625 replies to this topic

[BLOOD WOLF]

u can apply that to the IS Jager then we are right back were we started

[Guido]

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 December 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

u can apply that to the IS Jager then we are right back were we started

No, we're in the same spot as 5 minutes ago, with slightly more heat per alpha+double tap and less ammo.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Guido, on 10 December 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

No, we're in the same spot as 5 minutes ago, with slightly more heat per alpha+double tap and less ammo.

You sir i give kudos

[elsie]

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 December 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

Use the tablet top. nice suggestion there buddy but i cant roll a dice in MWO. the only thing in common is factorabilty of events happening but thats as far as it goes.

Clan vs innersphere, well no one has shown me critcal differnces. tonnage, critical slots, heat. Im not looking in differnces of 2 but i cant ignore the fact. however there not game breaking. Just becuase something is better doesnt mean it cant be beaten

I did say approximate. It doesn't take that much thought to work out how it might translate.

But if you're that much against using dice for approximation, then use your weapon stats from your profile.

You keep asking people to show you. Maybe you should look for yourself. Use a clan mech from Sarna or the current TT and compare the amount of weapons, damage output, and everything else.


elsie

[GalaxyBluestar]

Blacksoul1987, on 10 December 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

I'm not sure why you guys are all trying to balance with drop numbers and tonnage if clan tech comes out as powerful as lore it will just be clan vs clan so you don't need 8v12 or anything like that. There won't be enough IS players left to really justify doing drops like that.

and when clans turn out to be innersphere 2.0 and just the simmillar stuff that we already have, pgi can kiss their last cashcow goodbye as i've already got the MWO experience mechs. if clans are relitively no different to what we have now then why would you buy into them? for the look of a timberwolf!? yeah that will keep the game afloat.

i could easily say we don't need to concern ourselves with tonnage and drop numbers because their won't be enough clan players to fill the ques. both your statement and mine are pure speculation. that's why it's best to make ideas and suggestions now instead of this OMG dual Ultra ac20 mech irrational jump to conclusions. do you guys really think 6-8 puggies would be able to beat 12 puggies on those weapons alone!? the paper armour and focus fire mentailty would cripple half those mechs before getting into range. again of course both scenarios ascribed to the hunchback IIC's are just speculation as we've no idea how PGI are implementing clans into the game.

[BLOOD WOLF]

elsie, on 10 December 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

I did say approximate. It doesn't take that much thought to work out how it might translate.

But if you're that much against using dice for approximation, then use your weapon stats from your profile.

You keep asking people to show you. Maybe you should look for yourself. Use a clan mech from Sarna or the current TT and compare the amount of weapons, damage output, and everything else.


elsie

#1 i did compare, i did look and i did line the weapons that had an equal counterpart.
i want people to Show me i repeat show me some hard numbers besided Sarna(I said sarna and i used it becuase their numbers match up with the numbers in the Game) how can i be more clear. check for yourself. go through each one and determine with your own eyes

[BLOOD WOLF]

And for the last time, Dice add to many variables. too many outcomes. they cant be compared with real time

[GalaxyBluestar]

Karl Streiger, on 10 December 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

See - I hate Clan to the core. Reason I will not use Clan Tech - even when it means I'm the last one playing a IS Mech.

They can make a Clan ER-PPC be as worse as the current IS ER-PPC and still clan tech will be more advantage.
Look at the current "high" ELO Players - they don't give a damn about immersion or lore - when they get there hands on a Executioner / Summoner- they will simple poptart with UAC 20 and 2 ER-PPCs -> more range and better heat dissipation (not to forget about the Clan -XL)

then maybe PGI should hit their wallets hard for such behavior like say --- Zellbriggen the gameplay that kills your wallet if you don't comply to the targgetting/tag rules?

and BTW i think you're looking for this thread ---> NERF JJ'S

general mechanics and core game design is throwing things out of balance. not clans, they'll just highlight the same old problems.

