1978 replies to this topic

[Stormwolf]

Vermaxx, on 15 December 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

SNIP

Snipped your quote due to length.

I think that the biggest problem of MWO is the implementation of the mechlab. Customs are rare in the setting, they can still be created, but this is difficult to pull off. MWO is built like a shooter if anything. There are no factors outside of matches and C-Bills, the setting has so much more to offer here, but PGI is never going to touch on any of that.

People have no goals to work towards, there is only a grind to get the mech(s) you want to create, after that the game becomes stale and boring. Some RPG and management options would have made the game far more interesting, even more so if it was tied into a storyline.

But alas, this game is what it is, a shooter with with $500 mechs.


For me this is the nail in the coffin, I still had a shred of hope left for this game. After this I can only conclude that the Mechwarrior IP is in the wrong hands with PGI.

[Slambot]

Really? All this work so you can sell more content before you fix what you already have? I liked your CW, UI 2.0, new game mode post earlier promising the roll out of these much needed features within the next month. Never mind that you are late by a year or so.

The current weapons systems are not balanced and now you are going to throw the clans in? Realistically, your biggest balance problems are:

-AC's are by far the most powerful weapons in game. They provide impressive, fast, low-heat damage to focused areas of a mech. If, like other titles, you made the autocannons more like large-caliber machine guns (as they are supposed to be) so that like lasers, they spread their damage instead of focusing it all quickly into one spot.... They might just be like most other weapons systems in game.

-Hit detection is still {Scrap}. Really, this should be the first item of business. How you can reliably call ANYTHING balanced without knowing what it will do when the damage is all applied properly is .... silly. Hit detection is especially {Scrap} for SRMs and sometimes for PPCs.

-Lasers either do too much heat or heat sinks dissipate too little, depending on your point of view.

Personally, not like you will listen, but hey, I'm the eternal optimist, to fix the above problems you should (Please, I'm begging here)

1. Fix hit detection
2. Have ACs do the following
-spread their damage like short burst MGs
-Do a reasonable amount of heat per burst. (ie. AC/2 does 1, AC/5 does 3, AC/10 does 5, and AC/20 does 7-9)
-Max effective range needs to be reduced. (triple range bonuses are nuts, double max range is fine with a linear drop off in damage)
3. Increase heat sink dissipation to 1.7-1.8ish so lasers can again be more of an option for anything other than lights
4. Throw out ghost heat as a cumbersome and illogical mechanic.
5. Unpunish pulse lasers. Seriously, the original trade off of tonnage and range for more damage and less heat is viable.

For the clans, really the only balancing that needs be done is to allow for more inner sphere tonnage per match than clans. You are bringing in tonnage limits (supposedly) soon. Start with a 30% advantage to the Inner sphere, and limit Clan electronic warfare options. Now that consumables are viable, you can limit clan access to them. Oh, and calling the clan lrm 20 a streak 20 is silly. Even at point blank range, the LRM will STILL only hit with a percentage of missiles and that will be spread over the entire mech if you do your missile flight patterns correctly. Heck, if you do it right, you could limit damage drastically with missile spread. I run with LRMs occasionally and I'm fairly good at it and still only 35% of my missiles hit on average.

There are so many possibilities to dealing with clans...

[Trucker]

First off, could someone edit this thread to remove all those posts discussing the cost of the clan packs. It makes it difficult to trawl through 10 posts to find that 1 post that is actually on the topic of clan balance.

Secondly, I would like to point out that a lot of people are asking for balance by team size. The problem is that while clan territory is faction specific, clan technology is not. With a lot of it hitting the black market both IS and Clan units can field it. How do you then justify an IS company of 2 lances of 4 and 1 lance of 3 all because 1 person bought a clan mech? A tonnage multiplier is probably a better tool to balance clan mechs.


