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[ The Lrm Commandments ]


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#201 luxebo

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 06:36 PM

View PostVictor Morson, on 13 December 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:


At that point I was replying to about 8 people every 15 minutes, so I bet you anything i pasted the wrong quote header. I apologize for any misunderstandings, but it definitely was not intentional.


Ah, I see. No big deal, I probably would've made a similar mistake if I had to reply that many times.

Edit: Wow, 11 pages. That's a lot of comments.

Edited by luxebo, 13 December 2013 - 06:36 PM.


#202 Charons Little Helper

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 05:36 AM

Victor - your LRM style seems to be what the trebuchet was build for. You try them since the hitbox tweak?

The best one I could come up with is - http://mwo.smurfy-ne...91aa4f4d36b6b1e

It actually has more tubes than the Shadowhawk (ignoring the head - since with artemis you can't put any missiles there anyway)

#203 Charons Little Helper

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 05:42 AM

It's a bit faster than your Shadowhawk as well. With upcoming weight limits - those five fewer tons might even be significant.

#204 RLBell

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 01:08 PM

View PostNgamok, on 10 December 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

@ Victor

Only one Stalker has tubes higher than 10 and that's the 3H. All the others have 10s and 6s so unless you want to run all LRM10s and 5s, the 3H can handle the 20s in the arms and 5s in the torso slots.


A Stalker with only 5's and 10's can still be a scary LRM boat. Even a salvo of only thirty LRM's can be a threat. The STK-3H can be a beast if you are worn down and do not catch it unawares.

If you have a BAP and are still armored, you can ignore the spider blasting away with machine guns and kill his team mates.

#205 RLBell

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 01:17 PM

View PostBurke IV, on 10 December 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

a single 15 with artymis will still tickle a jester even with the ams.

I have a question about the 180m range. Does this count when you fire the missiles or is it how far the missiles travel. I beleive its how far the missiles travel, this means a clever pilot can fire as close as 150m if both mechs are moving in the right way.


This works both ways. You can launch at below minimum range if the target is moving away from you. The faster the target is fleeing, the closer in you can launch. An atlas fleeing at 48 kph (15m/s) might be hit as close in as launching from 160m. The locust fleeing at 170kph (about 50m/s) can be hit at a launching distance of 105m. This assumes that the target is running directly away and that LRM's travel at 120m/s.

If the target is moving towards you, you also have the option of firing from more than 1000m away, but it is a risky shot.

#206 Victor Morson

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 04:24 PM

View PostCharons Little Helper, on 14 December 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

Victor - your LRM style seems to be what the trebuchet was build for. You try them since the hitbox tweak?

The best one I could come up with is - http://mwo.smurfy-ne...91aa4f4d36b6b1e

It actually has more tubes than the Shadowhawk (ignoring the head - since with artemis you can't put any missiles there anyway)


That's actually a pretty solid setup for the Treb; I used to run one with a 5 in the Narc port just to keep a constant rain of single missiles coming down, since AMS gets horribly confused and glitchy by that.

But that Treb isn't too bad. The 9D let's you not have to armor an arm, buying you some more ammunition, but overall it's a solid 50 tonner missile boat along the lines of what I'm talking about.

I think the Shadow Hawk outclasses it - those 5 tons make a difference - but you could definitely do worse than a Treb.

#207 Victor Morson

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 04:25 PM

View PostRLBell, on 14 December 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

A Stalker with only 5's and 10's can still be a scary LRM boat. Even a salvo of only thirty LRM's can be a threat. The STK-3H can be a beast if you are worn down and do not catch it unawares.


While the Stalker is too slow to really be a top LRM boat, as far as missiles go, yes - 2x10 2x5 is a ton of damage, with a nice tight grouping. If we ever get a decent 60 tonner that supports that, it'd be pretty solid.

#208 Victor Morson

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 04:27 PM

View PostRLBell, on 14 December 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:


This works both ways. You can launch at below minimum range if the target is moving away from you. The faster the target is fleeing, the closer in you can launch. An atlas fleeing at 48 kph (15m/s) might be hit as close in as launching from 160m. The locust fleeing at 170kph (about 50m/s) can be hit at a launching distance of 105m. This assumes that the target is running directly away and that LRM's travel at 120m/s.

If the target is moving towards you, you also have the option of firing from more than 1000m away, but it is a risky shot.


This is a valid point, and something to keep in mind when engaging people close to your minimum range.

