474 replies to this topic

[sneeking]

im still convinced if you want to be effective as a missile specialist you need to embrace it head on ( hedging your bets with secondary systems not only shows lack of commitment but the wasted tonnage undermines missile effectiveness and further diminishes your faith in the missile system )

go hard with it or go home

Edited by sneeking, 09 January 2014 - 02:29 AM.

[Kaijin]

sneeking, on 09 January 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:

im still convinced if you want to be effective as a missile specialist you need to embrace it head on ( hedging your bets with secondary systems not only shows lack of commitment but the wasted tonnage undermines missile effectiveness and further diminishes your faith in the missile system )

go hard with it or go home

I've killed too many LRM-exclusive mechs to subscribe to this doctrine. I use cover to get close, and then I don't need to worry - I can just stand in front of them and blow out their cockpit glass.

That 2xLRM20+A, TAG, & 3ML Cat-C1 I use: A match on Crimson I got 3 kills and 5 assists. I ran out of missiles (rare, because I carry 9 tons), and besides which the fight had moved into heavy cover. The 3 kills I scored with my lasers alone.

[sneeking]

I don't get killed enough to teach me otherwise, you n I need to meet up more often

[sneeking]

far too regular now I find myself wolf packing all pointy end of the stick with four or five xl engine heavys ducking and weaving locking my own targets drinking beer and surviving the match....

and I can't argue with the cbills the cbills dont lie

[Victor Morson]

Kaijin, on 09 January 2014 - 04:26 AM, said:

That 2xLRM20+A, TAG, & 3ML Cat-C1 I use: A match on Crimson I got 3 kills and 5 assists. I ran out of missiles (rare, because I carry 9 tons), and besides which the fight had moved into heavy cover. The 3 kills I scored with my lasers alone.

Honestly, that setup is probably fine for doing damage and getting kills without a question. So it's not the worst by any means.

That said, a fast medium packing proper launchers versus the C1 you just described would result in the C1 being blown completely apart and returning very little damage.

Kaijin, on 09 January 2014 - 04:26 AM, said:

I've killed too many LRM-exclusive mechs to subscribe to this doctrine. I use cover to get close, and then I don't need to worry - I can just stand in front of them and blow out their cockpit glass.

Again, this is why speed is important; to maintain range from the slow units and to swing back into your lines against the fast ones. You shouldn't able to do that against a skirmisher.

[Charons Little Helper]

Victor - your guide is great at teaching people how to be LRM skirmishers. Arguably that's the best way to run LRMs at present.

However - the fact that an LRM skirmisher can consistently defeat a slower LRM boat (stalker etc) does not actually prove that LRM skirmishers are superior.

This is a game of both teams & rock/scissors/paper dynamics.

My jenners could totally shred my LRM skirmishers, since despite my griffon's solid speed of 99ish - the jenner could close fast - and using cover could take relatively little damage. Once within 180m - it would shred my griffon totally unchallenged.

This doesn't actually prove that the jenner is better in every way to the LRM skirmishing griffon. Just the scissors to its paper.

I'm not saying that LRM skirmishers aren't better than LRM boats - I'm just saying that your constant argument to prove it is flawed.

[Victor Morson]

Charons Little Helper, on 09 January 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

However - the fact that an LRM skirmisher can consistently defeat a slower LRM boat (stalker etc) does not actually prove that LRM skirmishers are superior.

This is a game of both teams & rock/scissors/paper dynamics.

It does go a long ways, though, in particular when you consider the weaknesses of the skirmisher are precisely the same as the non-skirmisher.

Charons Little Helper, on 09 January 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

My jenners could totally shred my LRM skirmishers, since despite my griffon's solid speed of 99ish - the jenner could close fast - and using cover could take relatively little damage. Once within 180m - it would shred my griffon totally unchallenged.


This doesn't actually prove that the jenner is better in every way to the LRM skirmishing griffon. Just the scissors to its paper.

But it's also why the fast-moving rule is important; you want to run straight back to your lines if hounded by a Jenner, and you can't do that in a Stalker. While you're right, the light would easily catch up on and overtake your Griffin, your Griffin should be able to get back to people who can swat the light for very little damage.

A heavier mboat will get shredded in the same scenario.

Likewise, the faster skirmisher with jets can jump and "glide" away from the target, while turning to face the target, delivering serious return fire while the distance is closed; the slower heavier 'mech can pretty much just stand & deliver until it's overrun.

Charons Little Helper, on 09 January 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

I'm not saying that LRM skirmishers aren't better than LRM boats - I'm just saying that your constant argument to prove it is flawed.