On to my view of the current proposal for balance;
Weapons/Components
1) I like what has been stated for Lasers (including ghost heat, which despite what people say has gone along way to alleviating alpha strikes)
2)Streak Missiles, I would like to see all streak dmge reduced to 2/missile (IS and Clan). Streak missile behaviour should be changed to give limited tracking. Higher heat for SSRM 4/6 longer reload times.
3)LRMs, Retain tonnage/crit. I like the damage ramp below180 as per your proposal and heat/heat multiplier increase. I would add that LRMs do not lock on or track at all below 180m acting more like current missiles when dumb fired (more SRM than SSRM).
4) Your proposal seems to ignore component health as a balancing tool. I would like to see Clan weapons retain the range/dmge advantage but be a lot more fragile and easier to take out. (e.g. IS LRM at 10 health, Clan LRM at 5 health)
5) Auto-cannons, limit Clan ammo/ton so it is less than IS ammo/ton. Lower health than IS Auto-cannons. Same damage as IS, Higher heat, faster recycle rate. This would make Clan auto-cannons do a lot of damage in a shorter space of time but be heavily limited by heat, ammo and component health. (This could potentially mean a lot of clan mechs with unused ammo due t destroyed weapons....yum!)

Mechs;
1)Balance IS vs Clan mechs by allowing more IS mechs to mount more electronic warfare (e.g. give ECM to less popular mechs like Locust 1V and Awesome 8Q) while only very highly spcialised Clan mechs have it. This, to me, fits in with clan ideology of honourable combat.
2)Again balance by health of components, make it so that IS mechs are rugged and durable while clan mechs are easier to disable/disarm. (This could be where gyro/actuator mechanics would add balance)
3) A hardpoint mechanic that restricts most hardpoint types to those available on the base variant but with some hardpoints being designated as OMNI, allowing any weapon type to be installed. OR..
4) If the above is not preferable, then charge a high standard fee for each module swap to limit customisation (ie. 1.5million C-bills per module...so changing both arms costs 3million c-bills and thus making a fully customised clan mech truly end game)
5) I am fine with fixing armour and engine stats on clan mechs. However, will Clan XL engines be destroyed on 1 side torso destruction or 2? I'd prefer that Clan XL work same as IS XL to avoid obsoleting other Standard Engine Clan mechs.
6) Do not allow IS mechs to equip Clan Heatsinks and vice-versa. Clan Heatsinks, like all clan components have less health than IS components.

My Impression of IS vs Clan at this era is that IS are tough/hard to put down when compared to clan, but are outgunned/ranged. So give the Clans their range and damage advantage but at expense of durability and electronic warfare.

NB: I will also e-mail this to support so that it doesn't get drowned out in the complaints about package costs and UI2.0/CW etc..

Edited by Trucker, 15 December 2013 - 04:38 AM.

[Taifune]

On the balancing issue:

why not make Clan tech overpowered by say a factor of 1.5 and reduce the [total tonnage per drop|number of players per team] accordingly for each player fielding Clan tech? So a full 12 mech Inner Sphere team would face a 8 mech Clan tech team... That would be some kind of automatic representation of the zellbrigen thingy... and would be an easy and fast to tune ballance factor....

think about it...

[Jonny Taco]

"As an example, what would will probably be applied to this weapon is the following:

• Reduce the max range but still give it a slight edge over IS tech. Change from 750m to 660m for a 90m increase over IS tech.
  
• Increase the beam duration of the laser to spread damage over more time.
  
• Make the Heat Scale slightly higher than the IS version."

I actually really like this approach. Overall the Weapon is better do to it being lighter, smaller, and having a modest amount more range. The additional damage and heat, if I understand this correctly, is applied over the slightly longer duration. So over the short term, the IS ER laser could be doing the same damage it's beam just cuts out sooner thus the clan version will do more damage over its total beam duration and of course produce slightly more heat over this period as well..

Edited by lartfor, 15 December 2013 - 04:44 AM.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

GalaxyBluestar, on 14 December 2013 - 11:06 PM, said:

i have grab deal before content clouding over my ettiqute sorry if i can't post in sweet tones but reading what paul's- david B's said looks like taking a meat clever to dentestry. they need to THOROUGHLY test these restrictions before release. the delay is okay they'll extend the grab deals and the CW soons anyways.

No worries. Couple things about me: first off, I am above all things honest and fair about myself (including personal hypocrisy and failures) but moreso in my dealings with all - even with people in whom I have little respect like Paul. I will admit people in whom I have no respect such as Russ - well, that's a little more difficult even under good circumstances. Which, clearly, no one here is working under, customer-side at least.

