625 replies to this topic

[990Dreams]

RavensScar, on 10 December 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

I don't understand why people are so wedded to the tabletop numbers for Clan weapons.

I don't understand why people are wedded to tabletop at all. You rolled a dye to decide where you hit.. I mean, it is a good base but really. Why not have a RNG give us more damage? Or a RNG decide where we hit? And once again,

DavidHurricane, on 10 December 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

The point of clan tech:
To be a more expensive to buy, harder to earn/capture (CW), better alternative to IS tech. Deviate from this and you have deviated from BattleTech's goal and more than 6 games before this one (let's be honest here folks, this is what they intended with the clans [and if it wasn't then they should have thought of the repercussions of even adding them at all]) (yes I know that they have deviated a lot but who wants to take it further and start nerfing clan tech?). The rarity/hard-to-make(ness) of the tech already compensates for the op(ness) of it.

Edited by DavidHurricane, 10 December 2013 - 12:20 PM.

[CyclonerM]

RavensScar, on 10 December 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

Jump Jets

Pardon, where have you read that the Timberwolf Prime has Jump Jets?

[BLOOD WOLF]

You guys do realize that there is little differnce between clan and innersphere tech. Sure clan is stronger but it really isnt that much stronger. I just looked at a weapon baliisitc and energy comparison and the differnce is little.Did anybody actually look at the stats?

[NocturnalBeast]

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 December 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

You guys do realize that there is little differnce between clan and innersphere tech. Sure clan is stronger but it really isnt that much stronger. I just looked at a weapon baliisitc and energy comparison and the differnce is little.Did anybody actually look at the stats?

I am assuming that you are comparing clan tech to (recovered) Star League tech?

[BLOOD WOLF]

Ed Steele, on 10 December 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

I am assuming that you are comparing clan tech to (recovered) Star League tech?

nice but no. im also gonna need some statistics on how far the star leage was able to enhance the tech. The comparisons i took are found in Saria.net, which are the same statistics found in actually game. it took a while for me to compare each ingame weapon with that of the site and im not sure what is the actual ratings. However if that is the case then clans weapons are not all that stronger

[BLOOD WOLF]

I am just seeing far too many speculations and not enough statistics but i like how you mentioned the star league and with that being said it adds yet another variabe but the star league recovering of lost tech was in the 3060's i believe and in game its the start of the clan invasions.

[Azeem447]

People will find ways to make one shot kill mechs whether there inner sphere or clan mechs. Clan tech in the table top game was more expensive but also a lot more powerfull. I enjoy tinkering with all my mechs finding new FUN builds. none of these builds are competitive so I always get my tail pipe handed to me but I have FUN. with the clan mechs people will have a much easier time walking over their opponits but so what? They already do this with AC 40 jaguers and AC 20 2 ppc Highlanders. plenty of people will still enjoy their inner sphere mechs, (like my orions) but might adapt them with clan tech. Don't nerf clan tech. sit down, shut up, and enjoy Mech Warriors. but that is just my opinion.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Azeem447, on 10 December 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

People will find ways to make one shot kill mechs whether there inner sphere or clan mechs. Clan tech in the table top game was more expensive but also a lot more powerfull. I enjoy tinkering with all my mechs finding new FUN builds. none of these builds are competitive so I always get my tail pipe handed to me but I have FUN. with the clan mechs people will have a much easier time walking over their opponits but so what? They already do this with AC 40 jaguers and AC 20 2 ppc Highlanders. plenty of people will still enjoy their inner sphere mechs, (like my orions) but might adapt them with clan tech. Don't nerf clan tech. sit down, shut up, and enjoy Mech Warriors. but that is just my opinion.

I Whole heartingly agree.

[Steven Dixon]

I wanted clan mechs to be their normal superpowered selves and the IS to have more players on their side (I was planning on playing mostly IS with some Clan). I wanted this for lore reasons but also as a bit of a challenge. But I can understand why this might sound more fun than it actually is.

I sort of see it like repair and rearm. It is something that I enjoyed for immersion and I like getting big paydays when I did good, but I can actually understand that it causes problems for other players, mostly that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. So I fully understand and accept the change.

[VanillaG]

Woska, on 10 December 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

Clan tech is better, but it's not that much better. Clan mechs have a tendency to being fast and lightly armoured for their weight.

That is incorrect as almost all Clan omnimechs mount more than 90% of the allowable armor. They almost all mount an XL engine which can survive one side torso being destroyed and both ES and FF armor which are half the crits of the IS versions. Overall clan omnimechs tend to punch one class heavier than their weight(i.e Clan medium omni is equivalent to IS Heavy).