Except that the same argument as to why a fast properly configured skirmisher can wreck a slower LRM unit is the same as the reason you want the speed above: Being able to fall in and out of the "front line" as needed getting shots, with the maneuverability to do it.

PS: The Griffin is really good at this. I plan to pick one up when they go Cbill, it's the one thing another medium does better than the Shadow Hawk.

[Kjudoon]

sneeking, on 09 January 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:

im still convinced if you want to be effective as a missile specialist you need to embrace it head on ( hedging your bets with secondary systems not only shows lack of commitment but the wasted tonnage undermines missile effectiveness and further diminishes your faith in the missile system )

go hard with it or go home

Too many light pilots LOVE hard core LRMboats because all they do is get inside 180m and you're done. Most times, you don't have the skill, speed or positioning to get help unless you're in a 12 man group with a dedicated wingman which you will never get in the pugs, and is a waste of a whole mech in a 12 man that no unit I've faced so far would even bother to do.

Those 2 tons in MLs are often the only chance you have, and on many occasions, I've used them to kill mauled targets after I've spent the entire match burning through the enemy AMS.

[Victor Morson]

Kjudoon, on 09 January 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

Most times, you don't have the skill, speed or positioning to get help unless you're in a 12 man group with a dedicated wingman which you will never get in the pugs, and is a waste of a whole mech in a 12 man that no unit I've faced so far would even bother to do.

I find if you run back to the nearest pair of Atlas or Highlander, you'll generally have enough pugs around that will blast the {Scrap} out of a light that a lack of teamwork has very rarely been a serious hindrance.

[Dazzer]

could you add

´Thou shall hide behind a hill spamming lrms till. I find you and melt you into a pool of slag for the sin of being a bloody annoying lrm boat ?

[Kjudoon]

Victor Morson, on 09 January 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

I find if you run back to the nearest pair of Atlas or Highlander, you'll generally have enough pugs around that will blast the {Scrap} out of a light that a lack of teamwork has very rarely been a serious hindrance.

Been there, done that, have the tee shirt, died anyway.

even in a 96kph Kintaro running through cover with friendlies less than 500 meters away in plain site. It gets even worse if you have a slower mech, but then again, this is just observed reality from an LRMboat only pilot. What do I know?

Missile only LRMboats with no sub-180 weaponry are the bread and butter for every smart light pilot and brawler who can run halfway decent.

[Kaijin]

Victor Morson, on 09 January 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

Honestly, that setup is probably fine for doing damage and getting kills without a question. So it's not the worst by any means.

That said, a fast medium packing proper launchers versus the C1 you just described would result in the C1 being blown completely apart and returning very little damage.

I very rarely ever get hit with LRMs, so I can't say much to this argument. Certainly a fast medium will be packing LRM5s or a mix of LRM5s and LRM10s, so their RoF would be higher than my C1's, but my damage per volley would be higher. One on one, the skirmisher would likely win vs the C1, being far better at adjusting position rapidly. OTOH, one on one, a Jenner will beat one of your skirmishers, whereas it's not a certainly it'd beat my C1.

Victor Morson, on 09 January 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

Again, this is why speed is important; to maintain range from the slow units and to swing back into your lines against the fast ones. You shouldn't able to do that against a skirmisher.

If they're operating so close to their lines that they can swing back into them before they're Jenner food, they may as well downgrade their engine and throw some more ammo in there, or an energy weapon or two for when the ammo runs out. I maintain range from slow units by maintaining range from slow units. I don't have to be faster than them to do this, as long as I am not slower.

Edited by Kaijin, 09 January 2014 - 10:44 AM.

[LastPaladin]

Charons Little Helper, on 10 December 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

I totally agree on an LRM boat. However - on an assault mech - you can make a mech who has decent LRMs and solid other abilities who doesn't need BAP. On an LRM boat - that ECM light can make you worthless. On the assault hybrid - you should probably be busy shooting it with your non-LRM weapons anyway.

I agree, this should be called the "LRM boat" commandments, because there are quite a few that either don't apply or are only somewhat applicable to mechs with mixed loadouts that happen to carry LRMS. A single LRM10 with Tag, and a couple tons of ammo on my Victor is a nice addition that helps me get finishing kills on guys that run for cover. Adding Artemis, Beagle, and a huge engine really wouldn't be worth the weigh just to enhance one small aspect of the build.

[Tesunie]

Victor Morson, on 08 January 2014 - 09:18 PM, said:

Just to clear it up, there's quite a few PUGs that are quite skilled at the game, and quite experienced. The point being made at that time I think was that the competitive units should be the ones talked to about game balance, because it benefits everyone, and even if there are VERY experienced excellent PUG players, you'll also get tons of white noise from that segment of the player base.

