474 replies to this topic

[somenothing]

With in Griffin & Wolverine now in the game for a while, how are you guys finding them for LRM builds, like what some did with the SHawk? I've just got my 2x's on JM-A, so gonna grind a bit more CBills with it until I get enough exp to use the Saber mechs well (and enough spare CBills for Artemis/Engine upgrades).

Just wanna hear your thoughts, but my initial ideas are...

WVR-6R would be nice for the 3xLRM10's Tag & CBills bonus - http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=130&l=f9a959da2dfc977edbe0ba43f50cc621d0a49da5 (but skimped a bit on arm & leg armor to make room for BAP & 4 JJs)

Griffin - I'm tempted to use the Phoenix Variant for CBills bonus ( http://mwo.smurfy-ne...67cd931466e49a3 ), but this is tempting too - http://mwo.smurfy-ne...147588825e917fd

These 2 tickle my fancy cos I can potentially make it Standard Engine and have a blind torso/arm side to block incoming fire, like the Centurians, but i'll be pretty tight on weight for proper speed and jumpjets. The 7 JJ slots has me thinking....

but I might be thinking too much.

Edited by somenothing, 05 January 2014 - 06:34 PM.

[Hoaggie]

I just want to point out, I did exactly zero of these things, and last time I brought a LRM boat I did over 700 damage and 4 kills. It’s about how you use what you’ve got, not about what you’ve got.

[Stomp]

I like these suggestions! For many new Mechwarriors, the intricacy of LRMs is lost, as people don't have a lot of visibility to all these upgrades and utility equipment all at once, without hunting through the Mechlab for 30 minutes reading descriptions.

That said, I think you should start adding amendments, and as a disclaimer, state somewhere that if people DON'T follow these commandments they'll be punished just fine as long as they're having fun.

I think a good amendment would be EXCEPTIONS to a commandment, as such:

For example, I run an LRM Kintaro with 5 LRM 5s, BAP, an XL 315, and an ER LL and a ML with 5 tons of LRM ammo. On chainfire these LRMs "rock and knock", generating a lot of smoke and shaking on an enemy, as well as harassing. Bringing Artemis on this build is prohibitive to the actual design, as a 55 tonner can't actually afford 5 tons for Artemis without gimping itself in some other aspect of the design. Also, bringing TAG also limits your close range fighting capabilities. I need to be fast and reactionary in order to effectively harass an enemy and keep their heads down as my heavies and assaults move up into engagement range; I also need to focus enemies being fought by my team so that I can run distraction. In this VERY limited example, bringing TAG and Artemis doesn't work; the TAG negates my ML, cutting my short range defense in half. Artemis gimps either my speed or alternate weapons or ammunition, as I have to take in order to get. The LRM 5s don't really need Artemis, as it has a very small volley with very little missed missiles; therefore, NOT taking this equipment actually helps this LRM platform succeed.

So a suggestion to the OP, is an amendment to TAG; Don't bring TAG if it might hurt your close range defensive capabilities too much. And to Artemis, don't equip Artemis if you are running LRMs on a smaller platform, as the tonnage will hurt your ability to stay fast and reactionary. Only equip Artemis if you're using larger launchers that would benefit more from this upgrade; OR if you have only a small number of launchers, like 2 LRM 15s on a Trebuchet; also only use this upgrade if you have the tonnage to field it effectively, like on a Heavy or Assault LRM platform, such as the Battlemaster or especially the Stalker.

Edited by Stomp, 06 January 2014 - 03:45 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Stomp, on 06 January 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

That said, I think you should start adding amendments, and as a disclaimer, state somewhere that if people DON'T follow these commandments they'll be punished just fine as long as they're having fun.

Many many many amendments have been suggested - and the OP is of the firm opinion that the only way to viably play in any way is to play his way - or to not play at all.

[Stomp]

Shar Wolf, on 06 January 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

Many many many amendments have been suggested - and the OP is of the firm opinion that the only way to viably play in any way is to play his way - or to not play at all.

It is what it is, lots of people don't enjoy that you can change builds on MWO with such freedom... some would even suggest hardpoint limitations for smaller mechs, etc. There will always be friction between elements that say MWO is a sim, and should be THIS way, and others that are inclined to let MWO develop organically into something all it's own. That being said, it still is a lot of good information, even if somebody is pigheaded. Not saying that anybody is here, but...

