked Jenner is WRONG. Atlases tracking my jenner within point blank range is WRONG. I play a scrapper build with SPLs and SRM4s. I have to get in close and behind. I cannot a lot of the time with my max agility and speed. Where is the Paper beats rock in that?

Also there should be NO HEAVY that is faster under any circumstance than any medium. That breaks the weight classes. This is going in circles because of anecdotal stories left and right. Mediums do not have a place because all heavies can out maneuver them. Lights have trouble because Assaults can track them down. This is why only heavies and assaults are fielded.

Bite your toungue! I fear lights more than I do Assaults, I can, with a big enough engine) out maneuver anther Assault. That is not the case with Lights. I can face the paper cuts all day but only if the Light pilot makes a mistake do I get to put cross hairs on them.

[DaZur]

Phromethius, on 12 December 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

Also there should be NO HEAVY that is faster under any circumstance than any medium. That breaks the weight classes. This is going in circles because of anecdotal stories left and right. Mediums do not have a place because all heavies can out maneuver them. Lights have trouble because Assaults can track them down. This is why only heavies and assaults are fielded.

I partially disagree with you here... A Dump Truck going 100 kph and a Mini Cooper going 100 kph are not equal under my forward premise.

Because of it's mass and inherent inertia, the Dump Truck should be in no way as maneuverable as the Cooper. The Cooper should accelerate faster, stop faster and even at full clip... should have a small turn radius secondary to linear speed.

In short... theoretically, the combination of mass + speed should actually be deficits and not advantages.

Mass & Inertia should be a female dog

Edited by DaZur, 12 December 2013 - 09:03 AM.

[Phromethius]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 December 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

Bite your toungue! I fear lights more than I do Assaults,

Mutual respect my big boned stompy brother!

DaZur, on 12 December 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Because of it's mass and inherent inertia, the Dump Truck should be in no way as maneuverable as the Cooper. The Cooper should accelerate faster, stop faster and even at full clip... should have a small turn radius secondary to linear speed.

I can see what you mean. To a SMALL extent it is there in the game already. When I find myself orbiting ( I don't use this as a standard tactic) I usually will slow down a fraction and try to cut in sharper. It does allow for a smaller radius at slower speeds. Sometimes I stop alltogether jump to confuse, pivot in the air and land in another direction and accelerate away. But those cases I am usually tracked and either loose an arm or take the chance to get legged mid air.

Can the game engine handle centrifugal physics anyways? How would they add that to motion animations?