1978 replies to this topic

[Alpha Wulf]

Here's a grand idea PGI.

Why don't you use the lore to your advantage instead of f**king with it as you see fit?

You don't need to nerf clan tech because they already have their own nerfs. Clan 'mechs do not use the C3 targeting computers that IS 'mechs use. That means no sharing or interaction of any kind with targeting data. Coordinating fire immediately become immensely more difficult, even over comms.

This especially nerfs typical LRM usage. No longer can you boat up on LRMs and stand in the back of the group and wait for people to give you targets, while you rain down righteous fire with impunity. You have to get your own targets because you will receive no targeting data from your teammates.

This is just one example, and it already makes a Clan LRM nerf unnecessary.

But we already know PGI won't listen to us, right guys?

[JDH4mm3r]

I completely disagree with the engine being Fixed for clan equip. you should not have to be stuck with a fixed engine.

its like these ford eco boost commercials that are flying around on tv out there... exactly just like that.

kinda like fast engine and low critical slots and light tonnage vs fast engine, or low critical slots or light tonnage.

[Roadbeer]

Jack Gallows, on 14 December 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

Omni-hardpoint idea isn't bad and could actually work well depending on any changes from now and release. Since my original post got censored and deleted I won't be reposting my take on Clan Weaponry (as it was rather lengthy and time consuming to try to reconstruct and post again) and I'll just say that I find it prone to a lot of balance issues and hope you take a much longer look at how you're approaching it.

Expand on that. So far, I like where it's going.
Have you tried Notepad?

[Daggett]

Hmm, i think PGI does themselves no favor by trying to balance clan tech to the power of IS tech.
This is really hard work to do right and in the end it makes clan tech kinda boring because it's just a variation of IS tech instead of something new and really exiting to play with.

I would love to have really powerful clan mechs like they are supposed to be and balance the thing mostly in the matchmaker by giving IS the advantage of numbers. For example let 1-2 clan lance(s) fight 3 IS lances.

This is more close to lore and the identity of the clans, lets players feel more united as a group (real clan vs. IS games instead of a total mixup) and probably leads to some exiting games. And of cause it makes clan tech balancing way more easy because you are not forced to press the naturally overpowered clan-tech into the IS scheme...

[Mead]

Crimson Fenris, on 14 December 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

I've no clue about why PGI makes things more complicated, except to justify the humongous amount of time wasted into useless changes...

How to balance your game, quick and easy mode :

1. visit sarna.net
2. retrieve battle values of all things in the game
3. apply them to the matchmaker
4. enjoy people being satisfied by the natural balance between Clan and IS


ALL things had already been done by generations of gamers of the BT universe. Why in the world wouldn't you simply put some confidence in it and try it ?
Its the simplier way, especially considering such a small team as yours...


Two words : Battle Value

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2991339

I can't imagine that us saying it now is going to help, if they ignored it from the start. But there's not much else to do for the time being...

[AsakuraZero]

DONT mess with the clan weight and crit spacing, they are the CORE of using CLAN TECH! for petes sakes everyone who played MW knows that the trade of usng clan tech was HEAT, all that goody and nice omny tech and clan superiority was thanks of the heat trade off!, i dont remember clearly wher i just was using IS tech because i could place more on the mech because clan tech produced more heat and my build was off (i think it was MW4:mercs)

if you are going to implement clan tech do it right, more heat in some weapons, so we have to trade of raw firepower for more heatsinks.

omni tech give me the agility i need, so hardpoints are not the problem, the problem should be manage the heat from the mech, more heat = less functioning mech, IS tech doesnt suffer from the extra heat and i shouldnt, IS tech should just "work" like Apple stuff.

TL:DR: more heat, dont touch the weight and crits, and just make the clan tech a better IS tech with more heat as trade off

EDIT: yeah it was MW4: mercs you should use this values as part of the game, those games were "OK" on the balance

http://jaimas.livejo...com/120943.html

Edited by AsakuraZero, 14 December 2013 - 03:41 PM.

