362 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Doctor Proctor, on 12 December 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

As I said, if you're one of the people that thinks that Assaults should beat every other class, then we should all run Assault mechs. There is literally no reason to run anything else then. All tonnage limits would serve to do then is to say to some players "Sorry, but you're going to die because you're going to get stuck into a straight up inferior mech that will lose every match up. But hey, it's balanced!"

Wow, you make some pretty good jumps and assumptions there. Feel free to peruse through this very thread to one of my earlier posts about taking down Atlases in my Jenny because I can face hug and keep from getting shot. 1v1 a light can usually take down those big mechs if the light pilots knows what they're doing.

A light isn't a medium. A hunchback going toe to toe with my stalker head-on is asking to get destroyed early on unless they're just a whole lot better at piloting than I am and/or get real lucky

[DaZur]

Phromethius, on 12 December 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

Can the game engine handle centrifugal physics anyways? How would they add that to motion animations?

Agreed it does model is ever so slightly... Problem is it's global. An Assault pilot who reduces speed 5% still has the same turn radius as a Light pilot who reduces their speed 5%.

Even if the game engine handled centripetal forces... the processor taxation might not be worth the overhead. The easier way to elicit the same results would to establish a relationship between a mechs mass + speed = + or - turn radius reduction in a linear fashion.

[Doctor Proctor]

Sandpit, on 12 December 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

Wow, you make some pretty good jumps and assumptions there. Feel free to peruse through this very thread to one of my earlier posts about taking down Atlases in my Jenny because I can face hug and keep from getting shot. 1v1 a light can usually take down those big mechs if the light pilots knows what they're doing.

A light isn't a medium. A hunchback going toe to toe with my stalker head-on is asking to get destroyed early on unless they're just a whole lot better at piloting than I am and/or get real lucky

Fine, Assaults and Lights then.

Also, I didn't say toe to toe as in face to face. Obviously that would be silly. I would want to get behind your Stalker and try to hit you in the back with my weapons, but that's almost impossible to do against any reasonably competent pilot due to the math of turn speeds. You still have yet to produce ANY scrap of math beyond "Oh yeah, well, in my Stalker...." hyperbole and anecdotes, so excuse me if I don't put much stock in your arguments.

Again, this game is supposed to be balanced such that the different weight classes are approximately equal. Assaults are not supposed to be an automatic win against Mediums, which they are. Heavies are not supposed to be an automatic win against Mediums, which many of them are. Mathematically speaking, almost any engagement a Medium mech makes will end up being face to face within a couple of seconds, at which point he will be outarmored and outgunned and lose. The only exception is with Lights, who present a more balanced opponent. Give me a couple good shots at a Jenner and I can core it or leg it with my weapons, but he can JJ over my head and turn to fire at my back, so they're relatively even given similarly skilled pilots.

You also failed to address the tonnage limit issue. It's coming whether you like it or not. Under that system we won't have teams with 8 or 9 Assaults anymore, and probably won't see many teams with 6+ Light wolfpacks wreaking havok. What we will see is a lot of middle weight mechs due to the min/max limits needing a team somewhere in between. With players like you that think that Assaults should just flat out win against almost anything lighter than them (except for the Light that can do 120+kph within 25m of them, which is the speed and distance needed to get behind an Assault) you're essentially telling half the team to take inferior mechs so that the few Assault players in the match can just two shot core them. That's frankly just stupid.

[Sandpit]

Doctor Proctor, on 12 December 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

With players like you that think that Assaults should just flat out win against almost anything lighter than them

this is why i just disregard 90% of what you say. please, show me anywhere i've stated this.

with players like you that think every other mech in the game should be able to take down an assault mech with ease.

see how that works?

[Phromethius]

its actually an inference based on your opinions presented. Both of you are doing so in great extent. Saying assaults are fine in this particular thread can be extrapolated into INFERRING that Assaults should be a counter to every other mech. Its a far stretch but it is there.

In the same breath the inference about mediums is also a far stretch. Mediums are not a hard counter to Assaults. There is a difference in expected pilot skill level that is missing from this discussion. Sometimes, MYSELF included, we forget that there are people on the other side of those pixels. And sometimes they might just be better than me, and sometimes it might just be a flaw in the mechanics of the game, overlooked by the development team.

There is no need to start semantic fights or pick fights when nothing is there but personal experience.

[Sandpit]

Phromethius, on 12 December 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

And sometimes they might just be better than me, and sometimes it might just be a flaw in the mechanics of the game, overlooked by the development team.

exactamundo

[Doctor Proctor]

Sandpit, on 12 December 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

this is why i just disregard 90% of what you say. please, show me anywhere i've stated this.

with players like you that think every other mech in the game should be able to take down an assault mech with ease.

see how that works?

