474 replies to this topic

[Bobman]

Although I see why you recommended fast LRM boats, it never seems to work for me.

Fatter LRM boats like my BLR-1S work very nicely. In an open area, people who want to get up to attack me usually end up eating too many missiles before they can get close. Sticking with teammates helps a lot if any lights come along. I can eat the other LRMs with my armor, and since my boat is larger than most there usually isn't a problem.

But, when I try to put LRMs on a Griffin or Hawk they don't do that much damage with less LRMs and I end up standing while I fire at enemies in my line of sight anyways. If I try to intentionally get on the move to take advantage of the speed, I usually get into some enemies that I don't want to face, especially with lighter armor. Dodging LRMs with a fast mech also seems difficult when I'm trying it.

Either I might be doing something wrong or the circumstances are against me, but I'm not so sure about fast mechs. Again, I understand why you add this to your thread, however.

[ApolloKaras]

Victor Morson, on 09 December 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

Snip

Bravo Victor! This made my night lol

[mark v92]

dunno if its mentioned but using 2x lrm5 instaid of 1x lrm 10 gives you a ton extra to spend. since 2x lrm 5 are 4 tons were a lrm 10 is 5 tons. same goes for lrm 15 (7tons) and lrm 20 (10tons).

stalker 60 lrm example: 2x lrm 20 + 2x lrm 10 = 30 tons for launchers but 4x lrm 15 = 28 tons for the launchers.

[Motroid]

I like your commandments.
But the one with 88 km/h is just nonsense because it implies that there are no good CPLT, AWS, STK, HGN, etc. missleboats, which actually have variants making them dedicated missleboats and far superior to any other medium missle chassis.
In particular: AWS-8R, CPLT-A1, HGN-733, STK-3H
Just drop the commandment with the 88 km/h. Makes no sense in this context.
Rest is well written and valid.

[somenothing]

Another point to add - mechs whose arms can only move vertically (Catapults, Jagers, Stalkers) have one slight disadvantage that their primary targeting reticle can't reach 'further' once their torso is twisted to the extreme. This makes it harder to keep that red circle over target to maintain lock, while you have a fast moving target (arms' sideway movement is more responsive), and also when trying to walk forward towards the opposite direction (when you need to relocate/retreat).

So that makes the Shawks & BLR's more attractive, added that the former has JJs.

[Victor Morson]

somenothing, on 26 December 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

1) How does a BAP technically help on an ECM mech? I've seen old posts on how it helps between the ECM bubble and also the BAP's effective range. What are the numbers for the distance I need to work between?

Glad to have helped in anyway!

And the answer is: Not in most ways. While it retains the faster info gathering, the BAP's counter-mode won't work when the ECM is passive and does not stack with active. Effectively if a 'mech is capable of supporting a good LRM setup and ECM, that would work entirely in lue fo BAP.

somenothing, on 26 December 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

2) Does sensor range help you be able to make your own locks from further away? I want to know if I should really get modules/BAP to extend my sensor range, but what does it help?

The reason sensor range modules aren't on the guide is in reality, they don't help much. You'd think they would, but 1000m out you have almost no chance of hitting the target anyway (outside of maximum and can easily get away from the shot), so any range past that is entirely wasted. So it's not something that I find is a big deal, unless you want to pre-lock targets to fire the MOMENT they enter 1000m on a charge; even then it's really not all that useful.

somenothing, on 26 December 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

3) What's the range at which you can acquire targets? 700 or 800m? Can't find a reliable source for this figure...

Just over 1000m on your own, though I don't have an exact figure unfortunately on me and am going from memory here (still out of town).

somenothing, on 26 December 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

Actually I about this part - pls correct my understanding if I'm wrong - So the without the BAP, ECM would prevent you from locking onto anything in the distance too, right?

Basically, TAG will counter ECM at a distance; it will not counter it up close, since you are just "lighting up" a target and not jamming the ECM.

BAP will counter on a 1:1 ratio a 'mech with ECM up close - i.e. light 'mechs that are moving behind your lines won't break your locks. Nothing sucks worse than having a Spider barely scratching your paint preventing you from murdering an assault 'mech you have a clear shot on!

