1978 replies to this topic

[Alienfreak]

Marcus Tanner, on 07 January 2014 - 06:47 PM, said:

Nothing. Clan weapons are still strictly better 100 years later in the canon timeline.

Inner Sphere forces began using clan tech in some places, but the process of switching over the manufacturing facilities seems to be glacial in the background. It takes longer for Inner Sphere techs to reverse engineer clan tech and re-tool facilities than it did to invent clan tech in the first place.

That is plain wrong. Clans did not invent their tech out of nothing. It is improved SLDF tech. And it did take them 260 years to do that. Much of that stuff even still is SLDF tech.

[Kayne Warden]

Wolfways, on 08 January 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

I would obey clan rules. I'd be happy with getting no bonus/C-Bills/honour/whatever for breaking them

Clan rules apply only as long as the IS warriors obey them too. As soon as two IS mechs shoot one clanner, that's it. And you know, how fast that would happen.

[Roland]

Jack Warde, on 08 January 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

Well, about clans crushing IS... that was before IS used their own versions of clan tech. We're already doing this: ER Lasers, ER PPC and stuff like that. Not quite as good as original clan weapons, but much closer than the original stuff.

The clantech absolutely obliterates 3050 era IS tech. It's not even remotely close. I can build a madcat which has two ERPPC's, 100 LRM's (yes, 100), fully armored and runs at 75kph.

Consider that... A mech that is essentially better armed than any assault mech in the game, that can deliver alpha strikes of 130.,, and can move at 75. Hell, I used to run this mech in MW4.

It's not until years further down the timeline that the IS starts to actually develop its own version of Omnitech, with mechs like the Thanatos, Uziel, etc. And even then, their tech is still pretty much inferior. While they had some shining examples of awesome weapons, like the light gauss, most of their weapons were still weak compared to the clan version.

Some of the biggest advantages of the clan stuff was that it didn't just weigh less, and sometimes do more damage, but it often took up less space... like Clan DHS only taking two slots, or clan endosteel only taking 7. Consider that... Clan endosteel frees up 7 slots.. and since the DHS are smaller, that lets you bring an additional 3 DHS, and STILL have a free slot left over.

And then you get into the Clan LRM's... A huge weight advantage over IS LRM's, while having no minimum range. So that MadCat I described above? Not only can it effectively obliterate your mech from range... But it can do exactly the same to you even if you manage to get right up in its face. It can dump 130 damage onto you from ANY range.

Clan tech can't effectively be balanced against 3050 IS tech. It wasn't even really designed to be... it was designed to get people to migrate from IS to clan tech, and buy new sourcebooks for battletech. It designed to be tech inflation.

Even in the fluff, the clans basically obliterated everyone in the IS, constantly, in 3050. Only with huge numerical advantages, and secretly preserved star-league era lostech that Comstar had stashed away, were the IS forces able to make a stand on Tukayid... and even in THAT case, the one clan that used their technology in a non-jackass way (Clan Wolf) still beat the IS and accomplished their objectives.

I'm not holding out a lot of hope for the clantech implementation by PGI, but I'm also of the opinion that clantech really shouldn't have been introduced at all until way in the future... since it's impossible to balance with IS tech, and effectively just means that you are gonna throw out your old stuff and have to buy new stuff.

[wanderer]

Roland, on 08 January 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:

Well, honestly, even with numbers advantages in TT, the clans still crush the IS.... They had to introduce additional limitations, like clan honor rules. You can't coordinate fire, etc.

In an actual game, you can't really implement all that stuff... so the clans end up just being smurf tech.

Actually, as someone who's played TT for years- this ain't even remotely close to true. Most Clan players don't even use the honor system, and indeed, later-era Clan units say "F this, just shoot things".

Basically, the disadvantage in numerical terms works like this:

Say you're a Clan Star (5 'Mechs) and I'm a 2-lance IS group (8 'Mechs). I'm smart enough to use cover and don't run straight at you like some kind of mouthbreathing {Dezgra} across open terrain.

I get into my normal firing range. You can only carry so much armor per 'Mech, regardless of shiny weaponry.