I never said that a Medium should take down an Assault with ease. I said that to do so would require maneuvering behind it using superior agility and pilot skill, but that they should have a chance. You said: "A hunchback going toe to toe with my stalker head-on is asking to get destroyed early on". So yes, you are heavily implying that a Medium should flat out not have a chance against an Assault in a relatively even (ie- similar piloting skill, no massive screw ups on either side) fight. I'm not saying 50-50, but even 25-75 would be much better odds than we have now.

Since Assaults and Heavies are relatively close in terms of speed and agility, with the few exceptions being Heavies that move like Mediums, the superior firepower and armor of the Assault mech should win out over the Heavy as well. Basically, if it can handily take care of a Medium, it should be able to take on a Heavy just fine as well, while suffering a bit more damage.

So by saying that Assaults are fine as is now, and that they SHOULD expect to easily win against a Medium, you are in effect saying that they should be able to defeat most non-Light mechs easily.

Edit: Also, still no math on your part.

Edited by Doctor Proctor, 12 December 2013 - 01:53 PM.

[CDLord HHGD]

I disagree here. Until they give me a neural brain interface that lets me control the movement of my hand, arms, and legs like a real body (as indicated in countless lore and novel references), I don't think mechs are agile enough....

I may thing they are too fast, but that's a decent counter to the aim skill versus skill roll in TT.....

[Doctor Proctor]

Phromethius, on 12 December 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

its actually an inference based on your opinions presented. Both of you are doing so in great extent. Saying assaults are fine in this particular thread can be extrapolated into INFERRING that Assaults should be a counter to every other mech. Its a far stretch but it is there.

In the same breath the inference about mediums is also a far stretch. Mediums are not a hard counter to Assaults. There is a difference in expected pilot skill level that is missing from this discussion. Sometimes, MYSELF included, we forget that there are people on the other side of those pixels. And sometimes they might just be better than me, and sometimes it might just be a flaw in the mechanics of the game, overlooked by the development team.

There is no need to start semantic fights or pick fights when nothing is there but personal experience.

I never said that Mediums are a hard counter to Assaults and that they should eat them for breakfast. What I said is that is that if I'm facing the front of an Assault, I'm dead meat in a Medium because they can ******* away long before I significantly hurt them due to the firepower/armor difference. Therefore, the only chance in a 1v1 fight is for a Medium to get behind an Assault and hit them in the back. With the massive agility of Assault mechs as currently implemented though, it's hard to even get behind one, let alone stay out of their cone of fire for more than a couple of seconds.

If Mediums had the speed/agility to get behind an Assault mech then they're a credible threat, just like Lights are currently. Since they can't though, you've basically lost the fight before it even started, which goes against the whole "every weight class is valid" idea.

[Sable Dove]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

And the argument presented is wrong. I am a "Big Guy" (6'2" 270) I can and do surprise the {Scrap} out of lil guys with my reflex speed.

Okay, now throw on about 200 pounds of weights on your arms and torsos and try again. A human body is primarily structure and muscle. If an Atlas were to be as mobile as it is now, it would have to have about 70 tons of internal structure (ignoring for the moment that its current internal structure is so light that the mech should barely be able to stand under its own weight).

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

Have you tried this? Seriously Jobe? Have you hopped in a Atlas and tried to do what you are claiming CAN be done? I ran a D-DC for Months, an any half way decent Light Pilot could stay out of my cross hairs while I'm sporting a 350 XL engine! The only way I could tag one is if I made an effort to anticipate his next move and opened up with a alpha full of Ballistics, Lasers an SRMs. I personally never see the likes of you in game anymore St, so I will conclude you are in a higher Elo than I. Maybe, just maybe the guys(and gals) you are dropping against are just better shots than me, have a better rig(computer) than you, or ar luckier than you.

Uh, yeah, it's really easy to do. I run an Atlas with STD300 and I have no trouble keeping lights in front of me most of the time. They may slip out of my sight for half a second as I rotate the opposite direction, but the last time I had any sort of trouble with lights was when it was 3-on-1 on River City night, and at least one of them had ECM. And even then, I managed to kill one, and leg another. When a single light should be able to take out an assault by out-maneuvering it, but it takes three of them (at the same time) to do it, with heavy losses, that's not right.

If I used large lasers in the arms instead of mediums, or SSRMs instead of SRMs, I would have stood a good chance of killing all three.

[Sandpit]

Doctor Proctor, on 12 December 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

I never said that a Medium should take down an Assault with ease.

And I never said an Assault should take down other mechs with ease.