Secondly, and this is most critical - I no longer really care a whole lot. Know why? Simple. Either MW:O will be like WoT or SimCity or any of another of other games that had disastrous releases and yet managed to survive that and prosper after. And that's fine.

Or. It won't. And that's fine, too. Why? Because at that point there is no longer ANYTHING stopping MW:LL from updating anymore.

Keep that in mind always - even if you can't be nice, you can at least smile at people like this because either they will finally figure out how to succeed, or they will die and in so doing clear the path for people better suited to success.

Either way, we win.

Edited by Sir Roland MXIII, 15 December 2013 - 04:42 AM.

[Wolfhound3025]

As long the Clan-Tech will be lighter, smaler and have more range the IS will be outgunned.

[Wolf Clearwater]

This:
It cannot be said enough. PGI you are missing the point. Nobody is mad at the idea of the clans. Your players are angry that there is only half a game and you are demanding more money. Even your die hard supporters are now suspicious that this is a cash grab and run deal. Heck, I encouraged my friends to purchase Phoenix and Saber packages - why? Because I was presented as funding Community Warfare. YOU. HAVE. LOST. OUR. TRUST. It can only be earned back, and like any other lost trust type of situation, it will require great effort on your part.

I will say it again:

PGI if you are trying to drive off your current base of players who are willing to support the game: good job.
I buy MC on a regular basis, I pay money to support a game I believe(d) in.
All this listed reason for anger are good.
NO:
Community Warfare
UI 2.0
In fact, all the stuff from Phoenix still has not been implemented.

Fix this before the rage on this forum says it all.

EPIC FAIL

Edited by Wolf87535, 15 December 2013 - 04:53 AM.

[Gereinath Hunter]

LoneUnknown, on 15 December 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

Russ, Paul, there is so much fail in this it is difficult to know where to start.

You are trying to balance everything within a fishbowl. That is, your vision of the game is limited to nothing more then 12 vs 12 deathmatches, and you feel you must balance all weapons, mechs, and mechanics around this rather limited scope.

But you ignore the metagame. You removed repair and rearm. You refuse to consider any other type of units (armored vehicles, turrets, infantry, installations). You haven't figured out community warfare or planetary siege/control. No market system, no real supply and demand of arms... purchasing and maintaining the most powerful mech is simply a matter of grinding long enough (or handing over RL cash). Game modes lack imagination or any kind of objectives outside of deathmatching and simple capture.

You have ignored and eliminated the very elements of the Battletech universe which create gameplay balance between Inner sphere and clans, and brought the potential of a rich, well made Mechwarrior simulator to being nothing more then a generic 3rd person **** with robots.

Clan technology is SUPPOSED to be more powerful. Period. No balancing required. Why? Because of all the other elements that brought balance. The inner sphere's numerical advantage. The limitations of clan ritualism and honor based tactics. Entrenched home court advantage of a practicality minded, battle-hardened inner sphere vs invading, honor dueling test tube supermen.

By balancing factors OUTSIDE of the match, you do not have to create all these goofy ways of balancing clan gear.

Community warfare and planetary control should have been in place before you even thought about releasing clan tech. Clan vs Inner Sphere should exclusively be part of metagame, not simple matchmaking.

Joining a faction should have an impact on what parts and mechs you have available to you, as well as what missions you can take. Clan players should actually have to invade planets, and in a logical fashion (no jumping straight to Terra). Imagine a mechanic where clan players could "bid" to use the least amount of tonnage possible on a mission, for higher reward. We do not have to always see 12 clan mechs vs 12 inner sphere mechs if you use your imagination a bit.

What about the shelved dropship mode? Give the inner sphere players each more then one mech to fight off the technologically superior clan invaders,

Turrets? Installations? Planetary defenses that can be purchased and upgraded (through CW metagame) which will give inner sphere players some tactical AI defense to add to their arsenals and even things out.

And these are ideas just off the top of my head. Get your heads out of the fishbowl, or use all that money from your new cash grab to hire someone with an imagination.

You guys should have let the Mechwarrior: Living Legends team continue on. They had real vision for how to create a great game in the battletech UNIVERSE. You guys are just ******* the fans off.