DavidHurricane, on 10 December 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

The point of clan tech:
To be a more expensive to buy, harder to earn/capture (CW), better alternative to IS tech. Deviate from this and you have deviated from BattleTech's goal and more than 6 games before this one (let's be honest here folks, this is what they intended with the clans [and if it wasn't then they should have thought of the repercussions of even adding them at all]) (yes I know that they have deviated a lot but who wants to take it further and start nerfing clan tech?). The rarity/hard-to-make(ness) of the tech already compensates for the op(ness) of it.

well saddly this game has no "rarety" factor, our salvage earnings are in cbills only, we don't even take equipment off defeated opponants so MWO has no means to cater for harder to earn capture. correct me if i'm wrong but it sounds like you want IS players to capture clan mechs and tech and then drop with IS troops in clan tech to fight against clans? mixed drops... MM can't even handle weight limits and elo you would HAVE to bring in BV's if you went into that ball park. another place PGI will never go.

Graywar, on 10 December 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

Are you serious? Did YOU actually look at the stats?

Dude, look up the Clan ER Medium Laser. It has the same range as an IS Large Laser and does almost as much damage (7 damage, while the IS Large does 8), but produces much less heat und weights only a single ton! How is that not overpowered? Also look at the Clan ER PPC, it does 15 damage and needs 2 critical slots, the IS version does 10 damage and needs 3 critical slots. The Clan UAC/20 weigts 12 tons, that's an IS AC/10. Clan XL engines also take only 2 critical slots in each side torso, which means you need to destroy BOTH side torsi to destroy the engine.

I could go on forever.

Clantech HAS to be nerfed if they want to add it to this game, there's just no way around that. It is so powerful that it would make IS tech completely useless.

remmeber the translation into PGI's game, min and max ranges and the fall off damage calculations, it could turn out that clan lasers all suffer 50% imediate damage output drop after exceding 1 meter outside the viable range making clan lasers a twice as worse Dot laser as IS... along with twice as long beam duration and cooldown. also add ghost heat which will no doubt be fresh clan only punishments. the OPness won't be there at all by the end of PGI's tampering, infact IS LL's will no doubt be better at the end of it.


NOTE FOR EVERYONE:

stop talking about this as though MWO is a perfect translation of BT or even previous MW games. it isn't. all these statistics don't match up to what MWO actually is. was BAP ECCM? was ECM the gaurdian and angel in one? was LL only 8 damage or 9... kinda lost track in all the develpoement excitement. clan values and mechanics will be even more stuffed up so there's no point refering to sarna, this game bares little relation to what sarna has unless they've updated that JJ's hardly get mechs over buildings and firing too many of some particular weapons incurs more heat etc.

you are no longer dealing with original clan values vs original IS values, they're a totally mute point. it would be nice to have the original values and use all the other parts of the game's system to punish clan players in exchange for that superiority like their numbers and earnings and pilot trees etc. i could start a thread how to revamp the whole thing. the IS values the clan values and how IS players retain their freedom and how clan players have to obey clan lore or be punished so hard that R+R would be a walk in the park dispelling all the worry of "they'll be no IS players OMG" people.

but PGI aren't interested, they've always chosen the easy way out and that's whats going to be done to have clans vs IS. so stop worrying every mech cried OP cheese has been axed. clans are next.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 10 December 2013 - 06:37 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 December 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

And for the last time, Dice add to many variables. too many outcomes. they cant be compared with real time

thats true

Long tom anyone?

[Mr Blonde]

Clan tech should be restricted to Clan factions, and if you switch factions you lose all equipment you got while in the faction. Zellbrigen restrictions would be nice, but probably impossible (I'm not a programmer so I have no idea). Nerfing the tech makes the whole exercise pointless. But this is the company that wasted tons of time and resources on third person, and lied to the community about it. So, a complete saddening of the Clan experience is entirely expected. Not that it matters since there's no CW anyway, and apparently won't be for a long time (if ever). I will now make my best Charlie Brown/Eeyore face and sigh. They should have set the game in 3047 to start with, then you'd have a couple more years to get the IS right before doing the Clans.

Also where's Arrow IV...oh no, OP OP OP OP!!!!!