Remember, the range effect is from the point of firing though - if you're moving away, and they are moving away, and you drop a salvo - it's the salvo's firing point that matters. Not your range. So even if you clear 180 and your missiles hit, they're not in 180, and you won't get damage.

Just to clarify anyway. Your point is absolutely valid.

#209 627

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 07:52 AM

View PostRLBell, on 14 December 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:


This works both ways. You can launch at below minimum range if the target is moving away from you. The faster the target is fleeing, the closer in you can launch. An atlas fleeing at 48 kph (15m/s) might be hit as close in as launching from 160m. The locust fleeing at 170kph (about 50m/s) can be hit at a launching distance of 105m. This assumes that the target is running directly away and that LRM's travel at 120m/s.

If the target is moving towards you, you also have the option of firing from more than 1000m away, but it is a risky shot.



LRMs are way faster than 120kph. you cant outrun them not even with a 170kph locust or commando.

#210 Charons Little Helper

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 08:27 AM

View Post627, on 15 December 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

LRMs are way faster than 120kph. you cant outrun them not even with a 170kph locust or commando.


Yes they are faster than 120kph. They're 120m/s - just like he said. 120 meters per second = 432 kilometers per hour.

#211 C E Dwyer

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 08:27 AM

View PostVictor Morson, on 09 December 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

Thou shalt carry at least 25 missiles per salvo.
Unlike many weapon systems, there is a direct counter to LRMs - the Anti-Missile System (AMS). This will decimate a number of missiles in each flight, and all allied AMS will cover teammates. As such, you need to make sure you are firing at least 25 to 30 missiles per salvo or the vast majority of your firepower will be shot down before it reaches the target.

Thou shalt always inspect thy missile port numbers.
On top of hardpoints and weapon sizes as limiting factors, next we have to talk about Missile Ports. This can get a bit confusing. Basically, for every launcher port in a location, one missile can be fired out of it. Some launchers will dynamically reconfigure when this happens, such as on the Catapult, while others are fixed. Often these fixed ports are NARC or Streak ports that allow for a single missile at a time and do not update; this can be found on the Trebuchet.

You should always make sure that at a minimum, all of your missiles can clear the tubes without impacting the weapons recycle rate. i.e. an LRM/20 in a single port launcher will take longer to fire than to recycle!

Thou shalt always carry a Beagle Active Probe (BAP)
Aside from it's advantages in the targeting department, BAP is notable at countering the LRM's worst enemy - the ECM. Up close, without BAP, a single ECM 'mech will interrupt your targeting - rendering your weapons and any in flight missiles suddenly useless. This alone, in addition to it's targeting properties, make this a must have item for every LRM boat. No exceptions.

Thou shalt always carry Targeting Acquisition Gear (TAG)
The other counter to ECM on the battlefield, aside from PPCs (which cause a brief window a target can be locked) is TAG. For only a single ton, TAG is the single most important piece of gear for an LRM 'mech. It can:
  • Interrupt ECM inside of 750m
  • Speed locking times dramatically
  • Make a lock hold for longer, if they get to cover
  • Tightens missile grouping, allowing for more on-target damage
  • Strengthens missile tracking, allowing for accurate hits against lights & mediums!
Since there is little downside other than a visual signature for firing it, you can place it in a group with your missile weapons in addition to all other weapon groups, and not even have to worry about micromanaging it. It's superior in every single way to the NARC (which takes ammunition, is four times as heavy, and does not stack with Artemis) and a must have piece of gear without exception.



Thou shalt always carry Artemis!
Another must have piece of gear for a properly fit LRM 'mech is Artemis. Artemis will greatly tighten the missile spread, stacking with TAG, when you have line of sight on a target. This makes the difference between damage that is spread out and mostly useless, and that is clustered up and devastating. Any LRM equipped 'mech without Artemis, which also speeds locking time, is at a grave disadvantage to dealing damage.

Thou shalt never defy Ghost Heat
The much hated mechanic Ghost Heat is in particular confusing with LRMs. In summary, you will begin taking unnecessary heat if you exceeed two "primary" launchers, sizes 10-20. LRM/5s do not count towards this limit. This means that the following math is accurate at the time of this writing:

2x LRM20 2x LRM5 (50 Missiles) = No Ghost Heat
1x LRM20 3x LRM10 (50 Missiles) = 4x LRM/20 Ghost Heat
3x LRM15 1x LRM5 (50 Missiles) = 3x LRM/15 Ghost Heat, none from LRM/5

It's just gets more confusing but that's the gist. You want any design to have TWO main launchers, with additional LRM5s, and no more than that. You also do not want to chain fire or group-fire delay LRMs as missiles-per-salvo is needed.. see commandment #1.