Essentially this. Clans shouldn't have even been uttered by the design team until Community Warfare and the other game modes were already implemented and most players had explored that content. The fact that they were suggests that the design team's attention has been turned away from resolving or expanding upon some of the current issues and interests already on the table and that general interest is getting harder to maintain. The unfortunate implication therein is that said issues are going to be left where they are in lieu of rapid expansion into what are essentially 'expansion packs' to an unfinished game.

What becomes painfully obvious to everyone involved, not just players, is that so much time has been burned on the current, (extraordinarily limited) scope of what Battletech and Mechwarrior is as a game that it would be impossible for those producing and creating it to go back and redesign entire systems to suit what players actually want or things actually relating to Battletech and Mechwarrior in general. Repair and rearm, monetary costs of maintaining your 'Mechs, drop limitations; options that began to get explored and then were dropped due to the difficulty involved in properly implementing them in this new framework. The mention of future game modes, to include siege modes, shows the promise of some of these things being possibly reconsidered or expounded upon, but the mistake of trying to do too much too quickly has already been made; the announcement and presentation of the Clan Invasion is a can of worms you were not prepared to open.

The original post should not have been made and demonstrates in spades exactly why. The uncertainty at which the information was presented suggests a roughly penned outline but an internalized focus on "balancing around the current state of affairs," of which is not what the core of MWO seemed to have been planned to be from the get-go, especially in light of the Community Warfare update being released. The failure to deliver on the lofty ambitions this project began with in a timely fashion is becoming a severe detriment to its progression as a whole and this announcement in itself is proof enough that said failure hasn't concluded.

At this point even opening the projected introductions of clan tech is a moot point, as the systems you've suggested can't coexist with the current ones without intense "growing pains" or even breaking current systems altogether when trying to cram the old lore into the newly rigged business model. Even over the course of development they will still shift considerably to where the suggestions in this thread would have to be updated alongside them, and there isn't nearly enough information provided to even get any sound "feedback" from the community.

Unless this thread was a decoy because you knew the first announcement and the initial balance changes were going to receive mass negative feedback regardless of what was put in it. In which case: Congratulations, something planned finally came to its intended fruition. It's just unfortunate that said ends was simply ******* off the community.

-Grey

[Bad Andy]

I don't believe many people will still be playing this game come next summer

[Elizander]

With regards to the customization of Omnimechs, how about allowing players to make quick changes pre-drop once they know the map? IS guys will still have to pick which mech.

For the record I am against any solution that will change weight and critical slot numbers for any weapon because that would mess up construction rules too badly.

Edited by Elizander, 15 December 2013 - 05:03 AM.

[Samziel]

Tolkien, on 14 December 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

I would love to believe anything said at this point.... I really would.... but the management seems out of touch.



Maybe the management doesn't actually know what's in the game? That's the only conclusion I can think of when Russ ignores the missing Phoenix badges and the unimplemented loyalty points. Or maybe it's just cognitive dissonance to prevent him from thinking himself dishonest?

What assurances to be have that clans won't turn out the same way as phoenix with targeting computer being another command console? In the game for what.... 15 months now with no function?

[Redacted]

Loyalty point bonus was delivered. They said you will gain LP all the time, but you don't get to see or use them before CW.

[Crimson Angel]

Good info, thanks for the update Paul (not being sarcastic).

Edited by Crimson Angel, 15 December 2013 - 05:11 AM.

[Tolkien]

Samziel, on 15 December 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

Loyalty point bonus was delivered. They said you will gain LP all the time, but you don't get to see or use them before CW.

see here:

Quote

A note on Loyalty Points

While the functionality for rewarding LP is currently in the game, players are not able to use or control which faction they will earn LP for. We are actively building the features associated with earning and using LP. Loyalty Points will make their debut as part of Phase 1 of our CW delivery. See below for more information.

If we actually were building loyalty points they wouldn't still be building the features associated with earning them.

They *might* back fill them to past matches later, but they haven't actually said that is the case. Even if they did say that was the case, they can just change their position on the matter later.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Gereinath Hunter, on 15 December 2013 - 04:56 AM, said:

Essentially this. Clans shouldn't have even been uttered by the design team until Community Warfare and the other game modes were already implemented and most players had explored that content.
-Grey

Not just replying to you Grey but really in general - folks here do need to keep in mind that Paul himself did recently confirm that after two plus years of work on this game the one core compenent that everyone wanted, Community Warfare, is in fact still as of now and continuing into next year, VAPORWARE.