You vaporize one of my 'Mechs. I kill one of yours. You're down 20% of your firepower in a single exchange. In a straight brawl, the general result is the Clanner runs out of 'Mechs first if the IS player doesn't flinch or fail to keep focusing fire. I have more 'Mechs to get back and flank shots on you and can still cover my own, especially if I play smart. Likewise, with a smaller force anyone going stupid has a magnified effect on a smaller force. One of your Clanners got caught between cover and sniped? There went a huge chunk of your force, splattering it's cockpit all over the hill behind it. Went "SQUIRREL!" and chased that Jenner around the corner into two of it's mates packing AC/20's? That was worth two kills in an ordinary game right there, and we know what losing two 'Mechs right off in a match does.

In MWO terms, the extended reach on weapons makes the Clan range advantage even less so in most cases. Think about how rough it is being down three 'Mechs to start vs. your opponent, even if you're similar in weight. That's what numerical disadvantage does for making Clan units have a challenge vs. IS ones.

[wanderer]

Roland, on 08 January 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

Even in the fluff, the clans basically obliterated everyone in the IS, constantly, in 3050. Only with huge numerical advantages, and secretly preserved star-league era lostech that Comstar had stashed away, were the IS forces able to make a stand on Tukayid... and even in THAT case, the one clan that used their technology in a non-jackass way (Clan Wolf) still beat the IS and accomplished their objectives.

I'm not holding out a lot of hope for the clantech implementation by PGI, but I'm also of the opinion that clantech really shouldn't have been introduced at all until way in the future... since it's impossible to balance with IS tech, and effectively just means that you are gonna throw out your old stuff and have to buy new stuff.

Note that in 3050, most IS units were still using 3025-era technology, making them relatively easy roadkill.

MWO is much closer to the Tukayyid era, where Clan units were facing off against opponents equipped with League-era technology vs. the downgraded stuff they have from pre-3039 production. Most of the "rush for Terra" was fought against units that were Succession-War era technology, a bit like having WWII tanks facing off against Vietnam-era armor.

Clan units that were brought to ground against numerically superior opponents with League-era tech that were willing to drown the opponent in bodies went down and went down hard. That most of the well-equipped units were veteran or elites only made this worse, "historically" speaking.

[Taemien]

Alexandrix, on 08 January 2014 - 04:30 AM, said:

I think it's time we give up on mwo adhering to anything relating to bt/mw "facts"

That boat has sailed.

Then clan tech doesn't need to be better than IS tech.

Thank you.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Clan LRMs:

Unlockable <180 meters but still deal damage if dumbfired
and/or
Chance to deal feedback damage (critical hit) to the launcher or mech component if fired <180 m
and/or
Unable to adjust course <180 m (flightpath related--like current LRMs can only change course at key points in the flight path)
and/or
Reduced flight speed
and/or
Wider spread
and/or
Much slower reload time
and/or
Less weapon health

WIth the right combinations of these variables, there is no reason to change the base stats.

Clan ERPPCs

Requires variable charge up to desync with other weapons and require good judgement to use well
-Tap to fire immediately at 10 damage (like IS)
-Hold longer for linearly increased damage up to [15] if held up to [2] seconds or whatever balance dictates (Variation on the charge up mechanic in MechAssault which should add flavor, but requires more skill and the right opportunities to use well)
Probably longer recycle time and more heat
Slower projectile speed?

These are just a couple ideas. I think it might be good to make clan tech more fragile than IS tech if it is more powerful. I do think it should have a slight edge over IS tech, but it should feel like the difference between a PPC and an ERPPC. The ERPPC is an upgrade, but with disadvantages so both are useful.

[Roland]

wanderer, on 08 January 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

Actually, as someone who's played TT for years- this ain't even remotely close to true. Most Clan players don't even use the honor system, and indeed, later-era Clan units say "F this, just shoot things".

Yeah, and in those games Clan tech basically just obliterates level 1 IS tech.

Quote

Basically, the disadvantage in numerical terms works like this:


Say you're a Clan Star (5 'Mechs) and I'm a 2-lance IS group (8 'Mechs). I'm smart enough to use cover and don't run straight at you like some kind of mouthbreathing {Dezgra} across open terrain.

The extra 3 mechs honestly don't matter much in practice though. If played well, the clan star will generally win.
Honestly, if you played battletech... do you seriously think that clan tech was balanced? Because even the FASA guys said it wasn't.

Quote

I get into my normal firing range. You can only carry so much armor per 'Mech, regardless of shiny weaponry.

