398 replies to this topic

[Heffay]

R Razor, on 13 December 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

those of us that wanted an honest to goodness Battletech simulation are SOL.

I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. A battletech sim is *exactly* what we got.

[Feetwet]

NuclearPanda, on 13 December 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

Exactly.

I kind of agree with you here. I came in day one of open beta. I had so much fun that I lamented the fact that I did not get into the founders program. As the weeks went on I bought some MC...not a large amount but more than I have spent on any other game.

Shortly after that some of the milestones started to slip. At this point I stopped buying MC but I was still playing a TON. When the phoenix package was announced, I was very tempted but decided to see how the summer went. 12 man hit, my cbill accrual slowed and I became a miser with mech purchases.

Turns out that with so many missing features, mech collecting was all that was really driving me and it had stopped. My interest diminished and I began to drop less and less. At release, we were giving an updated roadmap, basics of CW, and indications that the all important UI2 was imminent. Leary of past performance I still kept my wallet shut.

I was still dropping once a week til early November...its just too much for me...the roflstomps, reduced cbills, weapons balance issues, same maps, friends leaving, delayed features and lack of quality communications. So now I am taking a break, checking here once a day, hoping beyond hope for progress. Soon I will leave, to thunderous applauds from the white knights and the go play something else crowd.

The story of a non-returning customer...

S

[Feetwet]

Disclaimer: With all the money I have spent I do fell that I got a ton of enjoyment from this game. I got my moneys worth and more. But, I was willing to spend much more and gladly...this is what PGI has missed out on from me and others like me. There was more to be made...lots more.

S

[giganova]

This does not preclude you from also being a investor. Just sayin'...

[DirePhoenix]

Duppie1974, on 13 December 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

Read this http://mwomercs.com/...eveloper-update and tell us again that we did not buy into a promise. Look at how the Founders packs were pitched. And according to this http://www.gamasutra...hp#.UI6ow0Mj5mp MWO was crowd funded by the sale of Founders packs. That was back when the players like me were the target demographic.

From the developer update you linked, it describes here what a Founder's package bought:

Quote

The value of the Founders Package is that it is a lifetime reward and recognition opportunity. All of the hard currency you get in the product will be yours to spend over the entire lifetime of the product, the Founder’s Tag which will be available on the forums immediately after purchasing your Founder’s Package will mark you uniquely for the entire lifetime of the product. The same can be said for the Founder’s ’Mech’s (playable starting Aug. 7th) -- they will be unique on the battlefield marking you as an original founder of MWO, as well as providing a boost to C-bill earning for the lifetime of the product.

• recognition (badge, unique 'mechs, name in credits for Legendary - check
  
• hard currency (MC) - check
  
• bonus Cbills for the lifetime of the product - check

The "CW within 90 days of open beta" that Ujira referenced is not part of the Founder's package. If you bought a package for anything other than what was in the package, I believe you made that purchase for the wrong reasons.

As for the Gamasutra article, you can find my comment there as well:

Quote

I think the author of this article is using an extremely loose definition of the term "crowdfunding". It is my understanding that MWO was already funded and heading into production with or without their Founder's Program, and it was essentially just a "Pre-Order Bonus" not unlike what many contemporary commercial games use. Purchaser's of MWO's Founder Program get virtual goods in exchange for their money. While Kickstarter and other crowdfunding can also have some item perks, the primary goal is to get funds to start production, not to get bonus items when the game is released.

Kickstarter campaigns and projects like Star Citizen's crowdfunding operation happen because indie projects need funds to START the projects (that's the START in Kickstarter). MWO's Founder Program revenue, while still probably impressive, would not count as "crowdfunding" unless you consider everything you can buy for a game before, after, and during production (such as pre-order bonuses, DLC, and expansion packs) "crowdfunding" as well.

Russ Bullock used the wrong terminology in describing the Founder's Program as a Kickstarter, because that is clearly NOT what a kickstarter is. Eric Caoili in this Gamasutra article is also in error as the Founder's program is not a funder's program. MWO was already funded, at least to the basic level to produce the game. As confirmed by Russ himself, the money received from the Founder's program helped provide better quality options (and probably meant that the team didn't have to subsist only on Top Ramen while making the game), but the existence of the game was not dependent on it. It was the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. If you consider the Founder's program as a crowdfunding operation, you have to also include game preorders and DLC updates as crowdfunding operations as well.

[ValdnadHartagga]

R Razor, on 13 December 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

PGI wants the basement dwellers to spend the money mommy and daddy gives them moving forward, those of us that wanted an honest to goodness Battletech simulation are SOL.

If you want a BattleTech simulator, the door to MegaMek is this way..

It always boggles me how few people understand what a small niche BT/MW occupies. My FLGS has half a shelf and one tiny rack dedicated to BT books and minis, hosts one sparsely-attended BT match a week on a weekday evening (while MTG and 40K games nearly breach capacity), and I consider myself blessed to even have it within driving distance.