[Victor Morson]

Motroid, on 26 December 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

But the one with 88 km/h is just nonsense because it implies that there are no good CPLT, AWS, STK, HGN, etc. missleboats, which actually have variants making them dedicated missleboats and far superior to any other medium missle chassis.
In particular: AWS-8R, CPLT-A1, HGN-733, STK-3H

I do have to assure you that this point was intentional, entirely. There are no good CPLT, AWS, STK or HGN missileboats. They are all vastly inferior to missile skirmishers in the medium range.

Here's why, in a nutshell: They're too big and speed/ranging is life with LRMs, period. Every single time I face an often recommended AWS missile boat, the fight goes as such: The fast missile mech runs at a 90 degree angle pumping out missiles. The Awesome lumbers at an angle lobbing back.

90% of the Awesome's missiles go into the dirt, a worthless arm, or maybe a leg.
90% of the fast medium's missiles go straight-CT, zero splash, against the Awesome.

The result is the Awesome in this scenario ends up cored in a single location and, say, the Shadow Hawk ends up with some minor dents and superfical damage. No matter how good the pilots are, this is the outcome each and every time, to say nothing of the inability to range fast enough or other tactical problems.

So to answer the point, the rule is there to discourage them. I have repeatedly made an exception for the Battlemaster in the "Eh, close enough" category, though. It's the only assault I think is worth fiting LRMs on.

somenothing, on 26 December 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:

Another point to add - mechs whose arms can only move vertically (Catapults, Jagers, Stalkers) have one slight disadvantage that their primary targeting reticle can't reach 'further' once their torso is twisted to the extreme. This makes it harder to keep that red circle over target to maintain lock, while you have a fast moving target (arms' sideway movement is more responsive), and also when trying to walk forward towards the opposite direction (when you need to relocate/retreat).

So that makes the Shawks & BLR's more attractive, added that the former has JJs.

A very good point. I also really like the SHD's ability to TAG anywhere your arm can point at, opposed to the Cent's center-locked TAG; it's improved my missile accuracy drastically.

[Victor Morson]

Bobman, on 26 December 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

Although I see why you recommended fast LRM boats, it never seems to work for me.

Fatter LRM boats like my BLR-1S work very nicely. In an open area, people who want to get up to attack me usually end up eating too many missiles before they can get close. Sticking with teammates helps a lot if any lights come along. I can eat the other LRMs with my armor, and since my boat is larger than most there usually isn't a problem.

But, when I try to put LRMs on a Griffin or Hawk they don't do that much damage with less LRMs and I end up standing while I fire at enemies in my line of sight anyways. If I try to intentionally get on the move to take advantage of the speed, I usually get into some enemies that I don't want to face, especially with lighter armor. Dodging LRMs with a fast mech also seems difficult when I'm trying it.

Either I might be doing something wrong or the circumstances are against me, but I'm not so sure about fast mechs. Again, I understand why you add this to your thread, however.

Two questions: Are you accounting for AMS, and are you accounting for AMS in your path?

If you try to lob LRMs at a target in the path of other AMS equipped 'mechs, they will get shredded; it's one reason repositioning is so important (and thus the controversial speed rule here) to an LRM 'mech. You'll get a fraction of the damage out of them if you try.

Second, are you saving up your missiles to fire in one big salvo against targets with AMS? Pumping mismatched launchers does loads of DPS against non-AMS targets, but you'll get a lot of hit indicators and not a lot of results if you try it against AMS. This can really drag your damage numbers down.

[Alex Warden]

tbh i am abit confused about the BAP part... i think BAP only makes it possible to target a mech inside ECM on very close range where LRM´s don´t work anyway... ? it doesn´t counter ecm itself, just gives you the ability to lock a specific target up close... so if - say a 3L - runs next to you and you are targeting another mech 600 meters away, BAP should not help you a bit other than you can target the 3L (or anything else close enough to you) but not your maintarget anymore... for that you´d still need a TAG

correct me if i´m wrong...

Edited by Alex Warden, 26 December 2013 - 11:39 PM.

[somenothing]

Curious - is blind firing LRMs (5's?) to test out enemy AMS mechs considered useful, whether in group drops or competitive play? I've only done so a couple of times willingly, just for kicks, when grouping with puggers on NGNG's channel, but actually came across to me once when I fired at some silly scout, wanted to close in, only to see heaps of AMS firing into the air, and I was like, no way I'm not going in there...