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

Well the commandments are good. but I have gotten plenty of LRM kills other ways. Right now I am running a griffin with 4 LRM5's and chain firing them. Your basic classic shaker build. Also have an ERlarge laser and Medium pulse laser. It works well as a flank harasser/mid range support mech.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Stomp, on 06 January 2014 - 04:19 PM, said:

It is what it is, lots of people don't enjoy that you can change builds on MWO with such freedom.

Not so much that -as he feels he has found the perfect setup - and thus anything else is not perfect - and as they are not perfect (in his eyes at least) anyone who even suggests that anything else be used is - by definition, an individual not worth listening to about anything
(as is evidenced by the fact that after disagreeing with him ONCE I cannot even agree with him without him telling people not to listen to me)

As for the harsher hardpoint limitations - there is little to no reason for them to add the bulk (read: all but a few - I would not expect any more of the 55 toners after the clan-pack - ever) of the mechs from the series, such as the Panther or the Wolfhound (both extremely iconic and popular mechs) without first limiting the Jenner and Raven from mimicking their builds so well.

-while I admire that you did not call us pigheaded (barely ) - those who call for the limits so strongly are not necessarily so pigheaded either. -there are a LOT of mechs in the series, and we are running out of ones that are either going to be the same as we already have - or DOA without some core building mechanic changes.

[Victor Morson]

Stomp, on 06 January 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

For example, I run an LRM Kintaro with 5 LRM 5s, BAP, an XL 315, and an ER LL and a ML with 5 tons of LRM ammo. On chainfire these LRMs "rock and knock", generating a lot of smoke and shaking on an enemy, as well as harassing. Bringing Artemis on this build is prohibitive to the actual design, as a 55 tonner can't actually afford 5 tons for Artemis without gimping itself in some other aspect of the design.

The problem is the whole cluster is 25 missiles, which can break AMS, but in chainfire is simply feeding the anti-missile system. The Kintaro can make a suitable missile skirmisher, really, but you'd be better off with something that has a few bigger launchers in the mix, even if you have to not use all 5 hardpoints. i.e. 2x 10 2x 5 or if you can fit a 15 in there, you'd benefit greatly without losing much.

Stomp, on 06 January 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

Also, bringing TAG also limits your close range fighting capabilities. I need to be fast and reactionary in order to effectively harass an enemy and keep their heads down as my heavies and assaults move up into engagement range; I also need to focus enemies being fought by my team so that I can run distraction. In this VERY limited example, bringing TAG and Artemis doesn't work; the TAG negates my ML, cutting my short range defense in half.

Assuming you are in a KTO-18, those ML are going to end up a whopping 2 lasers. That will effectively accomplish two things: One of them is Jack. That's why I say don't worry about that close range armament at all; those 2 lasers aren't going to accomplish much in this sort of setup so it's FAR better to improve your range game, and make your damage focus on single locations.

Stomp, on 06 January 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

Artemis gimps either my speed or alternate weapons or ammunition, as I have to take in order to get. The LRM 5s don't really need Artemis, as it has a very small volley with very little missed missiles; therefore, NOT taking this equipment actually helps this LRM platform succeed.

There's a lot of this "LRM/5s don't need Artemis because they're already a tight group" think going around, but it's wrong. LRM/5s with Artemis are like heat seeking, center-torso murdering machines, that will impact the same exact location almost universally. It's a huge bump. If there were no hardpoint limitations, I'd probably be suggesting nothing but LRM/5 spam.

Stomp, on 06 January 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

So a suggestion to the OP, is an amendment to TAG; Don't bring TAG if it might hurt your close range defensive capabilities too much.

Again the loss of one ton and one energy hardpoint is absolutely vital to get the most out of the other 90% of your weapon tonnage.

Stomp, on 06 January 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

And to Artemis, don't equip Artemis if you are running LRMs on a smaller platform, as the tonnage will hurt your ability to stay fast and reactionary.

Again, you might have to shuffle up from an all-LRM/5 setup, but it doesn't hurt your ability to stay fast and reactionary - it is virtually required to get single-locational damage. I run my Shadow Hawk with a 15/10/5 split, firing it as if it were 2x15 against AMS, for example; it's near pinpoint level damage.

[Victor Morson]

somenothing, on 05 January 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

With in Griffin & Wolverine now in the game for a while, how are you guys finding them for LRM builds, like what some did with the SHawk? I've just got my 2x's on JM-A, so gonna grind a bit more CBills with it until I get enough exp to use the Saber mechs well (and enough spare CBills for Artemis/Engine upgrades).

Just wanna hear your thoughts, but my initial ideas are...

