7768 replies to this topic

[El Space Doctor]

I don't think anyone is arguing the fact it's a rip off though. And I, by the way, see where you're coming from. But if you actually think what all this stuff should cost it's completely ridiculous. If this game wasn't part of this latest disaster to hit the gaming scene known as "free" to play, I doubt I'd find this game to be great value even if it included all the packages ever released and the clan package for the standard 50 e / whatever the dollar equivalent for a standard AAA+ title game is. I mean yes, of course I would've rather just paid that upfront for the possibility of buying any unit with the in game currency and the possibility of actually earning enough of it while playing to do so eventually and been happier than with this nonsense. But all this is just getting more and more sad. Yesterday, and today still, we're complaining about DLC's with standard titles and apparently free to play is here to make those scummy DLC's look good. Free to play should be made illegal or come with a warning stamp saying "enjoying this game costs a shit ton and the devs don't manage to pull enough out of their customers they'll never actually finish the game. no refunds."

[Canadian Attack Beaver]

El Space Doctor, on 13 February 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

I don't think anyone is arguing the fact it's a rip off though. And I, by the way, see where you're coming from. But if you actually think what all this stuff should cost it's completely ridiculous. If this game wasn't part of this latest disaster to hit the gaming scene known as "free" to play, I doubt I'd find this game to be great value even if it included all the packages ever released and the clan package for the standard 50 e / whatever the dollar equivalent for a standard AAA+ title game is. I mean yes, of course I would've rather just paid that upfront for the possibility of buying any unit with the in game currency and the possibility of actually earning enough of it while playing to do so eventually and been happier than with this nonsense. But all this is just getting more and more sad. Yesterday, and today still, we're complaining about DLC's with standard titles and apparently free to play is here to make those scummy DLC's look good. Free to play should be made illegal or come with a warning stamp saying "enjoying this game costs a shit ton and the devs don't manage to pull enough out of their customers they'll never actually finish the game. no refunds."

Unfortunately, you are right in regards to MWO and a few other games. F2P seems to be a difficult concept for some developers to manage well.

I've seen F2P done well; let's use Planetside 2 as an example. Subscription specials that allow you to sign up for 50% off the monthly membership if you commit to 3 or more months, Station Cash (their currency) regular sales, every day has a different combination of items on sale, double XP weekends happen a few times a year.... you could spend $50 on that game and get everything you need to have fun for as long as you want.

There are lots more examples of F2P being done poorly; MWO, Star Wars: the Old Republic, Age of Empires Online (which is now cancelled)...

MWO is the only game I've seen where the devs are silly enough to try and raise prices by 50%, 6 months after release, because their virtual items in their virtual universe cost more according to the lore of a sci-fi table top game whose rules they are only roughly following.

[Kell Commander]

To Canadian Attack Beaver and Pondo,

Instead of throwing math and insults at each other about whether or not this is a good or bad deal compared to a previous package, stop and think about what this is actually supposed to accomplish. What this was SUPPOSED to accomplish was creating excitement for upcoming content and; this is the most important part right here, ATTRACT MORE PLAYERS TO THE GAME.

Now that we have pointed out what this package should have accomplished, allow me to quote another post from this forum but with an emphasis on the important part:

verybad, on 12 February 2014 - 05:05 PM, said:

Of course people are free to pay $240.00 for 8 mechs, and I won't judge them on their choice. However I think PGI is reducing the overall pool of players, because less and less players are going to pay the rates that they're asking. I've been a Battlemech addict for like 25 years, but PGI just isn't making me want to play, let alone pay any more than I already have.

Regardless of whether it is a good deal or not, charging prices that the majority of your player base thinks are too high is NOT A SMART BUSINESS PLAN.

Can you both agree on that?

[El Space Doctor]

Kell Commander, on 13 February 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

Regardless of whether it is a good deal or not, charging prices that the majority of your player base thinks are too high is NOT A SMART BUSINESS PLAN.