Yeah, but my mechs are able to obliterate your mechs, because their massive firepower, coupled with the clan targeting computer, coupled with clan pilots, basically means that you get obliterated and I don't.

Quote

You vaporize one of my 'Mechs. I kill one of yours.

But that's not what happens.
Each of my mechs has more than twice the firepower of yours, ton for ton. I'm killing your mechs way faster than you can kill mine.

You're acting like the IS gets a numerical advantage, but the clans tech advantage doesn't exist and you can kill clan mechs as fast as they kill your IS mechs.. That's absolutely not the case.

In theory, at some point a numerical advantage would outweigh the clan advantage, but it's not at 5 vs. 8... 5 clan mechs have no trouble mopping the floor with 8 3050 era IS mechs.

[Alexandrix]

Taemien, on 08 January 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

Then clan tech doesn't need to be better than IS tech.

Thank you.

That's.....pretty much exactly what I just said.

But,you managed to ignore the rest of my post about the only advantage of an omnimech being completely negated by MWO's open customization on battlemechs

If everything is going to be equal/balanced,then allow omni's the same level of customization as normal IS battlemechs.Either that,or slap a huge cbill fee,and a week long timer to change out the engine or skeletal structure of a battlemech,to simulate the battlemech going back to the factory for said refit.see how well that goes over.

Edited by Alexandrix, 08 January 2014 - 12:01 PM.

[Wolfways]

Roland, on 08 January 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

But that's not what happens.
Each of my mechs has more than twice the firepower of yours, ton for ton. I'm killing your mechs way faster than you can kill mine.

Not in MWO. The severe heat system means that even current IS mechs (using IS weapons with lower heat generation than clan weapons) generally cannot fire all their weapons all the time. With higher heat generation clan weapons will be able to fire even less often.
Clan mechs will carry more weapons (at least stock mechs anyway) but that won't matter when you can't use them all without overheating.

[wanderer]

Roland, on 08 January 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Yeah, and in those games Clan tech basically just obliterates level 1 IS tech.


The extra 3 mechs honestly don't matter much in practice though. If played well, the clan star will generally win.
Honestly, if you played battletech... do you seriously think that clan tech was balanced? Because even the FASA guys said it wasn't.

1v1? Not at all. 8v5? Sure is. To give you an idea, I was playing with TRO 2750 when THAT was the new tech. I was at Origins 91 when Nystul was showing off the new shiny Solaris rules, and my TRO 3050 was likely still warm when I snatched it off the presses. I've played both sides, Clan and IS, and had to rub more than one player's nose in just that assumption. I've played tabletop since the 1980's. I was playing Mechwarrior online when it was GEnie and you paid -by the hour-.

It was that same kind of no-brains assumption that put MechForce tournament plaques on my wall, too. One on one, Clan tech is superior. It doesn't matter how good your guns are when your opponent fooled you into trying to take the shots on 10's while the hidden unit behind them is putting an alpha in your back on 4's. MWO is closer to double-blind rules, and when you can't see everything, that numerical advantage gets even sweeter.

Quote

Yeah, but my mechs are able to obliterate your mechs, because their massive firepower, coupled with the clan targeting computer, coupled with clan pilots, basically means that you get obliterated and I don't.

There's this little thing called "Guardian ECM". You should try it, hoses targeting computers like magic. (Incidentally, Clan pulse lasers haven't worked with targeting computers for years now- the classic "Clan Cheese"). Also, the joys of the BV system. Please, put out your great pilots with ultra-tech. I get two 'Mechs that can plow it under working together with average IS skills for the same price- and in the average exchange, if you kill one and I kill you anyway, I'm up a 'Mech to go team up on the next. And that snowballs.

Quote

But that's not what happens.
Each of my mechs has more than twice the firepower of yours, ton for ton. I'm killing your mechs way faster than you can kill mine.

3025, sure. 3050 era...nope. It's (oddly enough) about a 5:8 ratio- that is, for every five points I'm delivering, you're dealing 7-8 back. Classic example being the Clan ER medium vs the IS standard medium - the CERML hits for 7 (and 5 heat), the IS laser for 5 (and 3 heat). Boated at close range, it actually comes out about equal, but I'm being good and factoring in the slightly better gunnery and range advantage.