[JDH4mm3r]

AsakuraZero, on 14 December 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

TL:DR: more heat, dont touch the weight and crits, and just make the clan tech a better IS tech with more heat as trade off

clan tech has always been hotter than IS tech

[Jack Gallows]

JDH4mm3r, on 14 December 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

clan tech has always been hotter than IS tech

Because their heat dissipation ability was superior and they didn't have to care as much.

[Shismar]

Although the approach to Omnimechs is not all bad, the weapon balancing is.

The only feasible solution is a weighted matchmaking where clan tonnage has a significantly higher factor. How this is implemented in detail? There have been many suggestions long before this thread. In the end there will be asymmetric matches, either in numbers or tonnage. As it should be.

P.s.: Or open up clan tech to IS mechs. Nasty but workable.

[Cion]

As a design concept it sounds good or headed in the right direction, so good job there.

Implementation, is the issue with good ideas. Dedicate more time and resources on that department and well be doing a lot better

[Mercer Skye]

Just some ideas, some of which I'm quite sure have been mentioned before;

Battle Values. You want balance, stop with the silly weight limits. BV and being able to adjust it, and then matching by it is a win all around the board.

Fixed sizes for hardpoints on 'mechs. MW4 got a couple things right. As in, there's no way you were putting a PPC in a Jenner's arms, or LRM20s in a Nova Cats torso. Only four 'mechs iirc could fit heavy gauss rifles. So why implement MWO without space limitations for weapon systems? Maybe it would have kept boating AC20s in check, as one of those would probably cause the arm to fall off a Jager.

Omni-points for Clan 'mechs. IS 'mechs are restricted by the hardwired firing system controls (Hardpoints) implemented when manufactured (Granted, most MW games simplified this for quick reworks, and field fitting). Omni-points use a universal set of fire system controls so you can plug in lazors/missiles/boomsticks or whatever else you like. Kind of like how some pick up trucks have four points you can hook up a trailer's electronic input to. So, restrict spaces for weapons on both sides of the board, and give Omnimechs more range of mountings at points that aren't hardwired to only accept one kind of armament/equipment.

Double the dissipation, and create a fixed cap for heat. You didn't want Stalkers rolling around annihilating things with 6 large lasers. Understandable, no one like a nuclear sized dump like that falling on their game night. Ghost Heat either needs to go or drastically tuned down. The fact that you can adjust your heat cap by use of heatsinks (completely NOT how BT ever did it) is silly.

Just a couple of those would make it beyond easy to implement clan 'tech as more powerful, without completely hosing the IS enthusiasts (And to that fella that thinks there should be an actual disparity between Clan and IS matches......no, that's as nice as I can put it).

Now, you might have to adjust the Matchmaker some (Which we already know is kind of necessary). But instead of a 12 man requirement, why not a 12 man cap? No more than 12 people on a side, but use that BV idea to even out the playing field. Team 1 drops with eight people worth 30,000 BV (Or however you implement it), team two fills out with 12 people worth 29,600. Bam, even playing field.

That last one likely won't show up though, as it will give the non-skilled 'blame everything but my inability' types something to point their finger at. And coding, would require some coding.

[AsakuraZero]

Jack Gallows, on 14 December 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

Because their heat dissipation ability was superior and they didn't have to care as much.

iirc on other MW games CLAN was always hotter, on TT they are almost the same.

JDH4mm3r, on 14 December 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

clan tech has always been hotter than IS tech

many weapons have better heat on clan tech, on other games it wasnt like that

[MisterPlanetarian]

Most faithful omnimech introduction so far. TT omnimech restrictions are essential to produce balanced omnimechs if you allow us to change hardpoints around at leisure. Keeping FF/Endo steel locations as fixed will mean we can't get those insane 3xUAC20 loadouts and destroy the metagame.

You will all thank paul when this actually hits, trust me.

Edit: Only blantant disadvantage to this is for light mech pilots who will suffer from signifigant speed disadvantages compared to IS light mechs.

150kph Jenners will top any clan 35 tonner out there with its speed.

Edited by MisterPlanetarian, 14 December 2013 - 03:48 PM.