[BLOOD WOLF]

i can begin to see that it is not the technology of the weapons that OP but the Clan mechs themselves that are in the own right very powerful

[Graywar]

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 December 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

You guys do realize that there is little differnce between clan and innersphere tech. Sure clan is stronger but it really isnt that much stronger. I just looked at a weapon baliisitc and energy comparison and the differnce is little.Did anybody actually look at the stats?

Are you serious? Did YOU actually look at the stats?

Dude, look up the Clan ER Medium Laser. It has the same range as an IS Large Laser and does almost as much damage (7 damage, while the IS Large does 8), but produces much less heat und weights only a single ton! How is that not overpowered? Also look at the Clan ER PPC, it does 15 damage and needs 2 critical slots, the IS version does 10 damage and needs 3 critical slots. The Clan UAC/20 weigts 12 tons, that's an IS AC/10. Clan XL engines also take only 2 critical slots in each side torso, which means you need to destroy BOTH side torsi to destroy the engine.

I could go on forever.

Clantech HAS to be nerfed if they want to add it to this game, there's just no way around that. It is so powerful that it would make IS tech completely useless.

[Guido]

I have no idea how you're doing your comparison Blood Wolf, but lets talk about the comparisons you're looking at on Sarna. In the Sarna, here are some example comparisons read under the product information and technical specifications.

LRM 20 : Clan LRM has no minimum range, weighs 5 tons instead of 10, and takes up 4 crit slots instead of 5. Same damage, same max range, same ammo load, same heat.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LRM-20

ER Medium Laser: Clan has 2 more damage and additional range. Same heat, same weight, same critical space.
http://www.sarna.net...ER_Medium_Laser

Gauss: clan weighs 3 tons less and takes 6 crits instead of 7. Same damage, same range, same heat.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gauss_Rifle

Clans don't use AC20s, they use UAC20s, which isn't IS tech until 3060, so lets compare.

AC20 vs CUAC20 : Clan doubles the fire rate, increase the range, 12 shots per ton instead of 5, weighs 12 tons instead of 14, and uses 8 crit slots instead of 10. Same damage, same heat per shot.
http://www.sarna.net...i/Autocannon/20
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ultra_AC/20

Those are just examples of the weapons, from tabletop read by sarna. Those don't compare well, Bloodwolf.

And for whoever is championing the "costs and rarity" route, you are advocating a far more destructive path than mixed tech proponents and balance would. All that cost and rarity route will do is further increase the equipment gap between new players and veteran players, effectively killing the game's growth that much more.

Sure, we could say that the hardcore purists would be driven away by lack of adherence to tabletop stats, but lets be honest, PGI has already shown that they don't care about chafing against that stripper pole. Mixed tech might do the same, but then the purists really have no one to blame, considering mixed tech does exist, at the expensive of being deeply costly and the one campaign induced historical Mechwarrior game that has you playing IS during the 3051, MW2: Mercenaries, has you running with mixed tech. The point is that pure implementation in both stats and costs while keeping the clan mechs and tech separate from IS would instantly spell doom for this game as it is right now. If this scenario were implemented, they'd have to have the tabletop battlevalue system in place to equalize, and it'd be impossible to find a match with real balance.

Edited by Guido, 10 December 2013 - 01:51 PM.

[elsie]

If you really want to find out how well your non-nerf balance ideas will fly, grab the quick start rules, some record sheets and dice and try some asymmetrical and/or zellbringen matches. Throw out most of the heat rules and just see how well MWO IS builds do against stock clan builds. I've already gone through it 25ish years ago. It's not pretty for the IS.

And if you say "But it's not supposed to be!" then you'll probably end up the same way as the players back then; no IS opponents to be had. 95 out of 100 games they played clan vs clan. Creating and testing a scenario to be point of being balanced took a lot of work and time and most weren't ever successfully created.

I'm starting to wish for a "clans do not exist; just us IS succession warriors here" queue...


elsie

[Gremlich Johns]

Could "will bring a different flavour" be any more ambiguous? Will it be same damage energy and ballistic weapons and colours when they fire? Probably.

I've said this before, even though I prefer the Clans as a story line, I could care less about the tech. I'd rather PGI just revert the timeline to when there was just the Wolf's Dragoons to worry about - like 3025.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Guido, on 10 December 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

I have no idea how you're doing your comparison Blood Wolf, but lets talk about the comparisons you're looking at on Sarna. In the Sarna, here are some example comparisons read under the product information and technical specifications.