This game is made by a small for-profit company and in order to make that money in today's video game market, they need to appear to the broadest range possible. That applies to all the other MechWarrior titles as well. The only way we'll get an honest-to-goodness MechWarrior simulation (since BattleTech is a pretzels-and-beer paper standup game) is for a bunch of independent fan developers get together, acquire the license and focus on their own vision, and for the fans to agree on a singular vision for what a MechWarrior title should be. I guarantee you that even in the scenario I just outined, someone is going to pipe up and say "this is not BattleTech!" You cannot please everyone, especially the hardcore fans, because everyone has their own vision of what something should be.

I'm happy with MWO (not necessarily the management). I paid $60 to become a Founder - that's the price of your average game for any console, and considering inflation that's actually a low price for a game. Since MWO is nominally free, I justified it as the cost of simply buying the game as if it were any other. So far I've invested another $60 in additional MC over the last year and a half, which I only spend on paint and GXP conversions (and two 'Mechs, which were sold later for CB). When you buy Modern Warfare, you do not become an Activision investor or shareholder, you are simply a consumer of the product, not to say that consumers shouldn't also have a voice in how the game is administered. And besides, $60 is just a drop in the bucket compared to how much it costs to develop a game (recall that the Founder's program raised over $5 million CAD). That's like buying a percentage of a single share - not even close to having any kind of say in the company's business. When you give PGI a few thousand dollars, then you can complain about investing.


I know all about dying breeds. IRL, I own an off-road vehicle which, in the greater scheme of off-road culture, is a very small niche (and in the majority of cases it is often seen and used as a soccer mom-mobile). There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of my vehicle on the road since it debuted in 2000. Of those numbers, only a few thousand are actually used for off-roading, and of those few thousand only a percentage are members of a related internet forum. The company designed my vehicle for off-road use, but still markets it to the average consumer who wants to transport a lot of groceries and sports equipment in a safe, tough vehicle. It does not market directly to the off-road community, and in the last few years advertisements have completely disappeared, not to mention rumor is that the line will be cancelled next year. It would be absolutely nuts for the company to advertise for a small niche within a small niche of car consumers when the rest of their lineup is easily marketed to the average driver - they would make next to nothing off the design and production of the vehicle, so they focus on what they can sell easily. PGI is doing the same.

Edited by ValdnadHartagga, 13 December 2013 - 08:17 AM.

[giganova]

I didn't realize PGI are independent. That must make us super-investors...

[Heffay]

giganova, on 13 December 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

Again, there's nothing preventing a customer from being a stakeholder or investor at the same time. We were sold goods and services, yes, but we were also sold features and promises.

Just because the features aren't here yet doesn't mean they won't be. Be patient. They'll get there.

[Ransack]

Heffay, on 13 December 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. A battletech sim is *exactly* what we got.

That's debatable. I'd say we have a Mechwarrior sim, not a Battletech sim. Battletech was about more than just the stompy mechs. This game is all about the stompy mechs and little else.

[giganova]

Heffay, on 13 December 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

Just because the features aren't here yet doesn't mean they won't be. Be patient. They'll get there.

I'll believe it when I see it.

[Nation Uprise]

Ransack, on 13 December 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

That's debatable. I'd say we have a Mechwarrior sim, not a Battletech sim. Battletech was about more than just the stompy mechs. This game is all about the stompy mechs and little else.

Yep. There's only one Battletech sim I've ever come across and its called MechWarrior Living Legends.

[Heffay]

Mechwarrior is just a subset of Battletech, right? Calling MWO a battletech sim is perfectly reasonable and accurate.

[Ransack]

Possibly, but I maintain that the focus here is on the Mechwarrior portion of a larger picture. In saying this I am not attempting be negative. PGI was not able to get the funding to make that other game. They hit their marks by focusing on the Mechwarrior (you) and the Mechs themselves, and there is nothing wrong with that. Battletech itself in my opinion was more about the people, the politics, and the intrigue more-so than the Mechs. To me, It's kinda like saying that the Yankees play the game of gloves.

(not debating the update anymore as it is pointless.)

Edited by Ransack, 13 December 2013 - 08:57 AM.

[Heffay]

Ransack, on 13 December 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

Possibly, but I maintain that the focus here is on the Mechwarrior portion of a larger picture. In saying this I am not attempting be negative. PGI was not able to get the funding to make that other game. They hit their marks by focusing on the Mechwarrior (you) and the Mechs themselves, and there is nothing wrong with that. Battletech itself in my opinion was more about the people, the politics, and the intrigue more-so than the Mechs. To me, It's kinda like saying that the Yankees play the game of gloves.

(not debating the update anymore as it is pointless.)

So CW will make it an official battletech sim? Not just the tactical combat, but strategic decisions as well?

[giganova]

Heffay, on 13 December 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

So CW will make it an official battletech sim? Not just the tactical combat, but strategic decisions as well?

According to this, yes:



In practice, probably not.