WVR-6R would be nice for the 3xLRM10's Tag & CBills bonus - http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=130&l=f9a959da2dfc977edbe0ba43f50cc621d0a49da5 (but skimped a bit on arm & leg armor to make room for BAP & 4 JJs)

Griffin - I'm tempted to use the Phoenix Variant for CBills bonus ( http://mwo.smurfy-ne...67cd931466e49a3 ), but this is tempting too - http://mwo.smurfy-ne...147588825e917fd

These 2 tickle my fancy cos I can potentially make it Standard Engine and have a blind torso/arm side to block incoming fire, like the Centurians, but i'll be pretty tight on weight for proper speed and jumpjets. The 7 JJ slots has me thinking....

but I might be thinking too much.

The Wolverine is pretty bad; it's inferior to a Shadow Hawk in most every way.

The Griffin on the other hand is very solid. In fact I believe the Griffin 1N or 3M may surpass the Shadow Hawk as the absolute optimal LRM Skirmisher, as well as being a powerful brawling variant. If SRMs were improved you'd see the Griffin move up the tier list a lot, but for LRMs, it's definitely worth trying.

PS: 3x 10s violate Ghost Heat to a degree (it's a manageable violation).. I reworked your 3M to this setup:

Griffin Skirmisher Updated

Major changes:

• Placed enough armor on the head to take at least one good hit from most guns
  
• Stripped armor from the worthless arm to fully armor the TAG arm
  
• Removed CASE as with XL, it will not benefit the 'mech (Ammo explosions will still destroy it)
  
• Removed all but one Jump Jet, which is enough to glide and get on most buildings; extra tonnage used to upgrade LRM Launchers
  
• Downgraded the engine to a 295 to make room for a BAP to counter ECM up close

If you are wondering why I updated the 3M despite not using all of it's ports, instead of the 1N, it's because of the missile tubing. It should fire a 15/10/5 burst all in the same exact salvo, which is a nice advantage for cracking AMS systems and a big benefit over the Shadow Hawk for this kind of setup.

Hoaggie, on 06 January 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

I just want to point out, I did exactly zero of these things, and last time I brought a LRM boat I did over 700 damage and 4 kills. It’s about how you use what you’ve got, not about what you’ve got.

Again, one of the reasons LRMs have such a horrible reputation in the competitive community is being known for high damage, but damage that doesn't matter because it's scattering everywhere; those kills have likely come from getting lucky with hits on wounded areas.

With Artemis + TAG most of your damage will be into single locations. This might even reduce your overall damage #s, as you're firing more carefully, but your contributions will matter far more.

Edited by Victor Morson, 06 January 2014 - 06:54 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Shar Wolf, on 06 January 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

Many many many amendments have been suggested - and the OP is of the firm opinion that the only way to viably play in any way is to play his way - or to not play at all.

It's not so much playing my way or no way, but with LRMs, there is a very specific set of things you need to do to get productive results out of them, which is why this thread got created in the first place.

Most weapon systems don't have this kind of a guide because they are so much easier. I can tell people "The AC/5 is a good gun, check it out." I might even be able to write a tiny guide on how to manage your UAC/5 fire, but ultimately, it's "Get this gun, slap in some ammo, go have fun."

LRMs don't work that way. LRMs without all their supporting factors are horrible, horrible weapons. They're so bad, in fact, that this has lead to them being entirely discounted as even usable in serious games.

I think they've still got some life, and an interesting, niche in them, but unless you are absolutely optimizing them, they're really bad.

Again, it's a very unique situation and I didn't write the rules on them (if I had, a lot would be different, but that's another story)... but I am here to try to help new players understand how to make them effective.

EDIT: This is also why I facepalm every time a newbie writes a "LRMs are easy mode, nerf please lol" thread. It's the most ludicrously complicated gun in the whole game, bar none.

Edited by Victor Morson, 06 January 2014 - 07:02 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Still ignoring you Vic - so don't expect a response to whatever venom you vomit this time.

[Victor Morson]

Shar Wolf, on 06 January 2014 - 07:44 PM, said:

Still ignoring you Vic - so don't expect a response to whatever venom you vomit this time.

Helping with builds & talking logically = venom. LOL.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Victor Morson, on 06 January 2014 - 07:54 PM, said:

Helping with builds & talking logically = venom. LOL.

(Note I am aware that I am breaking my ignorage)

After having spent so long mocking every post I have made anywhere near your vicinity: even the ones where I agree with you!

...can you really blame me?