My favorite example of this is the Black Hawk Prime, a Clan laserboat vs the Komodo, the IS knockoff.

The Prime costs 2663 BV to field. A Komodo is 1533. The general result of the IS 'Mech and whatever you spent the extra BV on attacking the Black Hawk is a scrapped Clanner, one dead or seriously damaged IS 'Mech, and the IS player is still standing there with a functional 'Mech after it's all said and done.

Last I checked, the side with no functional units is losing.

Quote

You're acting like the IS gets a numerical advantage, but the clans tech advantage doesn't exist and you can kill clan mechs as fast as they kill your IS mechs.. That's absolutely not the case.

Put two IS 'Mechs on a Clanner of similar weight. I'll turn the Clanner into scrap metal. Put two IS 'Mechs by BV against a Clanner of similar BV. I'll have good odds of smoking HIM, too and the larger the force, the higher my odds are of trapping, focus-firing, and obliterating a Clan 'Mech in the process of taking my own hits.

Any IS player that faces Clanners 1-on-1 is playing straight into the way Clan 'Mechs were designed. Individually, they are, will be, and completely outdo a single opponent using 3025-era tech and in most cases have a serious advantage over a 3050-era IS machine as well.

The point is that no IS team should ever be facing that to start with, and if they do not allow the Clan player to engage in 1v1, they will win as often or more often than they lose, assuming (in TT) a BV-equivalent force or in MWO, a numerically superior one of similar tonnages using the usual 3050-era tech.

Quote

In theory, at some point a numerical advantage would outweigh the clan advantage, but it's not at 5 vs. 8... 5 clan mechs have no trouble mopping the floor with 8 3050 era IS mechs.

Last time I did that was pulling out some old Unseen models in TT, two lances of 3050-tech IS 'Mechs vs. a star of Clanners. We all had heavies and since he wanted to use tonnage, that's how we did it.

The first turn of firing, I put 72 LRMs into a Timber Wolf from a trio of Archers, plus a pair of PPC's from the Warhammer it was after. It fell over after ripping up the Warhammer. The second turn it couldn't make cover. It died. So did my Warhammer helping finish it off as the rest of the Star went after the only clean target. 7v4.

Third turn, the remaining four went after the three Archers that dropped the Timber Wolf. They ran into two Jagermech-DG on the way. They got one of the Jagers. I added the other Timber Wolf to the kill pile from quad Gauss hits plus another LRM hosing. 6v3.

Fourth turn, I ran an Ostsol-5M into their line of fire, which also blocked the clear path they had to the Archers. They killed the other Jager. I stopped rolling damage hits on the Summoner after the head was gone, but I had another 3-4 LRM rolls after that- but it was 5v2.

I lost two Archers over the next seven turns. He lost, period and I walked off a cooked but still fully functioning Archer, a slightly dinged Ostsol, and the second Ostsol that made an end run and double-team backshotted his Mad Dog while it was busy pummeling an Archer to death with it's lasers and missiles.

So yes, given similar tonnage and 3050 tech, numerical advantage crushes Clan technology in a straight brawl. Quite simply, Clanners can dish it out but defensively, they still die just as fast to incoming fire- and go into CLG far faster due to numerical disadvantage and the higher focus on each individual portion of the unit, which in turn yields higher unit degradation due to each dead Clanner taking a disproportionately larger chunk of firepower out of the equation. If the Clanner is smart and refuses to engage in a direct fight, the odds of a win improve considerably- if the IS player cannot force the Clanner into 2v1 or worse matchups.

[Taemien]

TheCaptainJZ, on 08 January 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

Clan LRMs:

Unlockable <180 meters but still deal damage if dumbfired
and/or
Chance to deal feedback damage (critical hit) to the launcher or mech component if fired <180 m
and/or
Unable to adjust course <180 m (flightpath related--like current LRMs can only change course at key points in the flight path)
and/or
Reduced flight speed
and/or
Wider spread
and/or
Much slower reload time
and/or
Less weapon health

WIth the right combinations of these variables, there is no reason to change the base stats.

Clan ERPPCs

Requires variable charge up to desync with other weapons and require good judgement to use well
-Tap to fire immediately at 10 damage (like IS)
-Hold longer for linearly increased damage up to [15] if held up to [2] seconds or whatever balance dictates (Variation on the charge up mechanic in MechAssault which should add flavor, but requires more skill and the right opportunities to use well)
Probably longer recycle time and more heat
Slower projectile speed?

