398 replies to this topic

[AvatarofWhat]

dangerzone, on 16 December 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

Gaming design is hard as HELL. It ain't easy.

FALSE. As a game designer I can tell you this. It is easy, it just takes effort and time, something the game design(READ: not programming, not art) department of PGI fails hard at. Game design is not programming, its coming up with a plan. It is redesigning that plan as problems are found. I could in fact start balancing the game right now in under 5 minutes. These guys do not play their own game FFS. How hard was it to fix PPC armageddon? changing a few lines in an xml file. Yet somehow they let it go on for 6 months without any balance changes. How freaking hard is it to design a comprehensive tutorial?! I'm sure you know theres hardly anything to program to make another couple of tutorial modules. I could buy that they are having trouble programming CW, except it hasnt even left the design stage. It was supposed to be in-game over a year ago! Wake up! These guys are taking us for a ride

Programming and art aside we need to actually hold these guys responsible for poor game design, specifically system and content design. Art alone does not make a game. The real bottleneck happens before they even reach the programming stage.

So dont go blowing up on someone else when your not even talking about the right thing.

[SaJeel]

Everything you said above is true except one thing game design isn't easy it takes, it takes as you said effort, it is a challenging task to do right, it is easy to do mediocre/bad gamedesign but true elegant engaging game design isnt easy

[Kyle Wright]

WHERE IS MY LOYALTY BONUS FOR PHOENIX PACK? WHERE IS CW? WHERE IS U.I. 2.0? YOu have gotten more than enough money, now were all the results.

[AvatarofWhat]

SaJeel, on 16 December 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

Everything you said above is true except one thing game design isn't easy it takes, it takes as you said effort, it is a challenging task to do right, it is easy to do mediocre/bad gamedesign but true elegant engaging game design isnt easy

If you define hard as needing to put a lot of work in sure. I can see how you say that.

However I dont. Time and effort, however much, is not difficult to me. Time and effort is exactly what it is. I chose to go into this field because I love game design, if they dont... they are not going to make a good game, they are not going to make anything past a minimum viable product. With enough time and effort you would be surprised at what you could do... Regardless, the real issue here is not whether or not game design in general is "hard" or "easy", its whether or not these guys have put forward an appropriate amount of time and effort, considering they are professionals, for the task they needed to achieve. As evidenced by the examples in my previous post, they have not. Before making "elegant" game design decisions, they need to actually design the features of the game. Community warfare being the most asked for.

Before making an excellent, and elegant tutorial they need to make a tutorial period. I dont think anyone would agree that explaining the features of a game in an interactive way is "hard". Their current information about CW? basically a guild system in any MMO. There is almost no design being done on this game, this is what we need to focus on, not semantics.

Edited by AvatarofWhat, 16 December 2013 - 07:34 PM.

[TSB101]

TL;DR

CW is minimum 9 months away.

Let that sink in.

**** you.

Expect charge backs.

[ZnSeventeen]

Niko Snow, on 09 December 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

As our Front-page news updates are tied to the Announcements sub-forum, a repost was necessary to ensure this Command Chair update appeared on the main-page. This is an issue we hope to address in future web updates, and we apologize for any inconvenience this post may have caused for those who have already read this update.

I like you Niko. You are so helpful.

[MechFrog1]

I can't wait to see where we are on all those core elements of the game by the time the Comstar Tukayyid Pack is announced.

[Stormwolf]

mint frog, on 16 December 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

I can't wait to see where we are on all those core elements of the game by the time the Comstar Tukayyid Pack is announced.

You may have to wait for the Refusal War or Operation Bulldog.....

[Skunk Wolf]

I'm an overwhelmingly negative person. I know this, and I don't feel like changing.

However, I see the Clans being introduced as an exciting experiment in the F2P model.

I'll attempt to articulate it as best I can.

You have a reward system built in, that you can obviously tweak for behavior in combat (Scouting, TAGing, etc).

Why not scale your behavior with the Clan mechs to the extreme? Use it as positive and negative re-enforcement.

Want to use the best tech? Better learn all about the Clans and how to fight as one, or get ejected and lose access (not the mech, that's a ragequitting, but not having those CERLL and CERPPC's would really miff me). That's what you could use loyalty points for ("You do not have enough Loyalty points to equip that tech in this battle Mechwarrior"). Don't take away the funds, use the loyalty points.