Can you both agree on that?

Amen. IV. Because he is a cool guy.

[Canadian Attack Beaver]

Kell Commander, on 13 February 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

To Canadian Attack Beaver and Pondo,

Instead of throwing math and insults at each other about whether or not this is a good or bad deal compared to a previous package, stop and think about what this is actually supposed to accomplish. What this was SUPPOSED to accomplish was creating excitement for upcoming content and; this is the most important part right here, ATTRACT MORE PLAYERS TO THE GAME.

Now that we have pointed out what this package should have accomplished, allow me to quote another post from this forum but with an emphasis on the important part:



Regardless of whether it is a good deal or not, charging prices that the majority of your player base thinks are too high is NOT A SMART BUSINESS PLAN.

Can you both agree on that?

I can't speak for him, but I completely agree on that. The posts between Pondo and I were far more heated than the messages we've exchanged.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Canadian Attack Beaver, on 13 February 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

...
I sincerely doubt I’m the only one who is incredulous over this price hike. PGI was quick to add in a la carte options after people were vocal about the Clan announcement. The social rewards counter has been very slowly increasing; it was at 45% for a few weeks and has been at 50% for at least a couple weeks now. People are not buying these packages; there are either a lot of people like you waiting to see, or a lot of people like me shaking their head at the blatant cash grab on the fan favourite Clan Mechs. This isn’t even discussing the fact that there hasn’t been a shred of real content added to this game… ever.

But hey, to each their own. I’m happy if I can show a single person that these packages are not a good value and are, in fact, a complete and utter ripoff.

I think we actually agree on more facts than we disagree on, it's our opinions and objectives that are different ...

- Clan 'mech packages are overpriced (I agree) ... However, where you are adamant that the pricing is "not a good value and a complete ripoff", I think that some people might see them as a good deal. It depends on how much you value the convenience of not having to wait until they are released for MC or C-Bills, and how much you value the amount of time it will take to earn those C-Bills.

I actually feel like I got burned by the Overlord+Saber Phoenix Package ... in the long run, I'll probably only keep the (P) variants and maybe a couple of SHDs and GRFs, and only actually play the SHDs and GRFs. So, for $110, I bought 2-6 useful 'mechs and 8 mechbays. My experience with the Phoenix Package is part of the reason I didn't jump into the clan packages.

Are the Clan Packages a great deal? No, not in the slightest. Are they (probably) cheaper than they will be for MC once released? Almost certainly ... and probably in a better ratio than the Phoenix 'Mechs.

Based on what we know right now, I really want to try out the Nova, Dire Wolf, and Stormcrow, but PGI still has some work to do to demonstrate that they're improving the game and moving forward with Community Warfare before convincing me that those three 'mechs are worth any of my money. Once they pass that hurdle, I'll decide whether my money is worth the convenience of not having to grind approximately 165 Million C-Bills to buy them in-game (based on C-Bill prices from Sarna ... 11M per Nova, 14M per Stormcrow, and 30M per Dire Wolf). That works out to about a thousand games for me ... or much more than a hundred hours of game play (without buying any other new 'mechs).

While our math may be based on slightly different calculations and observations, I'm just trying to provide an objective opinion, where you're on a mission to "show a single person that these packages are not a good value and are, in fact, a complete and utter ripoff."

Each player needs to make their own choice about how much the convenience, exclusivity, and their time is worth to them.

[Molossian Dog]

Math aside. You don´t know how the stuff you buy will be when it is released.

All you have are "plans". And hype.

240$+ is pretty much for hype. In my humble opinion.

[nyknyk]

Hate to be that guy....

So I have hovered around this for about a month now.

Today I took the plunge with the Mad Cat pack. That was in Aussie dollars, which apparently might drop more so I thought I better get in now before it costs any more. Plus that 30 days thing...

I hear all these comments, hell thought the same myself when I saw them up there, $260 for a gold skin. I get that.