These are just a couple ideas. I think it might be good to make clan tech more fragile than IS tech if it is more powerful. I do think it should have a slight edge over IS tech, but it should feel like the difference between a PPC and an ERPPC. The ERPPC is an upgrade, but with disadvantages so both are useful.

I like your idea about LRMs. Though I do think if we're going to have 5 ton LRM20s.. they shouldn't be able to indirect fire as well.

Alexandrix, on 08 January 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

That's.....pretty much exactly what I just said.

But,you managed to ignore the rest of my post about the only advantage of an omnimech being completely negated by MWO's open customization on battlemechs

If everything is going to be equal/balanced,then allow omni's the same level of customization as normal IS battlemechs.Either that,or slap a huge cbill fee,and a week long timer to change out the engine or skeletal structure of a battlemech,to simulate the battlemech going back to the factory for said refit.see how well that goes over.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I actually like the Omnimech customization options they are proposing. I don't believe they will be at a disadvantage to BattleMechs. Though one change I'd like to see is limit the engine changes to multiples of the mech's tonnage. For example an Atlas could use only a 100, 200, or 300 rated engine (not 400 since it is beyond its maximum allowed).

This would help slow down heavies and assaults a bit, and allow mediums to thrive, as well as throwing a bone to those who feel Omni's will move too slow to compete. I think engine changing is the deal breaker more than armor since most omnis have max or near max armor (Ryoken, Madcat, and Thor). Only a handful don't and I think most would use those as glass cannons anyway (Loki and Vulture).

[Alexandrix]

Taemien, on 08 January 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I actually like the Omnimech customization options they are proposing. I don't believe they will be at a disadvantage to BattleMechs. Though one change I'd like to see is limit the engine changes to multiples of the mech's tonnage. For example an Atlas could use only a 100, 200, or 300 rated engine (not 400 since it is beyond its maximum allowed).

This would help slow down heavies and assaults a bit, and allow mediums to thrive, as well as throwing a bone to those who feel Omni's will move too slow to compete. I think engine changing is the deal breaker more than armor since most omnis have max or near max armor (Ryoken, Madcat, and Thor). Only a handful don't and I think most would use those as glass cannons anyway (Loki and Vulture).

It's not that I dislike the idea of being stuck with whatever engine/armor/upgrades the chassis comes with....per say.I think it's "cool" from a flavor standpoint.I just think in the current system we have in MWO,it will hobble them quite a bit.Not an insurmountable disadvantage mind you.I just don't think it's..."fair"? when the IS battlemechs have completely open customization with none of the drawbacks that modifying IS battlemechs should have.

my idea fix for it is similar to your idea about engine limits.I would like to see all mechs being limited in engine size depending on what stock engine it came with.Let's say 25 points in either direction? that sounds like it would give enough room for customization but still keep the mech in the original range that was intended.

So an atlas that comes with a 300STD could use anywhere from a 275 to a 325.

[Max Grayson]

maybe this has been said already. But shouldn't PGI really be working on fixing the inner sphere content first, finishing CW and wait a year before introducing anything to do with clans?

Edited by Max Grayson, 08 January 2014 - 02:53 PM.

[Alexandrix]

Max Grayson, on 08 January 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

maybe this has been said already. But shouldn't PGI really be working on fixing the inner sphere content first, finishing CW and wait a year before introducing anything to do with clans?

Should they? of course.
But they wanted their swimming pool full of money NOW DAMNIT!!!

[Scrawny Cowboy]

Suggested this a few months back and not sure if this is the right place for but I'll leave it here

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2737262

Quote

Just wanted to add an idea I had since CB for Clan. Was thinking for players to unlock elite perks and such for Clan mechs, have it so the primary variant is the only purchasable mech with loadout and mechlab values locked in as stock. Then! After basic perks are completed you can buy the alternate config's (also locked) to fill out the other two basic perk sets and move onto the elite perks for each config. Now! Once you master a config, that config is opened in mechlab to be customized (to whichever degree the Dev's decide). So basically you buy one mech chassis (maybe this can be used as a one-time large buy-in for each clan mech, depending on how the economics work for the Clans) and you purchase config's as though they're separate variants (obviously cheaper to offset the chassis purchase) and exp grind to unlock customization once mastery is bought for each config. Just a thought