[pbiggz]

Mr Blonde, on 10 December 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

Clan tech should be restricted to Clan factions, and if you switch factions you lose all equipment you got while in the faction. Zellbrigen restrictions would be nice, but probably impossible (I'm not a programmer so I have no idea). Nerfing the tech makes the whole exercise pointless. But this is the company that wasted tons of time and resources on third person, and lied to the community about it. So, a complete saddening of the Clan experience is entirely expected. Not that it matters since there's no CW anyway, and apparently won't be for a long time (if ever). I will now make my best Charlie Brown/Eeyore face and sigh. They should have set the game in 3047 to start with, then you'd have a couple more years to get the IS right before doing the Clans.

Also where's Arrow IV...oh no, OP OP OP OP!!!!!

Clans will be nerfed. Get used to it.

3pv is not hard to implement, its a spring and a camera, anyone could do it and it takes about 10 minutes to code it. Less if cryengine had the functionality already (and it probably does).

[BLOOD WOLF]

pbiggz, on 10 December 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

Clans will be nerfed. Get used to it.

3pv is not hard to implement, its a spring and a camera, anyone could do it and it takes about 10 minutes to code it. Less if cryengine had the functionality already (and it probably does).

Brian did say they will have a certain flavor but one can speculate. Stop saying nerfed, your making it sound like the Clan Er lasers will do 1 dmg

[AEgg]

pbiggz, on 10 December 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

Clans will be nerfed. Get used to it.

3pv is not hard to implement, its a spring and a camera, anyone could do it and it takes about 10 minutes to code it. Less if cryengine had the functionality already (and it probably does).

It's true that games can't be balanced by team size.

However, there are two very different ways to balance clan tech.

The first is what everyone expects. Clan weapons are simply no better than IS weapons (i.e. they still weigh less but do less damage for more heat, etc.)

The second is balacing them without making their weapons worse. Clan weapons that are better on paper, but equivalent in the game. Something like a HARSHLY enforced zellbriggen system could work (it would have to be enforced by actual functionality, not rewards. Maybe clan mechs auto shutdown if they fire weapons on a second target before the first is dead, etc.) Similar penalties could be that clan's don't get a HUD (so no crosshair at all) or that maybe clan mech's can't be customized at all, not even weapon/ammo swaps (since many are worried about what a customized clan mech could do). Ghost heat could also work. Maybe firing more than two weapons at a time for a clan mech increases heat by 10, etc.

Basically, it's possible to still have clan weapons/mechs be numerically superior but be balanced against IS tech anyway. To be fair, it would be harder to implement and test, but the results would be better as well.

[LordBraxton]

I want to be on the IS team and use focus fire and light auto cannon suppression to make clan players rage quit

[pbiggz]

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 December 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

Brian did say they will have a certain flavor but one can speculate. Stop saying nerfed, your making it sound like the Clan Er lasers will do 1 dmg

Everyone pretty much understands what "nerf" means in this case. You're the only one who somehow feels threatened by that.

and Aegg,you're on the right track, but in my opinion (as someone with game design experience) there is no real way to enforce zell. There are too many variable for it to make sense, and to my knowledge, the clans abandoned zellbrigen as soon as they realized the inner sphere wasn't gonna play by their rules.

@LordBraxton: if they dont bring clan tech down and level the playing field, the only one who is gonna rage quit is you, when you get hit by 2 clan ER PPCs that do nearly as much damage as IS gauss rifles but weigh less and take up only 2 crit slots.

[Pacifist]

It would really amuse me if the Dev's tried to use zellbrigen to balance the clans. These are the same people who refuse to create tutorials about anything save walking. Who release ghost heat and don't tell anyone about it.

Casual gamers would start ripping the forums apart when a system that they were never told about begins reducing their Honor and Cbills.

[GalaxyBluestar]

AEgg, on 10 December 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

It's true that games can't be balanced by team size.

However, there are two very different ways to balance clan tech.

The first is what everyone expects. Clan weapons are simply no better than IS weapons (i.e. they still weigh less but do less damage for more heat, etc.)

The second is balacing them without making their weapons worse. Clan weapons that are better on paper, but equivalent in the game. Something like a HARSHLY enforced zellbriggen system could work (it would have to be enforced by actual functionality, not rewards. Maybe clan mechs auto shutdown if they fire weapons on a second target before the first is dead, etc.) Similar penalties could be that clan's don't get a HUD (so no crosshair at all) or that maybe clan mech's can't be customized at all, not even weapon/ammo swaps (since many are worried about what a customized clan mech could do). Ghost heat could also work. Maybe firing more than two weapons at a time for a clan mech increases heat by 10, etc.