Heck, you could use it to rank people in to second line to front line units across all factions. Second line battles would have IS tech one stuff or whatnot. I think it would be really cool to know I'm going into a random battle with guys running T1 tech, ditto for Clan Tech only. ("Your Technology level is too high for this event Mechwarrior").

You could issue challenges with a keybind, they had dueling in the Dark Forces games. Violating that means a massive loyalty point hit for the offender and a mark on their record.

I think they are missing out on balancing these obviously overpowering elements in an original direction.

Kills for Clan Mechs may only count if you only solo it yourself etc.

Still have the random battles, but have a set piece queue with a very narrow set of parameters to move the games "plot" along. There are plenty of examples out there on how to implement this.

The harsh reality is, the majority of the player base may not be able conform to this, it would be too complex. Then again, if it became part of the metagame to adhere.....

Anyway, I see you are still hiring for some positions that are incredibly important to this, please get good people.

[Name140704]

N.O.P.E. going in sig.

[Fabian Wrede]

No new featuer or mech are needed they need to focuse all Manpower on bug fixes and balance, not to mention actueal testing new stuf before release the new spawn points are a disaster fe balance. PGI idestroyin there own game with each patch

[Thumper3]

dangerzone, on 16 December 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

Oh and for those who ***** and moan about why there are only maps and mechs being released and not other content, if you stopped and thought about it from a logical standpoint, you would realize that the people who design mechs and maps are different from those who design UI, dx11 and CW. Last time I checked, Alex Iglesias had an art degree, not a programming degree.

Here's the flaw in that weak excuse.

The art and the programmers are paid out of the same bank. So if programming is so hard, then maybe SOMEONE should have made the decision to hire more programmers and less art people......

If they can't meet these deadlines with the staff they have, then they have 3 choices;

1- Hire more people to meet deadlines
2- Stop giving unrealistic deadlines they can not meet with current staff
3- Make up deadlines with no regard for the realistic achievable level of them and just cross their fingers somehow it will just happen.....

Guess which one PGI is sticking with?

And dude, we are not talking about missing a deadline by a BIT.

We are talking about Bryan standing on a stage in front of hundreds of CUSTOMERS and looking us in the eye and saying "UI2.0 will be out in 4-6 weeks and CW will begin arriving in stages in 6 months...."

That was Sept 28th.........that was 10 weeks ago, and now according to some tweets (because god forbid there is any unified communication protocol, like, say....a forum) UI2.0 is now scheduled for Feb (and will be 'buggy')???? Which means even once it is out, they can't pull their small band of programmers to concentrate on CW, because they are going to STILL be working on UI2.0 live in the field....LMAO

That is 4 months, not 4 weeks. That's a deadline failure of what 300%?? When you are missing deadlines by 3 times the original timeline, you have to SERIOUSLY stop and look at your project management controls. I mean, with that schedule CW will not start coming out until what....middle of 2015?? Seriously, what industry do YOU work in where missing a deadline is no big deal?

Why are so many people making excuses?? I don't care how many employees they have. They are running a BUSINESS, it's their job to manage their products. I mean, I kind of get it, when I bought the Phoenix pack (and the Sabre add on) when they were first offered there were lots of angry people. I also stood up to defend PGI a bit....they had made many mistakes (in game and in PR) but they seemed to acknowledge it and seem open to making changes to learn from those mistakes. I was ok with giving them money to develop what they were promising to develop.......yet here we are, same issues, still.

Seriously, at this point there are only two options; They are knowingly lying because they know NO ONE would be pouring money into this game if they stood up and said CW will be out in 2015 or they are incompetent and unable to understand their own development capabilities. Neither is very attractive, but that's what we're left with.

[Blackstorm]

Sigh.

I see the same arguments are as valid as they were when beta finished.

CW seems like a distant myth akin to the wisdom of Jerome Blake, the clan 'invasion' has totally alienated the two people who still played this game with me because they, like me, are just used up.

I bought phoenix. I played a bit, waiting, hoping for something other than what we call 'the grind'.

Mission after pointless mission unlocking chassis(Over and over and OVER), dealing with idiots and every once in a while truly ENJOYING a game together.

I respect PGI, they've tried to bring this game and IP to..somewhere? But it seems sadly that the current strategy is losing more players than it's gaining. I have watched the vocal minority of doom sayers harp on and on the point where I stopped coming to the forum and just enjoyed the game where I could... That was over a year ago, with my last game being...2 months ago or so.