LRM 20 : Clan LRM has no minimum range, weighs 5 tons instead of 10, and takes up 4 crit slots instead of 5. Same damage, same max range, same ammo load, same heat.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LRM-20

ER Medium Laser: Clan has 2 more damage and additional range. Same heat, same weight, same critical space.
http://www.sarna.net...ER_Medium_Laser

Gauss: clan weighs 3 tons less and takes 6 crits instead of 7. Same damage, same range, same heat.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gauss_Rifle

Clans don't use AC20s, they use UAC20s, which isn't IS tech until 3060, so lets compare.

AC20 vs CUAC20 : Clan doubles the fire rate, increase the range, 12 shots per ton instead of 5, weighs 12 tons instead of 14, and uses 8 crit slots instead of 10. Same damage, same heat per shot.
http://www.sarna.net...i/Autocannon/20
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ultra_AC/20

Those are just examples of the weapons, from tabletop read by sarna. Those don't compare well, Bloodwolf.

And for whoever is championing the "costs and rarity" route, you are advocating a far more destructive path than mixed tech proponents and balance would. All that cost and rarity route will do is further increase the equipment gap between new players and veteran players, effectively killing the game's growth that much more.

Sure, we could say that the hardcore purists would be driven away by lack of adherence to tabletop stats, but lets be honest, PGI has already shown that they don't care about chafing against that stripper pole. Mixed tech might do the same, but then the purists really have no one to blame, considering mixed tech does exist, at the expensive of being deeply costly and the one campaign induced historical Mechwarrior game that has you playing IS during the 3051, MW2: Mercenaries, has you running with mixed tech. The point is that pure implementation in both stats and costs while keeping the clan mechs and tech separate from IS would instantly spell doom for this game as it is right now. If this scenario were implemented, they'd have to have the tabletop battlevalue system in place to equalize, and it'd be impossible to find a match with real balance.

You said it right there pal

1.
LRM 20 : Clan LRM has no minimum range, weighs 5 tons instead of 10, and takes up 4 crit slots instead of 5. Same damage, same max range, same ammo load, same heat.? how would clan vs innersphere in a game change between people who already are LRM boats? 4 critical slots would still limit + how many missle slots the mech has. I really dont see how this is gonna make a difference between what people do now(missle crazy and clan missle crazy)

2.AC20 vs CUAC20 : Clan doubles the fire rate, increase the range, 12 shots per ton instead of 5, weighs 12 tons instead of 14, and uses 8 crit slots instead of 10. Same damage, same heat per shot. that isnt a game changer, use ur noggin. the rate of fire is the only thing that gives it an ege.

Gauss: clan weighs 3 tons less and takes 6 crits instead of 7. Same damage, same range, same heat. Same with the Guass, NOT A GAME CHANGER and it really isnt much of an advantage

[BLOOD WOLF]

I would love for someone to point me to a differnce references that i could do comparisons. Side by side most preferable. I need some Real big differences for me to be convinced othewise. not 8 slots vs 10 slots. not very small diffeernces that have little to no impact. Im gonna need something more than 3 tons less.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 10 December 2013 - 02:34 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

I need

elsie, on 10 December 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

If you really want to find out how well your non-nerf balance ideas will fly, grab the quick start rules, some record sheets and dice and try some asymmetrical and/or zellbringen matches. Throw out most of the heat rules and just see how well MWO IS builds do against stock clan builds. I've already gone through it 25ish years ago. It's not pretty for the IS.

And if you say "But it's not supposed to be!" then you'll probably end up the same way as the players back then; no IS opponents to be had. 95 out of 100 games they played clan vs clan. Creating and testing a scenario to be point of being balanced took a lot of work and time and most weren't ever successfully created.

I'm starting to wish for a "clans do not exist; just us IS succession warriors here" queue...


elsie

i dont know what you are talking about

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 10 December 2013 - 02:38 PM.

[ssm]

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 December 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

I would love for someone to point me to a differnce references that i could do comparisons. Side by side most preferable. I need some Real big differences for me to be convinced othewise. not 8 slots vs 10 slots. not very small diffeernces that have little to no impact. Im gonna need something more than 3 tons less.

You're kidding?

Quote

AC20 vs CUAC20 : Clan doubles the fire rate, increase the range, 12 shots per ton instead of 5, weighs 12 tons instead of 14, and uses 8 crit slots instead of 10. Same damage, same heat per shot. that isnt a game changer, use ur noggin. the rate of fire is the only thing that gives it an ege.

Every single thing above gives an substantial edge.

Edited by ssm, 10 December 2013 - 02:47 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

ssm, on 10 December 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

You're kidding?

kidding about what.

I asked for sources, and more data, if it could be provided. and all you have to say is You're kidding?
I

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 10 December 2013 - 02:49 PM.