[somenothing]

Alex Warden, on 26 December 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

tbh i am abit confused about the BAP part... i think BAP only makes it possible to target a mech inside ECM on very close range where LRM´s don´t work anyway... ? it doesn´t counter ecm itself, just gives you the ability to lock a specific target up close...

correct me if i´m wrong...

I'm still looking for the exact range figures, but BAP is useful because ECM will reduce your sensor ranger to 200m (from ~1000m), so it would be impossible for you to target OTHER mechs more than 200m away if an ECM spider/cicada/commanda is running around you, even if not hitting you.

Otherwise, I THINK it's mentioned that since without upgraded modules, you will still be able to hit mechs between the 180 LRM min-range and the 200m ECM-induced max-range, you can expand the max-range to 250 with the modules, but that's still a ridiculously thin range to try to shoot at lights converging on you. I admit at this stage I sometimes give up and just dish out my LRMs by indirect fire at whoever's targetted.

[Victor Morson]

Alex Warden, on 26 December 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

tbh i am abit confused about the BAP part... i think BAP only makes it possible to target a mech inside ECM on very close range where LRM´s don´t work anyway... ? it doesn´t counter ecm itself, just gives you the ability to lock a specific target up close... so if - say a 3L - runs next to you and you are targeting another mech 600 meters away, BAP should not help you a bit other than you can target the 3L (or anything else close enough to you) but not your maintarget anymore... for that you´d still need a TAG

Nono.

OK, this example should be clearer:

You're setup on a nice drift with your missiles on Frozen City, hammering a Highlander and Awesome that keep trying to ridge over and getting loads of damage. You get a whole bunch of missiles in the air and..

LOW SIGNAL

A pesky Spider is running around your feet, maybe even engaging you on and off. He's not doing much damage, really, and people are shooting at him so he'll be gone soon but... well, there goes your LRMs! All the in flight ones missed and you can't lock that Atlas who's standing there in the open because of that ECM.

.... now if you have a BAP, the whole story changes. I hope that clears it up.

[Tesunie]

Victor Morson, on 26 December 2013 - 11:00 PM, said:

Just over 1000m on your own, though I don't have an exact figure unfortunately on me and am going from memory here (still out of town).

Alex Warden, on 26 December 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

tbh i am abit confused about the BAP part... i think BAP only makes it possible to target a mech inside ECM on very close range where LRM´s don´t work anyway... ? it doesn´t counter ecm itself, just gives you the ability to lock a specific target up close... so if - say a 3L - runs next to you and you are targeting another mech 600 meters away, BAP should not help you a bit other than you can target the 3L (or anything else close enough to you) but not your maintarget anymore... for that you´d still need a TAG

correct me if i´m wrong...

Your base radar range, from my last understanding, is 800m. BAP adds 20% range, so does the increased sensor range. Basically, each increase is essentially 200m extra sensor range. With BAP your sensor range increases to 1000m. Here is where I am uncertain, but I believe it all is an increase off the base sensor range of 800m. This means, if one places BAP and ASR (Advanced Sensor Range), their sensors go out to a max of 1200m.

Each of these modules also increase the range that you can detect things while effected by ECM (that little safe band were you can target an ECM mech before their ECM effects you). BAP also will completely shut down an ECM unit in it's range (180m I believe, but this could be wrong). However, even with BAP to counter ECM, you will still have a narrow band of ECM bubble that will effect you before your BAP shuts down their ECM.

BAP only helps against close range ECM units. Anything outside it's range (200-180m or something short) is unaffected, which is were TAG comes in handy more. This is why many of us instead suggest back up weapons to protect one self over taking a BAP, but it is completely up to personal preference. I prefer to have my defense network (allies and a few close range weapons) over a BAP. I'd rather lose a flight of LRMs from ECM making me lose target and tracking, and be able to defend myself from a spider (or other ECM unit) who will otherwise quickly eat up my rear and kill me.

BAP is a choice on LRM based mechs. If you are boating LRMs to the exclusion of all else, then BAP is well worth it. If you are being a bit more balanced and taking a fist full of close range weapons it is an option that probably won't help. My personal opinion is BAP is better for SSRMs than for LRMs, but it depends upon how one plays and uses their LRMs.