And now we have the clans. Buy now! (and play later). So it seems to me there MUST be a strategy beyond July next year? SOME form of CW? and if so, WHAT THE **** IS IT!?

PGI, you opened this door, you allowed the hordes in via the forums, the pod casts the "community"(pfft).

I'm sad for you guys, you're losing grip if I'm not mistaken...in fact, in your rush to monetize the game and get turn over you forgot you needed something more than mech battles to get the flavor of the universe.

Because once those clan mechs come in, whats the point of staying with Inner Sphere tech and getting STOMPED when there's nothing to defend? nothing to gain? no investment in your faction? Just target practice for people who want to have the best gear. But know nothing about...Twycross, about Luthien, Tukayid...Huntress.

It's like Community warfare will be an add on or dare I say DLC to the main game, not integral to it, that's not what anyone signed up for I don't think? I know I didn't.

I wanted to team up with my friends, pool our resources buy a dropship or two and deploy to where we could have fun on the HUGE potential offered by the map of the inner sphere...instead we have what...10 maps now? and no real idea what that even means to the overall myth of CW. What happens if we defend the HPG? or "win" on that map? do units employed by X or Y faction gain something for it? and if not Why NOT?!

Balls in your court guys, pick it the **** up and DO SOMETHING.

[Chronojam]

Blackstorm, on 18 December 2013 - 03:28 AM, said:

Sigh.

I see the same arguments are as valid as they were when beta finished.

CW seems like a distant myth akin to the wisdom of Jerome Blake, the clan 'invasion' has totally alienated the two people who still played this game with me because they, like me, are just used up.

I bought phoenix. I played a bit, waiting, hoping for something other than what we call 'the grind'.

Mission after pointless mission unlocking chassis(Over and over and OVER), dealing with idiots and every once in a while truly ENJOYING a game together.

I respect PGI, they've tried to bring this game and IP to..somewhere? But it seems sadly that the current strategy is losing more players than it's gaining. I have watched the vocal minority of doom sayers harp on and on the point where I stopped coming to the forum and just enjoyed the game where I could... That was over a year ago, with my last game being...2 months ago or so.

And now we have the clans. Buy now! (and play later). So it seems to me there MUST be a strategy beyond July next year? SOME form of CW? and if so, WHAT THE **** IS IT!?

PGI, you opened this door, you allowed the hordes in via the forums, the pod casts the "community"(pfft).

I'm sad for you guys, you're losing grip if I'm not mistaken...in fact, in your rush to monetize the game and get turn over you forgot you needed something more than mech battles to get the flavor of the universe.

Because once those clan mechs come in, whats the point of staying with Inner Sphere tech and getting STOMPED when there's nothing to defend? nothing to gain? no investment in your faction? Just target practice for people who want to have the best gear. But know nothing about...Twycross, about Luthien, Tukayid...Huntress.

It's like Community warfare will be an add on or dare I say DLC to the main game, not integral to it, that's not what anyone signed up for I don't think? I know I didn't.

I wanted to team up with my friends, pool our resources buy a dropship or two and deploy to where we could have fun on the HUGE potential offered by the map of the inner sphere...instead we have what...10 maps now? and no real idea what that even means to the overall myth of CW. What happens if we defend the HPG? or "win" on that map? do units employed by X or Y faction gain something for it? and if not Why NOT?!

Balls in your court guys, pick it the **** up and DO SOMETHING.

They've picked it up. They told us how sweet a dunk they can do. Then, they immediately set it on the table and asked who wanted to buy it, autographed. You don't have to buy it of course, you're free to just watch them do a sick-nasty layup really soon, but just in case they're going to wait here a few hours first.

Unfortunately they also know that the owners of the gym are going to kick them out at 5PM, but haven't told anybody just yet.

[merz]

the seemingly-endless torrent of your tears delights me, chronojam. whenever i lose a match on some particularly sour note, whenever it is that i feel down - i can always count on one man more dour by far at any time of day. never stop posting.

Edited by merz, 18 December 2013 - 04:50 PM.

[Chronojam]

I'm totally crying into a bowl of ice cream irl

Buy a Masakari pack it'll definitely break my heart

[merz]

nah, i'm a poor fuccboi, you can attack my poverty. buying up to a loki and then maybe vulture once some kind of additional pack is announced.. don't really play assaults much. mediums to heavies.