[PlzDie]

DirePhoenix, on 13 December 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

From the developer update you linked, it describes here what a Founder's package bought:

• recognition (badge, unique 'mechs, name in credits for Legendary - check
  
• hard currency (MC) - check
  
• bonus Cbills for the lifetime of the product - check

The "CW within 90 days of open beta" that Ujira referenced is not part of the Founder's package. If you bought a package for anything other than what was in the package, I believe you made that purchase for the wrong reasons.





As for the Gamasutra article, you can find my comment there as well:



Russ Bullock used the wrong terminology in describing the Founder's Program as a Kickstarter, because that is clearly NOT what a kickstarter is. Eric Caoili in this Gamasutra article is also in error as the Founder's program is not a funder's program. MWO was already funded, at least to the basic level to produce the game. As confirmed by Russ himself, the money received from the Founder's program helped provide better quality options (and probably meant that the team didn't have to subsist only on Top Ramen while making the game), but the existence of the game was not dependent on it. It was the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. If you consider the Founder's program as a crowdfunding operation, you have to also include game preorders and DLC updates as crowdfunding operations as well.

What ever, I am not here to argue I believed when buying this that we would have CW as promised only to have the goal post moved again and again and then to find out that nothing was done even after launch on CW, I could not care less. I gave up on this game in October. I am still playing though with friends only until another game we are waiting for opens it's doors then we will be gone. And for what ever it is worth anything that comes from or is confirmed by PGI from this game I don't and will ever believe again, they caught me with the Overlord package (Actually my wife she bought the package for me as a gift) but not again. And you will see soon there will be a surge in communication from the defs and shortly after they will reveal another grab deal with promises and what not. Most likely a Clan mech pack or what ever, as soon as sales are done you wont hear from them again, until the next sale. I mean look at the communication we got from them during the Overlord sales, and now nothing. Except a rehash on what was already posted in the beginning of Dec. The worst thing is I am here because of Mechwarrior not PGI, they are going to kill this IP.
Why do you think we don't have a player counter in the UI, I play against or with at least 70% of the same players in every match and sometimes it takes over 5 min to find a match. There is not as many players playing this game as they want to make us believe, the big groups left already. You can keep on defending PGI, I was a white knight once about year ago, I woke up. PGI cannot and will not deliver on time, the goal posts will be moved every time, they have been moved 3 or 4 times already, when will it be enough for you and the rest of the PDF.

Edit: I know paragraphs and what not, I got a bottle of Vodka and peach in me, so the hell with grammar and spelling.

Edited by Duppie1974, 13 December 2013 - 01:10 PM.

[ValdnadHartagga]

Nation Uprise, on 13 December 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

Yep. There's only one Battletech sim I've ever come across and its called MechWarrior Living Legends.

Yep! I sure remember the good ol' days when dismounted MechWarriors ran around with SRMs strapped to their backs and healed themselves.

[elsie]

giganova, on 13 December 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

Again, there's nothing preventing a customer from being a stakeholder or investor at the same time. We were sold goods and services, yes, but we were also sold features and promises.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


elsie

[elsie]

ValdnadHartagga, on 13 December 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

...

This game is made by a small for-profit company and in order to make that money in today's video game market, they need to appear to the broadest range possible. That applies to all the other MechWarrior titles as well. The only way we'll get an honest-to-goodness MechWarrior simulation (since BattleTech is a pretzels-and-beer paper standup game) is for a bunch of independent fan developers get together, acquire the license and focus on their own vision, and for the fans to agree on a singular vision for what a MechWarrior title should be. I guarantee you that even in the scenario I just outined, someone is going to pipe up and say "this is not BattleTech!" You cannot please everyone, especially the hardcore fans, because everyone has their own vision of what something should be.

...

You are correct; BattleTech was a tabletop game. By the same token, MechWarrior is a pen-and-paper RPG along the lines of D&D. So, we don't really have a MechWarrior sim either. I will go as far as this is closer to a MechWarrior sim than a BattleTech sim, but only due to the fact that MechWarrior dealt with an individual character controlled by a player and BattleTech the player could control any number of mechs (I usually saw 1-4).

I've been disappointed with a number of the decisions in design, even from the start. But I decided to jump in anyways and see how it all turned out. For now, I'm still having fun. When that stops, I'll stop spending money.

I would love to have the funds to have a sim made that seems closer to the BT universe than what we currently have but that's unlikely to happen. Maybe someone will decide to do one, but I think the market is to niche and small to support more than one game in this genre (the BT genre, not the larger mecha genre).


elsie

[Nation Uprise]

ValdnadHartagga, on 13 December 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

Yep! I sure remember the good ol' days when dismounted MechWarriors ran around with SRMs strapped to their backs and healed themselves.

So the way they implemented BattleArmor (Elementals) wasn't exactly canon and wasn't to your liking. Doesn't debunk the fact that it is the only game that ever tried to incorporate every type of armored combat from Battletech.