(NOTE: yes you can, because you are obsessed with the idea that my builds, despite all evidence to the contrary: are "BAD BUILDS!" after having been told one fact about one of them.)

[sneeking]

so long as I don't get bailed 1m:20s into tha match by a couple of experienced jenners then its highly likely some poor newb as you like to put it is out there screaming nerf the lrm's.

they probably don't appreciate how much effort went into developing a method and how much risk there is in running a dedicated lrm build.

you can facepalm if you like but I can see how they would arrive at the conclusion.

[1453 R]

The Commandments, ironically enough given the name, aren't necessarily hard-and-fast, GOTTA FOLLOW rules for making LRMs work. They are, however, a pretty fantastic New User Guide for getting people to stop trying to cram sixty LRM tubes in a Stalker and think they're creating the Left Hand of God.

Some more experienced players who know their 'Mechs, their playstyles, and their goals can diverge from the Commandments and still be successful, sure - but listing every niggling niche build that can get away with not following the original rules detracts from the intent of the original guide, and is also what the rest of the discussion thread is for, anyways.

Victor and I don't generally get along - he thinks I'm a useless scrub who would best serve MWO by shutting my scrub mouth, leaving the forums altogether, and letting the good players give good feedback, and I think he's a towering jackass - but in this instance he more or less took the words right out of my mouth. Lurmishing is the best way to Get Work Done with LRM launchers, and this is a pretty solid new user's guide to lurmishing. The more people we can convince to run 30 Artemis tubes on a Treb or Shadow Hawk as opposed to 60 bukkake tubes on a Stalker, the better off we'll all be. Except the people getting blown up by LRM platforms that actually know what they're doing and score solid kills.

[NRP]

I'd like a bit more explanation about why BAP is vital for an LRM boat. I know it counters ECM, but it only does so within a certain range, which if I recall correctly is about 180m. Since LRM min range is also 180m, BAP would appear to be not very useful. Please clarify.

[1453 R]

It stops random Spiders crossing your path from killing your lock against the target you're actually firing at. if you're pounding a Stalker 500 meters away into wreckage and some rotten Spider decides to blitz you - he doesn't even need to hit you, just get within ECM range of you - boom. Locks are gone, missiles hit the ground, and the Stalker escapes to fight another day. Mostly, it's a trolling reduction measure.

I would argue that the Beagle is the least essential of an LRM 'Mech's tools, but it's certainly a help if you can find the weight for it. I just had a game where a trollfacing Raven kept me from finishing off an Orion because I opted for AMS over Beagle on my Treb. Normally I'd call that a fair trade, but some days, mang...

[Charons Little Helper]

The Griffon is definitely the new king of LRM skirmishing. (the focus of this guide) Their torso twist (they have the best in the game) lets them literally run directly away from someone while keeping them under lock & tag.

[NRP]

@1453 R
Thanks. That makes sense.

[Hoaggie]

Victor Morson, on 06 January 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

Again, one of the reasons LRMs have such a horrible reputation in the competitive community is being known for high damage, but damage that doesn't matter because it's scattering everywhere; those kills have likely come from getting lucky with hits on wounded areas.

With Artemis + TAG most of your damage will be into single locations. This might even reduce your overall damage #s, as you're firing more carefully, but your contributions will matter far more.

I'm really glad I saw this post, because I've been hearing these "commandments" quoted around and was throughly irate. If players follow these "commandments" they take away half the advantages of LRMs. (That is, being able to do damage without LOS and outside the max range of all but a few weapons)

It's cool to see that you are trying to help, and it's really great that you are making the game easier for people like me, but you are making the game harder for people that don't know what they are doing who try to do what you are telling them.

If I put out 700 damage across multiple targets they are going to feel the pain. So maybe I didn't get 700 damage worth of kills, and the damage was spread out, but I contributed to my team by dishing out enough damage that the rest of the team was able to put one in the W column. I don't even remember the amount of assists I got, but it's not all about getting kills, it's about your team.

If I take my LRM boat, (the one that breaks all these "commandments") and get no kills but I get a large number of assists, high damage numbers, component destruction, and my team wins, that is a success. When you are constantly bing hit by LRM 15s any time you step out in the open, from some guy you cant even see, who is out of range of most of your weapons, it impacts the way you play.
It doesnt matter what mech you drive, as long as you influence the way the other team plays, you force them to react. If they react to you, you are dictating their response. If you dictate their response, you dictate the outcome of the game.

What is the "competitive community"? This is a PVP game with no public rankings, how can you compete? How can you really know who is better?