Basically, it's possible to still have clan weapons/mechs be numerically superior but be balanced against IS tech anyway. To be fair, it would be harder to implement and test, but the results would be better as well.

love the auto shutdown idea, incur over 10 dmg on an mech claimed by another or an untargetted mech and you get a 6 second shutdown penelty.

pbiggz, on 10 December 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

Clans will be nerfed. Get used to it.

it is not us getting used to nerfed clans that's the problem... it's pgi getting used to falling sales as clans will be nothing but aditional fluff no more unique and exciting than phoenix. the phoenix novelty is already going and after clans what will there be? UI 2 and CW? people will have become totally bored and left by then due to lack of game play and functionality progress. the numbers are already under debate something like 1600 average online players according to tolkiens calculations. all because this game is a mediocrity and taking a colour spark such as clan warfare and snuffing it as additional content which is what the nerfs will be is a totally wasted oppotunity to bring excitement back into this dying game.

we don't have to get used to nerfs, PGI has to get used to people playing a slightly different mech, leveling it up and walking away from it just like they do now with IS mechs because that's all the game offers.

DarwinsDisciple, on 10 December 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

It would really amuse me if the Dev's tried to use zellbrigen to balance the clans. These are the same people who refuse to create tutorials about anything save walking. Who release ghost heat and don't tell anyone about it.

Casual gamers would start ripping the forums apart when a system that they were never told about begins reducing their Honor and Cbills.

for "OPness" either play by the rules or suffer the consiquences, games need rules or zerg rush becomes the be all and end all of gameplay. you could get your freedom back just play IS where theres more than enough odds in your favour, more modules, more speedtweaks, more numbers, well that's what i'd do, you'd have every advantage other than the amount of weapons and power the clan mechs could carry, but they'd be in oversized mechs you couldn't possibly miss and their speeds would be relative because they'd recieve no engine upgrades and no pilot trees.

but PGI are too weak to do it.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 10 December 2013 - 09:28 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

pbiggz, on 10 December 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

Everyone pretty much understands what "nerf" means in this case. You're the only one who somehow feels threatened by that.

and Aegg,you're on the right track, but in my opinion (as someone with game design experience) there is no real way to enforce zell. There are too many variable for it to make sense, and to my knowledge, the clans abandoned zellbrigen as soon as they realized the inner sphere wasn't gonna play by their rules.

@LordBraxton: if they dont bring clan tech down and level the playing field, the only one who is gonna rage quit is you, when you get hit by 2 clan ER PPCs that do nearly as much damage as IS gauss rifles but weigh less and take up only 2 crit slots.

"Threatened"-plz, you belittle me for no reason.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 10 December 2013 - 09:47 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

pbiggz, on 10 December 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

Everyone pretty much understands what "nerf" means in this case. You're the only one who somehow feels threatened by that.

and Aegg,you're on the right track, but in my opinion (as someone with game design experience) there is no real way to enforce zell. There are too many variable for it to make sense, and to my knowledge, the clans abandoned zellbrigen as soon as they realized the inner sphere wasn't gonna play by their rules.

@LordBraxton: if they dont bring clan tech down and level the playing field, the only one who is gonna rage quit is you, when you get hit by 2 clan ER PPCs that do nearly as much damage as IS gauss rifles but weigh less and take up only 2 crit slots.

THE HEAT!!!!. ER Clan PPCS generate more hears. so good luck triple mounting them, or double. Please think before u type. Clan weapons generate more heat and we as far i know I cant get away with cont. fire with 3 IS ER ppcs in a thick fight

In truth its the pilot not the tech.

I have a sneaking suspician that the people that are against clan tech are players who spent months working on specific win, win builds. Could be untrue

Also the Guass rifle is a bad example for The IS and clan are really similar

[BLOOD WOLF]

Whoever in here thinks they are running with the builds like in mech warrior 2 are gonna be shutting down so fast