Does that help answer each question better?

[Sug]

Thou shalt be completely ineffective except when used against Sug.

[DarkBazerker]

1. Broke that one- somtimes I carry lurm 10 or 15

2. Unbroken

3.Broke that one

4. Broke that one

5.Broke that one

6. Unbroken

7. Broke that one

8. Broke that one

9. Broke that one

10. Broke that one

Only two out of ten. I must be a bad lurm boat. lol

[Bobman]

Victor Morson, on 26 December 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

Two questions: Are you accounting for AMS, and are you accounting for AMS in your path?

If you try to lob LRMs at a target in the path of other AMS equipped 'mechs, they will get shredded; it's one reason repositioning is so important (and thus the controversial speed rule here) to an LRM 'mech. You'll get a fraction of the damage out of them if you try.

Second, are you saving up your missiles to fire in one big salvo against targets with AMS? Pumping mismatched launchers does loads of DPS against non-AMS targets, but you'll get a lot of hit indicators and not a lot of results if you try it against AMS. This can really drag your damage numbers down.

Yup, I'm doing both of those.

In both cases I'm firing against targets who are not filled with AMS. If so, the larger boats with more missiles usually get much more of a punch through. Although, with circumstances, repositioning doesn't help too much because I usually happen to face equal numbers of AMS-plentifuls and non-AMS with either mechs. Could be because I'm doing something wrong though. Because of that, the mech with the most LRMs does the most damage.
My Griffin for example is 10 - 10 - 10, while my hawk was 10 - 10 - 5, @ mismatching.
Battlemaster is 15 - 15 - 10 - 5.

@ Fast, I haven't yet, but I can also throw on a XL400 on the LRM Battlemaster

Edited by Bobman, 27 December 2013 - 10:17 AM.

[Morticoccus]

I picked Raven 3L as my starting mech, lack of LRM boats in PUG make me cry.

[Victor Morson]

Morticoccus, on 29 December 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

I picked Raven 3L as my starting mech, lack of LRM boats in PUG make me cry.

Fortunately the Raven 3L is actually making quite a comeback at higher levels of play, sans LRMs.

It's a very specialized role and you are mostly going to see it in Skirmish: Set it up with 2 ER Large Lasers and ECM, then try to hang with the main group, fading in and out and constantly keeping those lasers in play. Because of the ECM/small target, if you keep darting around the group spraying them out, you can get huge damage.

It's really a niche that's just emerged, but it's a good one. You could have done far worse picking a starting light, even if the one you picked requires a bit of a.. difficult play style.

[1453 R]

Hmm...curious, Victor. Why ER lasers, specifically? It was my thought that competitive players hated ER larges - the extra range was a poor trade-off for the increased heat given that they spread damage more than top-tier bloodletters liked.

I am intrigued. This sounds like something I may wish to look into for me own Ravens. I do miss the little buggers...

[Victor Morson]

1453 R, on 29 December 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

Hmm...curious, Victor. Why ER lasers, specifically? It was my thought that competitive players hated ER larges - the extra range was a poor trade-off for the increased heat given that they spread damage more than top-tier bloodletters liked.

I am intrigued. This sounds like something I may wish to look into for me own Ravens. I do miss the little buggers...

It really is bizarre; it was a pretty hard sell to really convert me to giving them credit. In general, they're bad weapons; 2 isn't that much firepower for a heavier 'mech and anymore gives you serious Ghost Heat. But just 2 on a Raven is manageable and allows a constant barrage of fire.

It's a very strange thing that it works so well, really, but with the rise of Skirmish it's working out to provide teams with ECM coverage that can hang with the main body and contribute to the same kind of engagement ranges without using a DDC. It's quite nasty, and quite a surprise that it's effective.

The trick again is to keep fading in and out. It's VERY hard to hunt down and kill a Raven that's hanging around the ankles of Highlanders and refusing to stay in any place for long, and doubly so when it's got ECM coverage. That's really the ticket of how it works.

Obviously it's not as good at typical light stuff; it's way outclassed engaging other lights, and it's really the worst choice for things like base rescue or capping points. Why you primarily see it in skirmish, or in teams planning on playing Conquest as a straight up fight.