[DirePhoenix]

Chronojam, on 18 December 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

I'm totally crying into a bowl of ice cream irl

Buy a Masakari pack it'll definitely break my heart

...if only I didn't hate the Clans with every fiber of my being...

[merz]

clans were a terrible thing in tabletop and a lot of the old greybeards stopped playing at the time of their introduction because the game sort of wasn't fun anymore if you were into playing IS. the way they're being implemented here is kind of hard to tell - following omnimech rules is pretty cool, engine restrictions and all, so we'll see how that plays out once the mechs are on the field. there's the usual buhuhu with the absence of community warfare/metagame but i'm playing in a bunch of community leagues so that takes care of that, and with private matches on the horizon there should be plenty of such activity - thats sort of the way such things were since netmech. there was the concern about the rights to operating the game, but they seem to have secured those for the next 4 years at least. i don't know about you but i can see this experience growing considerably in that time. For now the community-managed leagues are all the CW i need, with rules that are agreed upon between participants like a TT game. moment some douchenozzle stops pulling something, you politely ask them to leave. good luck trying that in the 'bring as many highlander Cs as possible' competitive mindset play.

anyway, good to see chrono/mint frog/wales still around.. i kind of assumed you lot must have taken off for greener pastures by now. by the way, whoever out there seems to stay stuff like 'its terrible mwo got the licence renewed', consider for a moment what microsoft was doing it in the preceding 10 years. nothing. and no-one would touch that **** with the proverbial ten foot pole because, as far as IP's go, its notoriously toxic and regarded as past its prime in many ways. so if you like battletech, this is what you're going to have to live and work with, whatever your beef with pgi, russ, garth, or paul might be.

they're not going anywhere. the licence has been secured for the long haul and the roadmap is here. i'm not buying any $500 golden mechs but if the existence of the sort of thing is giving you a hard time, go on over to that shining beacon of everything that is right in game development - star citizen, a game that technically doesn't exist yet, and check out the $10,000 package that some people bought.

Edited by merz, 18 December 2013 - 05:26 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

Thumper3, on 17 December 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

Here's the flaw in that weak excuse.

The art and the programmers are paid out of the same bank. So if programming is so hard, then maybe SOMEONE should have made the decision to hire more programmers and less art people......

If they can't meet these deadlines with the staff they have, then they have 3 choices;

1- Hire more people to meet deadlines
2- Stop giving unrealistic deadlines they can not meet with current staff
3- Make up deadlines with no regard for the realistic achievable level of them and just cross their fingers somehow it will just happen.....

Guess which one PGI is sticking with?

And dude, we are not talking about missing a deadline by a BIT.

We are talking about Bryan standing on a stage in front of hundreds of CUSTOMERS and looking us in the eye and saying "UI2.0 will be out in 4-6 weeks and CW will begin arriving in stages in 6 months...."

That was Sept 28th.........that was 10 weeks ago, and now according to some tweets (because god forbid there is any unified communication protocol, like, say....a forum) UI2.0 is now scheduled for Feb (and will be 'buggy')???? Which means even once it is out, they can't pull their small band of programmers to concentrate on CW, because they are going to STILL be working on UI2.0 live in the field....LMAO

That is 4 months, not 4 weeks. That's a deadline failure of what 300%?? When you are missing deadlines by 3 times the original timeline, you have to SERIOUSLY stop and look at your project management controls. I mean, with that schedule CW will not start coming out until what....middle of 2015?? Seriously, what industry do YOU work in where missing a deadline is no big deal?

Why are so many people making excuses?? I don't care how many employees they have. They are running a BUSINESS, it's their job to manage their products. I mean, I kind of get it, when I bought the Phoenix pack (and the Sabre add on) when they were first offered there were lots of angry people. I also stood up to defend PGI a bit....they had made many mistakes (in game and in PR) but they seemed to acknowledge it and seem open to making changes to learn from those mistakes. I was ok with giving them money to develop what they were promising to develop.......yet here we are, same issues, still.

Seriously, at this point there are only two options; They are knowingly lying because they know NO ONE would be pouring money into this game if they stood up and said CW will be out in 2015 or they are incompetent and unable to understand their own development capabilities. Neither is very attractive, but that's what we're left with.

Dude, calm down.

According to Russ's latest dev post, UI2.0 will be out in 4-6 weeks and CW will begin arriving in stages in 6 months.