As in, it has not had a single speck of code written yet. Period.

Get yerselves worked up about the Clam Grab Packs all you want, but the elephant in the room seems so far to have been missed and / or ignored - Community Warfare has been claimed to be almost ready for over a year and here we have them recently confirm that it does not in fact exist at all, and never has.

Short Version... I honestly think you guys are rioting over the WRONG THING.

[Nihtgenga]

My thoughts on reasonable Clan Tech inclusion possibility are centered around one premise:

The basic weaponry imbalances willingly introduced for the current IS equipment needs to be reviewed and adapted.

Don't worry, I can beef that up with reasoning and proposals. First, reasons for coming to that conclusion from looking at the current systems:

- Streaks, #1:

They are implemented as fire-and-forget, which they shouldn't be. This created an imbalance even to SRM/A, which PGI chose to reduce by a forced auto-targeting of different mech sections. This does help in terms of distributing the damage done, but is no remedy for the inherent "pseudo-aimbot". This is scaled up with Clan Tech, since they can sport much bigger launchers: Clan Streak-heavy builds just need to have enough ammo, then they will shred down easily light to medium mechs without need of much piloting skill.

- Streaks, #2:

Due to the PGI-enforced targeting spread, the damage that can be done by deliberately targeting (S)SRMs to weak spots on an enemy mech is reduced. This creates a disadvantage especially for light and/or IS mechs, which is hampering them in finishing off enemy mechs of higher tonnage.

- SRM vs. SRM w/Artemis-IV:

Different to LRMs, Artemis-IV is not helping anything in aiming, if it comes to SRMs. The only advantage of the SRM/A is their tighter missile spread. This makes it to a partly worse alternative to the lighter and cheaper Streak, which even can be combined with Standard-LRMs; a choice not given for Artemis-IV.

- UAC/x:

Currently, the UAC/5 is limited in being dominant over AC/5 by their jamming only. As this limiting factor will not be present in Clan Tech, linking AC/x to UAC/x balancing by that factor alone will not be usable, as it will naturally lead to imbalances or severe distortions either between AC and UAC, or between IS and Clan.

- LB/X:

Rarely used, the LB/X series should not be a close-range-only weapon against mostly light and medium mechs, as it is currently implemented. Extrapolating the cLB/X-5 and -2, these will have a different behaviour and lead to a "spamming" meta, keeping the enemy constantly visually impaired. With a fixed spread similar to the LB/X-10, the smaller versions become irrelevant aside of that meta (damage distribution too large), and with a fixed spread relative to their damage per shot the LB/X-20 will have the problem that the spread of the LB/X-10 currently is already so large that most of the LB/X-20 pellets would not hit even with good aiming hit the enemy.

- The heat system:

As SHS vs. DHS balancing is already an unsolved problem (close to no one uses SHS), this will not get lessened by introduction of the cDHS variants. Due to the clan versions being technologically advanced, already this will make a huge advantage on the battlefield - and it will be squared by the PGI-own "ghost heat" approach, which uses heat as a penalty. The penalty factor for clan mechs therefore would be always less than for their IS counterparts.

- Community warfare:

As the stories go, the IS countered the Clan Tech superiority mostly by tonnnage/numbers and tatctics. Since MWO currently does only have TAG/NARC-Bonuses in this field, any possible approach in using smart tactics is -to be polite- "severely limited".

- Matchmaker:

Current matchmaking is centered on balancing out (roughly) equal tech players. As clan tech will change this balance, the matchmaker will not be usable in its current form to deal with that. Leaving it like it is will necessarily not being able to recreate the "Bidding" of the clans, resulting in smaller/lighter clan teams.


In a nutshell, any implementation of clan tech into this system will create either clans not being like clans, but being a mostly visually different IS variant, or resulting in a general advantage for the clans.






So much for my perspective, this would be my proposals for improvement:

- Streaks and Artemis-IV:


Both systems should get a HUD marking vector depicting an aimpoint for the SRMs, which is based on the current speed and heading of the targeted mech. Artemis-IV can be fired indepently of this aimpoint, and has a tighter spread. This increases the possibility for targeting selected spots on enemies and gives an aiming advance, like the system should according to canon. Streaks will have a reticle at the end of the marking vector, and can only be fired when the launcher reticle is over/in the vector reticle and target is within SRM range (this resembles the canon "fires only when able to hit"-feature). Their spread is standard SRM spread.