I have also dropped a lot of dollars already into this game. Yeah, I am the one with disposable income you hear about, the 10-15% that funds 67% of the game. (cf:http://developers.kongregate.com/blog/building-games-for-the-long-term). I bought into the Founders at gold, cos I wanted all four mechs. Then I found out you could buy them. I then bought into Phonix, kind of cos I wanted to stick it to Harmony Gold, and I was liking the game and I thought, I could do with those mech bays once I have leveled those mechs out.

I guess thats the point. For all its negatives, I still find myself coming back and putting the hours in. Look at my stats, I am not even very good at it. I am a dad, so not a lot of game time. I have a tonne of games on steam that I have not even started, but mech gets a play everynight at the moment.

Sure I wish there was a metagame, that the factions meant something, that we could knock down and set fire to tree's, but the core gameplay for me is really nailing it. It feels like big robots shooting the crap out of each other. Also, very funny community, not so many whiny types in mechs.

So that's what decided me in the end. I enjoy it, I need the mech bays, 100 days premium is ok, the gifts are meh to interesting, i just dont know which yet, and finally it means that I can have a fun fleet of big robots without having to grind em out, cos I quite frankly dont have the time, or the skill, (seriously, check my stats - they make me want to cry).

So sorry for proving their business model. It did hurt to fork out that much money, but in the end your dollar is your vote and I vote to be a mechwarrior.

I just hope they spend my money wisely on investing in this game for the longhaul.

[Tyr4nt]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 13 February 2014 - 07:02 PM, said:

Are they (probably) cheaper than they will be for MC once released? Almost certainly ... and probably in a better ratio than the Phoenix 'Mechs.

You know what? They teach all about that in Psych 101, it's the theory of operant conditioning... I can certainly see the value in paying a premium to get better chassis and specifically the ones you want early. However, debating value in terms of relativity and not taking into account your average consumer IS bad.

The reason the F2P model works for other games is that they don't rely on the top X percentage of customers to generate revenue. They use F2P to get a tens or hundreds of thousands of players and then they use micro transactions with small margins to encourage players to spend, it's not about the individual transaction it's about volume of sales.

When you consider what the price their asking could buy as in what these clan packs are competing with, they are a rip off. Other games, completely different products as well as services Phones, TV's, monthly living expenses etc. If you want a direct comparison, Capcom released Super Street Fighter IV for $39.99 which included a new mode, balancing and 8 new characters.

Is it good value in relation to prices of other mechs and promos in MWO? Probably but that assumes the pricing is fair to begin with. To determine whether the introductory pricing is fair of paid content in one product you have to compare it the pricing of content in competing products.

Personally I won't be buying anything else in MWO until they drastically cut prices and it's clear the only way that will happen is if the community nearly completely stops buying. PGIP will continue to do stuff like this as long as they're generating revenue.

What I would pay for is a permanent account status upgrade that makes it so you can buy mech bays, standard and camo paints and patterns with cbills that also gives you a permanent MC discount on the other stuff. As a casual fan that's about the only other thing I would pay for then I would at least consider buying more hero mechs. I'll be honest I quit playing back in august after the last patch and all the balancing nonsense and 3PV I only recently decided to check the game out again to see if things have improved out of a morbid curiosity and judging by this they haven't, they've gotten worse. I would just assume have a retail game with yearly expansions

[Molossian Dog]

One less reason for them to put resources into core features and more resources in gaudy grab bags. Well done.

[nyknyk]

Molossian Dog, on 14 February 2014 - 03:33 AM, said:

One less reason for them to put resources into core features and more resources in gaudy grab bags. Well done.

I know, and I feel awful.