Thou shalt take an Adv. Target Decay Module
This module is absolutely key of you enjoy LRMs at all, and is more must have gear. Adding several seconds of a maintained lock once the signal is broken, this allows you to sink many, many shots taken on victims that have gotten to cover than you ever would otherwise. Saves literally tons of missed ammunition.

Thou shalt always stay over 88kph
Without exception, missiles should be put onto 'mechs that can move quickly; the closer to 100 the better. LRMs need to stay within 180m (minimum range) and 750m (where TAG functions) to do the most damage, and in order to do that, they need to be fast enough to keep their distance and range shots!

A fast moving LRM boat can flee to allies against a close range attacker, can keep minimum distance on a heavy attempting to close with it (firing all the while), and also dodge a large number of incoming LRMs, allowing them to bring down far, far heavier LRM boats. With the Ghost Heat limits, the optimal number of launchers can be placed on a medium like a Centurion or Shadow Hawk without issue!

Thou shalt always try to maintain line of sight!
While indirect fire is what new players most often complain about and feels like an easy way to get damage, it should be a last resort when you are crippled or when you have some spare ammunition and are on your way to better shots.

To do the REAL damage, you need to be maintaining direct line of sight with a TAG lock. That's how your missiles go from an annoying scatter shot rain, to a brutal focused ball of death. Positively always be jockeying for these kinds of positions, furhtering the importance of moving quickly!

Thou shalt always control their fire!
When using different sized launchers, you need to make some calls on how to operate them. Effectively:
  • Against AMS - Wait until your largest longer recycles before firing a new salvo each time.
  • Against non-AMS - Continually fire as fast as your launchers can recycle until you become too warm, then switch to group fire.
Again, avoid chain fire against AMS targets, and in general a big group is better than chained shots; I make an exception when using mismatched launchers since this can allow you to gain a lot of extra DPS against a non-AMS target.



----

If anyone has questions about LRMs, feel free to post them!

Few bits I don't 100% agree with but the most important facets I do and the parts I would quibble about are there or there about.

so the most complete guide which every lurmboater should read

I would add thought shall use tag whenever possible.

and thou shall forgo two tonnes of ammo so your can fit twin med lasers and not be completely useless under 180 meters

#212 St4LkeRxF

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 08:28 AM

View Post627, on 15 December 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

LRMs are way faster than 120kph. you cant outrun them not even with a 170kph locust or commando.


Yep, but most of LRMs will just hit ground at that speed

#213 Kjudoon

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 08:35 AM

View PostSt4LkeRxF, on 15 December 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:


Yep, but most of LRMs will just hit ground at that speed


Unless your target doesn't know how to run away and use cover. I often take off legs that way when they make a bad turn. But I also have noticed running mechs of that speed often don't carry AMS, so switch to chain fire as your chance seems to be better that way of taking off a leg and then making them tent pegs.

#214 St4LkeRxF

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 08:49 AM

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...98bf189f8c921ed

Thats the build i use when i want to be LRM boat and it is pure fun, JJ give nice edge on maps with good cover as you can go up fire LRMs and get back to cover while other LRM boat Assaults without JJ need to leave cover and be better target for poptarts.

Another thing that i try with that build is to always be in 200-350 meters range from target, because most players tend to turn around and run when they see LRM boat that close, and also it is good to fire LRMs in almost flat line at that distance as even poptarts stay long enough in line of sight.

#215 St4LkeRxF

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 08:54 AM

View PostKjudoon, on 15 December 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:


Unless your target doesn't know how to run away and use cover. I often take off legs that way when they make a bad turn. But I also have noticed running mechs of that speed often don't carry AMS, so switch to chain fire as your chance seems to be better that way of taking off a leg and then making them tent pegs.


One time on Forest Colony manged to take out both legs on Dragon that way and same happened to Spider, but it didn't work against Locust for some reason as all missiles just hit ground.

So maybe that system work against some mech and not on others.

#216 Kjudoon

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 09:15 AM

View PostSt4LkeRxF, on 15 December 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:


One time on Forest Colony manged to take out both legs on Dragon that way and same happened to Spider, but it didn't work against Locust for some reason as all missiles just hit ground.

So maybe that system work against some mech and not on others.


Good pilots know how to get away from missiles as long as they have enough speed and maneuverability. I've been able to do it with mechs that go under 80kph on occasion but not outright running through open ground. I also suspect hit detection flaws have much to do with the open ground escape at times.