I still hold to this. In fact I would be very, very happy to put the entire game balancing feedback in the hands of Mercenary's Star, since it has 4 of the 10 best units in the game right now. They understand the game extremely well and being a collection of units, can offer different perspectives.

All I can say to this is... Arrogant much? Is their (your conception of "competitive players") opinion on weapon balance and game situation THAT much more superior to my own that mine does not matter? I wont even go into the rest of this...

This is a can of worms you really shouldn't have brought to the table to be opened. Cause I'm sure someone will open it and it isn't going to be nice. I'll leave it at this, unless you press the issue and wish to open it yourself.

Victor Morson, on 09 January 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

It does go a long ways, though, in particular when you consider the weaknesses of the skirmisher are precisely the same as the non-skirmisher.


But it's also why the fast-moving rule is important; you want to run straight back to your lines if hounded by a Jenner, and you can't do that in a Stalker. While you're right, the light would easily catch up on and overtake your Griffin, your Griffin should be able to get back to people who can swat the light for very little damage.

A heavier mboat will get shredded in the same scenario.

Likewise, the faster skirmisher with jets can jump and "glide" away from the target, while turning to face the target, delivering serious return fire while the distance is closed; the slower heavier 'mech can pretty much just stand & deliver until it's overrun.



Except that the same argument as to why a fast properly configured skirmisher can wreck a slower LRM unit is the same as the reason you want the speed above: Being able to fall in and out of the "front line" as needed getting shots, with the maneuverability to do it.

PS: The Griffin is really good at this. I plan to pick one up when they go Cbill, it's the one thing another medium does better than the Shadow Hawk.

Weakness of the skirmisher LRMs and non-skirmisher LRMs are not the same. They are two different configurations that are played in two different ways. Need I go more in dept about this?

What? A slower unit can't just stay closer to their unit more? Do you not consider other ways and styles that something can be played? Speed lets you move farther from your team. But even then, do you know how many times I've ran enemies through my friendly lines to get help, and they ignored me till I was dead? It's the life of a PUG... Sometimes your team will help you, other times you are on your own. This is why, unless you are in a premade, I suggest back up weapons. Not to say one can not work without them, but I just suggest them.

Does jump "gliding" make you move somehow faster than a faster jump mech (example: Jenner, Spider)? Really? We must not be playing the same game.

A slower LRM based mech can still do well against your "skirmisher", depending upon how they are played. My Stalker could probably do well against you, as it's got 6 med lasers to shear into a mech I know is moving too fast for my LRMs. Once more, the concept of back up weapons can help counter your "pure LRM vs LRM" thought process. This is not to say that either one of us will or will not lose more often than the other.

Victor Morson, on 08 January 2014 - 09:39 PM, said:

Just as you can't argue the world is flat once it's been discovered to be round, there is no rational argument that can justify taking an LRM with Artemis + TAG, as the weapon becomes wasted weight and crit space, nothing more, without these enhancements.

Because all of the roles and ideas suggested flat out do not work. Assault LRMs for example can be effective but is also immediately counterable; as stated, anyone driving a skirmisher will obliterate a Highlander running LRMs without even taking serious damage.

It's very one sided and newbies need a resource that both educates them on how it operates, and shoots down misinformation. There's a lot of that.

This is indisputable truth. If you pay 22 tons for weapons and don't go the extra few tons to make them worth it, you're handicapping yourself horribly. There's just no getting around it.

Do I care if you handicap yourself? Absolutely not. Why am I arguing it then? Simple: Again, I want to shoot down misinformation for new players interested in using LRMs.

You just totally started an argument about backup weapons (4 mediums) that takes 4 tons of ammo away from your 50 tonner's LRMs, which means they will turn into a paper weight 480 missiles sooner which was bad.. but then moved on to using your teammates to support you? Which is precisely what you should do with a skirmisher.

4 medium lasers isn't going to win you close range fights.

4 tons of LRM ammo is several dead 'mechs.

I stand by my assessment.

It will also die to an AMS that happens to wander past before it even gets out of the launcher, so yeah.

The Large Laser = Drops in, works with all weapons.

The LRM = Drops in, countered by ECM without BAP, countered by ECM at range without TAG, slow locks without augments, bad lock holding time without modules, ran run out of ammo (unlike LL), nobody adds 2 DHS per Large Laser anyway.

I am not arguing for something that is false. I am not even arguing against anything that is hard fact. I am merely pointing out other options and opinions counter to your own.