This will keep the chance to counter Streaks partly by ECM (impaires firing) but require pilot skill to hit for every SRM type, solving the "aimbot"-dilemma. Streak-Boats will be hampered by the fact that the pilot needs to manage different aimpoints of torso and arm mounted Streaks and can not fire at large off-angles like at the moment.

- UAC/x:

AC and UAC should be differentiated additionally by a cone-of-fire mechanic (MG already has it). By giving the UACs bigger COF factor than the ACs, they can be adjusted to not be too superior.

- LB/X:

Like ACs, also the LB/X should have COF in form of pellet spread. This spread should have a random, not a predefined pellet distribution. Additionally, there could be a switch key, to allow ammo selection between pellets and slugs. Slugs from LB/X should have much bigger COF than an equivalent AC.

- The heat system:

The complete system needs to be reworked with a different calculation. May be the SHS could have a higher heat capacity factor than DHS. This would result in a different playstyle: SHS allow to put out more salvos until overheat, but then need much more dissipation time, while DHS cool down faster, but can not buffer that much heat, resulting in shorter, but more frequent firing cycles.

Here I have to admit that I only have a very raw concept of how to do it.

- Community warfare:

CW tech should be developed and introduced. Examples: Targeting computer could allow a targeting vector like mentioned on the SRMs (based on selected weapon group), an additional zoom level and faster LRM locks. C³ should be implemented for target data sharing. This would start the CW, as it would foster cooperation and diversificaiton in special roles on the battlefield. There are numerous things in Battletech, which could be implemented, it just needs to be done.

- Matchmaker:

To be able to cope with clan tech, there should be a special "clan war" mode. I this mode, one side plays IS, one Clan. Clan side will have a diminishing factor applied to their weight and ELO, so that less and/or lighter clan mech groups will fight a standard 12-player IS team.
This might be extended to also allow mixed teams (merc units, which use salvaged clan tech).

As soon as there is a real pre-match lounge, even a "Bidding" match can be offered, in which a player can register as leader (which will do bidding) or low-rank. Being leader will apply a factor on both gains and losses for the player.



These are my "two cents". Hope you didn't mind the long reading.

[Johnw007]

I think that the overall weapons/heat balance needs looking at. I seem to recall that Heat sinks still don't work as effectively as they do in tabletop. Change this so that Inner Sphere mechs run a little cooler and overheat rarely, while Clan mechs overheat at about the rate they do now.

This makes the Clanners great at Alpha strikes while IS mechs are more about fire and maneuver give more damage over time.

The skill in using clans becomes about only using the right weapons for the task at hand, and fighting with the range advantage.

[BSK]

Here is my attempt to balance the IS vs Clan technology. You force the Batchall of the Clans in the matches. If any Clan pilot damages an enemy he has to focus on that enemy until that one or himself is destroyed. If he hits anyone else this will either reduce his credits drastically or he will get random damage or he will get malfunctions in his weapons, maybe even power down.

[Nihtgenga]

There is much more potential than just playing with the heat system. I don't see any hindrance in leaving clan tech completely superior, as long as this is reflected in the reduction ratio in the matchmaker. Having superiour technology then is equaled by IS strength in numbers, requiring the famous clan fighting skill to prevail on the battlefield.
Diversification then adds to a unique experience, e.g. Gauss-Rifles being prone to be deactivated by PPC hits like ECM or other "quirks" that can be added to differentiate roles and sides.

BSK, on 15 December 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

Here is my attempt to balance the IS vs Clan technology. You force the Batchall of the Clans in the matches. If any Clan pilot damages an enemy he has to focus on that enemy until that one or himself is destroyed. If he hits anyone else this will either reduce his credits drastically or he will get random damage or he will get malfunctions in his weapons, maybe even power down.

I wouldn't see it THAT strict and force that in every match, but this would then be another nice playing mode.

[King Arthur IV]

i am curious how these feed back thread work.

If the Silent majority stay silent, who's feed back are you listening to?!?!