#217 FerrolupisXIII

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 09:18 AM

besides the fact that Vic is a cocky "i have high ELO so i am always right" kind of guy (no offense :D ) for the most part i agree.slow LRM boats are too easy to flank most of the time.

my only major disagreement is the speed you suggest. most LRM mechs are not capable of that kind of speed while still adhering to your other "commandments" such as # of missiles, TAG, BAP, Artemis, armor, some sort of backup (medium lasers are wonderful) and having enough ammo for a match. i personally consider BAP to be optional, but i wont get into that as its far to much of an argument and mostly based on the fact i rarely do anything but drop with a lance.

I still hold the C1 Catapult to be an excellent mech in this sort of "mobile support" role.
CPLT-C1 Lupus Lux
#1: Check, 30 missiles per volley
#2: Check, 20 slot ports, no problem.
#3: Check, I put one in just for you. I'd rather shave half a ton of armor and have some extra heat sinks or Jump Jets.
#4: Check, I take TAG over BAP any day of the week to be honest. absolutely essential.
#5: Check, Artemis on anything other than LRM-5 Spam Builds.
#6: Check, No Ghost Heat here!
#7: Check, No arguments here, most important module for an LRM mech.
#8: Check, Catapults cant go over 88kph. 82 w/ Speed Tweak + Jump Jets is very maneuverable, and Acceptable.
#9: Check, As much as possible. Get that TAG + Artemis stack, preferably close enough to Las some stuff as well.
#10: Check, Volley fire is generally best with paired launchers anyways. plus this build is basically neutral just firing the LRM's

Seems like i have something in common with Vic, which is sort of scary! lol.

#218 Victor Morson

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 05:15 AM

View PostCathy, on 15 December 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

and thou shall forgo two tonnes of ammo so your can fit twin med lasers and not be completely useless under 180 meters


I still hold that 2 tons of ammo = 1-2 dead 'mechs, 2 ML = Some chip damage. Use the speed to avoid the <180 zone.

#219 Victor Morson

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 05:22 AM

View PostFerrolupisXIII, on 15 December 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

besides the fact that Vic is a cocky "i have high ELO so i am always right" kind of guy (no offense :) ) for the most part i agree.slow LRM boats are too easy to flank most of the time.

my only major disagreement is the speed you suggest. most LRM mechs are not capable of that kind of speed while still adhering to your other "commandments" such as # of missiles, TAG, BAP, Artemis, armor, some sort of backup (medium lasers are wonderful) and having enough ammo for a match. i personally consider BAP to be optional, but i wont get into that as its far to much of an argument and mostly based on the fact i rarely do anything but drop with a lance.

I still hold the C1 Catapult to be an excellent mech in this sort of "mobile support" role.
CPLT-C1 Lupus Lux
#1: Check, 30 missiles per volley
#2: Check, 20 slot ports, no problem.
#3: Check, I put one in just for you. I'd rather shave half a ton of armor and have some extra heat sinks or Jump Jets.
#4: Check, I take TAG over BAP any day of the week to be honest. absolutely essential.
#5: Check, Artemis on anything other than LRM-5 Spam Builds.
#6: Check, No Ghost Heat here!
#7: Check, No arguments here, most important module for an LRM mech.
#8: Check, Catapults cant go over 88kph. 82 w/ Speed Tweak + Jump Jets is very maneuverable, and Acceptable.
#9: Check, As much as possible. Get that TAG + Artemis stack, preferably close enough to Las some stuff as well.
#10: Check, Volley fire is generally best with paired launchers anyways. plus this build is basically neutral just firing the LRM's

Seems like i have something in common with Vic, which is sort of scary! lol.


Addressing your first point, I think your CPLT is a little too slow for the role you assigned it, just due to weight. While it can carry mediums, and it's pretty quick, it'd still be outclassed by a 50-55 tonner a bit. Also you notably do spend 2 more tons on HS instead of ammo, to support those lasers, nearly doubling their tonnage cost.

Also, have you tried the C4 instead? IMO that is the best possible Catapult LRM platform.
CPLT-C4

Edited by Victor Morson, 21 December 2013 - 05:23 AM.


#220 somenothing

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 06:54 PM

Thanks for the OP - most of the points I had to figure out by trial and error, and tips posted here and there. This reinforces at least the general consensus of why make LRM boats the current way.