As a matter of fact I said just the opposite. Lights can take down assaults with ease 1v1

I can see where you might mistake that for the exact opposite of what I said though

I don't need to post math. All the math has been posted. Your opinion on the math is no more valid than my opinion on the math

[Khobai]

Quote

And I never said an Assault should take down other mechs with ease.

Assaults should be able to take down other mechs with ease. But they should also be bad at every other role. The problem is we dont have any roles besides combat...

[Adiuvo]

Sandpit, on 12 December 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

As a matter of fact I said just the opposite. Lights can take down assaults with ease 1v1

You play against some absolutely terrible assault pilots.

[Sandpit]

Adiuvo, on 12 December 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

You play against some absolutely terrible assault pilots.

ok

[Joseph Mallan]

Sable Dove, on 12 December 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

Okay, now throw on about 200 pounds of weights on your arms and torsos and try again. A human body is primarily structure and muscle. If an Atlas were to be as mobile as it is now, it would have to have about 70 tons of internal structure (ignoring for the moment that its current internal structure is so light that the mech should barely be able to stand under its own weight).

Tack on 2/3 my body weight you say? Like how yo are just throwing around silliness to try to make your point.

The Gyro and NeuroHelmet in the Fluff is supposed to allow a Mech to react with the pilots reflexes and sense of balance... So a person with good reflexes would be able to get more out of his ride than an armchair warrior. Since I have no issue getting circle shanked by lights back of the Need to Nerf pedals. If it were as big a problem as some are making it, I'd have no problem smacking around lights. That's not the case, so to me the point is Moot.

Quote

Uh, yeah, it's really easy to do. I run an Atlas with STD300 and I have no trouble keeping lights in front of me most of the time. They may slip out of my sight for half a second as I rotate the opposite direction, but the last time I had any sort of trouble with lights was when it was 3-on-1 on River City night, and at least one of them had ECM. And even then, I managed to kill one, and leg another. When a single light should be able to take out an assault by out-maneuvering it, but it takes three of them (at the same time) to do it, with heavy losses, that's not right.

Vids or you are lying.

Quote

If I used large lasers in the arms instead of mediums, or SSRMs instead of SRMs, I would have stood a good chance of killing all three.

If you can do this you are a better pilot than you think you are. I use Larges on my (F)Atlas arms and still can't keep up.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 December 2013 - 09:08 AM.

[Bagheera]

1. An across the board reduction in agility just puts us right where we are now, but with slower gameplay. Fail to see how reducing agility across the board solves anything.

2. Mediums don't need another ******* nerf. Stop it. Seriously, just stop it.

[stjobe]

Bagheera, on 13 December 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

1. An across the board reduction in agility just puts us right where we are now, but with slower gameplay. Fail to see how reducing agility across the board solves anything.

2. Mediums don't need another ******* nerf. Stop it. Seriously, just stop it.

1. It's agility (turning/torso speed) vs speed; if turning/torso speed was reduced, the speed of a light might be enough to make it able to stay behind an assault (which is currently if not impossible at least rather hard).

2. Nobody wants to nerf mediums.

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 13 December 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

1. It's agility (turning/torso speed) vs speed; if turning/torso speed was reduced, the speed of a light might be enough to make it able to stay behind an assault (which is currently if not impossible at least rather hard).

2. Nobody wants to nerf mediums.

Maybe the issue is more about me not having my rear mounted weapons there was some pity taken. I'd have far less grumbling if I had my rear mounted weapons... or flip arms!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 December 2013 - 09:24 AM.

[Bagheera]

stjobe, on 13 December 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

1. It's agility (turning/torso speed) vs speed; if turning/torso speed was reduced, the speed of a light might be enough to make it able to stay behind an assault (which is currently if not impossible at least rather hard).

Across the board is not necessary. Reducing those attributes for mediums is woefully unnecessary and probably the opposite of what is needed.

stjobe, on 13 December 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

2. Nobody wants to nerf mediums.

Mr. OP does, even if he doesn't realize it. His suggestion is a medium nerf for the sake of trying to (mostly unnecessarily) save lights from assaults.

[Fut]

Bagheera, on 13 December 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

Across the board is not necessary. Reducing those attributes for mediums is woefully unnecessary and probably the opposite of what is needed.

Agreed. Those attributes (Turning/Torso speed) should be reduced on Assaults and Heavies. It's kind of ridiculous that they can keep up fairly evenly with the mediums in that regard. It really reduces the effectiveness of the extra speed (movement speed) that the mediums have over the heavier chassis - and some of the heavies are just as fast as mediums to boot.

The system could definitely use some fine tuning.