[Butane9000]

Part of me can't believe this thread is still this active.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Tyr4nt, on 14 February 2014 - 03:31 AM, said:

You know what? They teach all about that in Psych 101, it's the theory of operant conditioning... I can certainly see the value in paying a premium to get better chassis and specifically the ones you want early. However, debating value in terms of relativity and not taking into account your average consumer IS bad.
(and more stuff)

In general, I agree with you. I think they would do much better to cut their prices for everything to about 25% of what they are now. However, I don't have the sales numbers, and have to make decisions based on the prices things actually are, not what I think they should be.

[RG Notch]

nyknyk, on 14 February 2014 - 04:34 AM, said:

I know, and I feel awful.

Yet not awful enough to hold off. See that's the kind of customer they want. People with money burning a hole in their pocket who would give them money up front despite not working on CW until they secured their license, hiring mostly people who work on the stuff they can sell rather than those who work on making the game more better or having an endgame. Why should they bother to work on an end game which doesn't immediately return money when their are folks who will plunk down $240 bucks for the same old same old and promises of CW in another six months.
People say they are doing it wrong, maybe but there seem to be enough people who will pony up more for less. Next pack will probably sell for $300 for the same or less content and oh well, have more money and get to that end game when you get a chance.
I already paid enough for the game they have developed, they need to work on CW before I give them any more. I just wish there were more people who would resist the urge to spend on promises so that maybe they would make more effort on stuff they can't sell for cash quick.
Anyways thanks to those folks who paid for this model, don't complain when it doesn't get better since you voted it ok in the clearest way possible, buying in.

[Rebas Kradd]

RG Notch, on 14 February 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

...not working on CW until they secured their license...

Still not sure why people fault PGI for this.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 14 February 2014 - 12:11 PM.

[Nekki Basara]

nyknyk, on 14 February 2014 - 03:26 AM, said:

I then bought into Phonix, kind of cos I wanted to stick it to Harmony Gold,

Sorry man, Harmony Gold had nothing to do with the mechs in Phoenix. You stuck it to nobody but yourself.

Rebas Kradd, on 14 February 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

Still not sure why people fault PGI for this.

Because CW would have been live for a year+ at that point, so instead of getting the game people paid to support before closed beta we're still waiting? Pretty damn obvious TBH, I don't know how you missed it.

[RG Notch]

Rebas Kradd, on 14 February 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

Still not sure why people fault PGI for this.

So it's ok to lie that you are working on something while you are actually just saying that to sell things so you can secure your license. It's not the not working on it until you have the license, it's the saying you are working on it while you are just trying to secure your license. I guess some folks take accept being lied to better than others.

[Rebas Kradd]

RG Notch, on 14 February 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

So it's ok to lie that you are working on something while you are actually just saying that to sell things so you can secure your license.

What do you really expect them to do, tell everyone they're going into maintenance mode for six months and going nowhere with the game?

They'd lose their playerbase entirely.

Their early design problems (bad UI, CryEngine layer reworking, hitreg delays, launching without internal telemetry tools/non-rendering game mode/test servers) put them in an awkward situation where they obviously had to choose the less damaging of two evils.

I'm not saying I like it, but half-truths like that are a corporate/political reality that pretty much appears everywhere. It shouldn't shock you. Additionally, the fact that they implemented 12v12 during the approach of this downtime suggests that they had optimism for the license renewal, and it was a necessary step for CW.

And frankly, I'd bet that more than half of us would make the same "less damaging" decision if we were in those shoes.


(I am, of course, heavily extrapolating here, because PGI is - as usual - less than transparent when it comes to their thought process on the big stuff. But I think it's an educated guess.)

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 14 February 2014 - 01:23 PM.

[Chronojam]

I think he expected them to deliver on time and to specification.

[Rebas Kradd]

Chronojam, on 14 February 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

I think he expected them to deliver on time and to specification.

Rarity in the development world, especially in the eat-dinner-while-it's-still-cooking variety that is F2P. If you can get that, good for you.

There are already explanations for why they were delayed. If you're going to gripe, gripe about that or don't pretend to be productive in your commentary.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 14 February 2014 - 01:25 PM.