I was using my Jager-A w/ 4x LRM5's + a Tag & LL, mostly on chain fire because I found it annoying as hell when I had a constant barrage of missiles hitting my cockpit, obscuring my view and shaking my aim off. Didn't factor in how AMS would've helped. So I'm considering a higher salvo size now.

Two things I need advice on please:

1) How does a BAP technically help on an ECM mech? I've seen old posts on how it helps between the ECM bubble and also the BAP's effective range. What are the numbers for the distance I need to work between?

2) Does sensor range help you be able to make your own locks from further away? I want to know if I should really get modules/BAP to extend my sensor range, but what does it help?

3) What's the range at which you can acquire targets? 700 or 800m? Can't find a reliable source for this figure...
-------
Edit:
Actually I about this part - pls correct my understanding if I'm wrong - So the without the BAP, ECM would prevent you from locking onto anything in the distance too, right?

Quote

Reality: Without BAP an ECM Spider runs past you for 1 second. Every missile you have in the air drops like a rock. If an ECM 'mech walks near you, you can't lock at all without BAP. Remember just because something is close to you, that's not what you want to shoot ; your job as an LRM 'mech is to evade those lights and keep pouring fire on your main target.

View PostOneEyed Jack, on 10 December 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

It does not help with BAP range. ECM shortens the ability to lock a mech to 200m, and completely shots of targeting within it's bubble of 180m. BAP negates the ECM within 150m.

So normally, a mech under ECM can only be locked in the narrow band between 181m an 200m (out off bubble, within sensor range). Assuming you're the one carrying the BAP, if the mech carrying the ECM comes within 150m, it's disabled and anyone can target it. For you this means you can target the ECM mech up to 150m, cannot target it from 151-180m, then can target it again from 181m-200m, at which time you lose lock again.

Sensor Range Module increases the range of normal sensors by 15 or 25%. It has no effect on the 150m range of BAP or the 180m ECM bubble. What it does is increase that 200m number. So, with Adv. Sensor Range you cannot target an ECM mech within 180m, but can target from 181-250m (outside bubble, within sensor range). With ASR and BAP, you can target and ECM mech anywhere within 250m except that band from 151-180m (outside BAP range, still under the bubble) assuming it's the only ECM affecting it.


Range traveled. If you fire on a mech that's at or near minimum range and getting closer to the point of launch, it will likely not do damage. If it gets closer to you, but not tot he point of launch, such as you moving toward the target, you're fine. Likewise, if you shoot at target near maximum range, they may be able to move outside the range and be perfectly safe before the missile get there, even if you move forward and the your range indicator still says they are in range.


Every rule has exceptions. If you already know how to use missiles, and already know those exceptions, then it can be assumed that pointers for newbs don't apply to you. I'm not convinced by anything you wrote that such is the case, but that's neither here nor there. For a NEW player, the best bet is to focus on the basics, not try to start them on advanced concepts, so his guide is very good.


Chain-firing may be good for annoying newbs with screen shake, but it's far from the best option for consistent damage. (It has other specific uses, too, but I won't get into those here.)

Assuming you're not firing a single launcher, waiting for it to hit, then firing the next one, chain-firing puts just as many missiles in the air at one time as group firing. So if you chain 4 launchers and fire them all at a target, you have the same chance of losing lock or the target getting behind cover. The differences are, any AMS between you and the target will have a greater effect, and the target has more time to get behind cover to avoid at least some of the missiles.

If you fire a 50 missile spread at a target, he has X seconds to break lock or get behind blocking cover, or he takes 50 missiles. If you chain-fire 50 missiles (assume 15, 15, 10, 10), he has X seconds to break lock or get cover, or take 15 missiles. He has X + 0.5 seconds to break lock or get cover or take another 15 missiles, etc.... Basically he has a second and a half longer to avoid at least part of the spread, with a missile warning telling him to do so the entire time.

If you want to scare or rattle a target, chain-firing is often a good call. If you want the most possible missiles to actually impact your target, group firing is key.


BAP extends sensor ranges, so your sensors actually have as much range as your missiles. Otherwise, you have 1000m missiles that can only be used at 800m or less without a spotter. Granted, you generally don't want to use LRMs on a target near max range, since there's a chance they'll move out of range, but there are times. That can also be done with SR Mod, though. The primary reason experienced missile users run BAP is to prevent a ECM Light from trolling you, completely shutting off your primary offensive capability, simply by being nearby. Or even getting caught near a DDC if the red team pushes. He might be too close to shoot, but you'll still be able to shoot other targets.

Edited by somenothing, 26 December 2013 - 07:54 PM.






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