BAP: Only counters ECM 180m. Usefulness, situational.
TAG: Helpful for cutting through ECM when one has direct line of sight.
LRMs: Can be shot indirectly, situation dependent. (Advantage over taking that Large Laser.)
Large Laser: Depending upon one's configuration, one probably should take 2 extra sinks to keep it cool, unless they already run cool. This also presumes that one HAS an energy point to install a LL in. Which could also negate your TAG concept for "one tone more".

AMS: There are other ways of overcoming AMS, if you even cared to try most times. I actually found that having my missiles shoot off in waves (like placing an LRM15 into a 5 missile slot) can help a wave go through AMS uncontested. My experience has revealed to me that the second wave (particularly if it comes out in 3 waves) will hit an AMS target almost unscathed, but your first wave will almost be completely destroyed and the third wave will have a few taken out, but not all. What I see happen is AMS targets the closer one till all of them are destroyed and a little longer at them, then the second wave is too close for it to "lock" (AMS has a "minimum" range, so to say, on when it can lock onto a missile) so it will shoot a little at the third wave, which is mostly too close. As I said, AMS is not "all powerful" and there are other ways around it. This is also why some of us might "chain fire" LRMs in two "bursts" very closely behind one another...

(I was going to post this long post about my builds and how they are used, but posted created while writing it up sum up my point better than I was doing. So, I shall only post this vastly small portion of my post instead, omitting the builds I tend to use and how I use them.)

[NRP]

Okay, interesting discussion in this thread. I think I've learned some things. I'm not really an LRM jockey, but I occassionally like to sling them. I almost always PUG solo, so here is my current LRM "boat" for that environment. It seems to only violate one of the "commandments". Please critique:

STK-3H

Edited by NRP, 09 January 2014 - 01:24 PM.

[RamsoPanzer]

Wow 15 pages talking about a weapon that doesnt even need to be aimed.... xD

Edited by RamsoPanzer, 09 January 2014 - 01:41 PM.

[NRP]

RamsoPanzer, on 09 January 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

Wow 15 pages talking about a weapon that doesnt even needs to be aimed.... xD

It sure seems like that, but apparently the devil is in the details.

[Charons Little Helper]

NRP, on 09 January 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

Okay, interesting discussion in this thread. I think I've learned some things. I'm not really an LRM jockey, but I occassionally like to sling them. I almost always PUG solo, so here is my current LRM "boat" for that environment. It seems to only violate one of the "commandments". Please critique:

STK-3H

You should probably try to squeeze in endosteel. It seems like you really have more heatsinks than you need. If you up the engine to an XL300 - you can put two into the engine. The only other thing - is to put a pair of LRM5s in there - upping the total to LRM50 - all in a single blob and avoiding ghost heat.

However, it's more than the 25% bump in missile firepower it first appears. Those 10 extra missiles will be among the most center-seeking of the blob. In addition, you can set one or both of them to a different fire group. That way - if you just need to keep someone's head down, but have virtually no chance of actually hitting them - waste a mere 5 missiles to set off their alarms. Heck - I've even done so outside 1000m to get someone to run for cover.

[Kjudoon]

RamsoPanzer, on 09 January 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

Wow 15 pages talking about a weapon that doesnt even need to be aimed.... xD

Yes. LRMs are the near perfect weapon, aren't they?

[Tesunie]

NRP, on 09 January 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

Okay, interesting discussion in this thread. I think I've learned some things. I'm not really an LRM jockey, but I occassionally like to sling them. I almost always PUG solo, so here is my current LRM "boat" for that environment. It seems to only violate one of the "commandments". Please critique:

STK-3H

Looks nice from what I can see, except for the XL engine. I don't recommend XL on Stalkers, but that's my own opinion on the subject. I'd also consider, unless you find it runs too hot, to up the engine size and place Endo. A larger engine can fit more heat sinks in...

This is what I would suggest personally, of course this is all up to personal opinion and play style: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...63bf071aba3c125
I suggest the Std engine over the XL, as if you aren't careful you can quickly lose a side torso (unless they drastically changed the hit boxes that much). If you are good at shifting your damage around and protecting those large sides, than the XL is fine. My version has a slightly smaller std engine, but you wont lose much proficiency from the smaller engine. It's going to run a little hotter than your own loadout, but I changed the ERLLs for LLs, as your LRMs should hopefully cover that longer range (play style dependent). The change from ER to normal should also help with the lower heat threshold from having fewer sinks.

This is, of course, my thoughts and opinions. The largest concern I have here is about the XL engine more than anything else. The rest seems fairly solid.