[Conductor Rarity]

Niko Snow, on 14 December 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Now there wouldn’t be balanced unless it came with a cost. In this case, the ability to customize hardpoints comes with the tabletop OmniMech restrictions. All the configurations of a given OmniMech are based around a base configuration (not to be confused with the Prime configuration). This is the core of the Mech, with all the modular bits stripped out, and what remains cannot be customized at all. These include:

• The engine type and rating
  
• The number and placement of a minimum number of heatsinks
  
• The amount and distribution of armor
  
• The armor type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Ferro-Fibrous
  
• The internal structure type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Endo Steel
  
• Enhancements such as MASC
  
• The occasional weapon or other piece of equipment (e.g. jump jets) that is included as part of the base configuration

Clan mechs DOA.

[Sybreed]

1) Don't touch tonnage

2) Try to find a way to get rid of ghost heat

3) Do that by removing convergence

[Volkodav]

Shismar, on 14 December 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

P.s.: Or open up clan tech to IS mechs. Nasty but workable.

Just later period timeline BT - and will be good work / and no problems, no disgruntled . Less work on revisions of balance and stuff like that.

Edited by Volkodav, 14 December 2013 - 03:50 PM.

[Aim64C]

Jack Gallows, on 14 December 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

Because their heat dissipation ability was superior and they didn't have to care as much.

That is, also, debatable. A number of Clan designs were quite demanding on heat management. Combine with this the fact that IS mechs can get engine DHS at the same critical consumption of Clan mechs relying on engine heat sinks, only - and this would appear to not be as solid of an idea as you seem to think it is.

As I said, before, balancing the Clans for a "Solaris" style match against the IS is just silly.

It's like saying: "Hey, let's drop Navy Seals into the battle of Little Big Horn and balance the Natives and U.S. Army Regulars against them in team matches."

That's a fool's errand. I'll listen to your ideas on balancing it when you return with a hundred yards of flight line and two buckets of steam for the catapults - assuming you've filled out the I.D.10-T form, first. I'm sure Personnel Services can assist you in finding it.

Realistically - the Clans dropped into the Inner Sphere with fragile supply lines and little in the way of support. They were fiercely ideological in the notion of one-on-one combat (a mechanic that could be explored for practical inclusion). They were death machines that shook the IS to its very core.

Little kids were told not to wander too far off or the Clans might get them. Units within the Inner Sphere that -survived- a battle against the Clans were immediately brought back and used as propaganda for the houses to try and salvage public morale.

Only much later, when the IS banded together for the Trial of Annihilation against Smoke Jaguar, did IS mechs and pilots really begin to stand a chance against the Clans in a fair fight.

Before that - it was a miracle to encounter the Clans and not become a bondsman.

[Modo44]

The ideas for basing Clan tech more on pilot skill look cool. The laser solution especially looks nice.

I kind of expected some hardpoints to be locked, and a few omni, but your idea actually sounds more interesting.

Locked armor values on omnimechs sound like a step too far. "Just" 10 points can move a mech one weight class up/down for straight-up fight survivabilty, so it can constitute a big nerf right off the bat.

[NextGame]

My feedback is this: take all the phoenix pack money, and use it contract the future development of this game out to some other more productive studio (pretty much any other studio at this point) so that we actually get stuff like you know, features, introduced rather than disappeared into a black hole never to see the light of day.

[Keyman1848]

Paul,

Thanks for your explanation regarding clan tech and how the development team is exploring the options of adding Clan tech to the game. While your explanation had some good examples, there still are other tech questions. Could you clarify the following:

Will IS mechs be able to mount Clan weapons and equipment?

Will criticals be the same for Endo Steel, XL engines, and FF armor?

Instead of just nerfing clan tech, why not look at buffing some IS tech? Reducing the criticals for IS FF armor and endo steel would be a nice way of providing some flexibility to IS mechs. The hardpoint system already doesn't follow lore so an adjustment here would make a lot of folks happy while not taking away anything from the Clan stuff.

What about Clan Ultra ACs? - people don't like dual AC/20s now. Dual Ultra AC20s will be a challenge to balance.