[Permawired]

My apologies if this has already been suggested but why not simply adjust the match making engine to equate clan mech tonnage as 1.5-2.0 compared to IS tonnage? So for example if a Daishi is picked for a match it would be put against an Atlas and a Trebuchet. One other nice twist to the match making would be to have the option to select mixed tech types or not, so if you wanted a clan vs IS match you could do that. In either case you could use the same aforementioned base method of balance by allowing more IS tonnage in a match to offset the tech advantages from the clans.

[Sereglach]

Unfortunately, I must admit I am not very inclined to look at all 87 pages to see if these points have already been noted.

1. Engine rating as a fixed item seems very ambiguous. Does the engine rating mean the max engine of the model, or the exact size that it comes with? Example 1: The max engine rating of a Wolverine 6K is 375, but the max rating of the 6R is 360. OR Example 2: Configuration A has a fixed stock engine of 250 but Configuration B has a fixed stock engine of 300. Some expanded clarification would be greatly appreciated. Fixing a configuration to an exact engine size seems counterproductive to balancing given the state of the game (for example: light mechs going under 100kph are doomed . . . period).

2. As a balance approach for LRMs, why not consider tweaking the rounds per ton of ammo? Clan mechs were able to shrink everything, but for balancing purposes we can easily say the weight had to come from somewhere. Clans could have drastically dropped the weight of their missile systems by putting more targeting hardware into each missile, shifting the weight.

Dropping the Clan LRMs' rounds per ton down to 120 from 180 would cause a solid balancing platform. In order to carry as much ammo as Inner Sphere mechs one would need to devote significantly more tonnage and critical space to ammunition, and thusly they become reasonably balanced without changing any stock builds or weapon hard stats (tonnage & crit space) that could alter stock mechs.

[Kayne Warden]

Taemien, on 08 January 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

Then clan tech doesn't need to be better than IS tech.

Thank you.

Well... sadly that is not true. They at least have a weight advantage. Or you break up every loadout in the game. PGI won't do that.
And yes, clan mechs are a lot bettter, than IS STANDARD variants. We don't use standard variants. For example the thunderbolt: 1 large laser, 3 med lasers and some missiles in stock. We can easily replace the LL with two PPCs.
The clans usually already use XL engines, endo steel and ferro armor, so they cannot load more tonnage than the stock mechs. So, yes, clan is still better, but not THAT much better. Nothing you can't fix with weight or numbers.

[Taemien]

Alexandrix, on 08 January 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

It's not that I dislike the idea of being stuck with whatever engine/armor/upgrades the chassis comes with....per say.I think it's "cool" from a flavor standpoint.I just think in the current system we have in MWO,it will hobble them quite a bit.Not an insurmountable disadvantage mind you.I just don't think it's..."fair"? when the IS battlemechs have completely open customization with none of the drawbacks that modifying IS battlemechs should have.

my idea fix for it is similar to your idea about engine limits.I would like to see all mechs being limited in engine size depending on what stock engine it came with.Let's say 25 points in either direction? that sounds like it would give enough room for customization but still keep the mech in the original range that was intended.

So an atlas that comes with a 300STD could use anywhere from a 275 to a 325.

My idea is a little more restrictive than that at least for heavier machines. For example a Centurion D mounts a stock 300 engine. With my idea it'd be able to mount a 100, 150, ... 250, 300, and 350. Overall lights and mediums would be slowed down a tad (by 10-15 rating), but so would heavies and assaults, as they wouldn't likely be able to move past their stock engines (cept for the Dragon, which was made with speed in mind). Of course I'd adjust some of these maximums depending on shape of the mech (bigger profile mechs may see a slight boost).

Even I don't want to see Atlases and such sprinting by Masakaris... even though 91kph 5 LL atlases were fun as {Scrap} in MW4 for CTF, it was a bit weird.

Jack Warde, on 09 January 2014 - 01:08 AM, said:

Well... sadly that is not true. They at least have a weight advantage. Or you break up every loadout in the game. PGI won't do that.
And yes, clan mechs are a lot bettter, than IS STANDARD variants. We don't use standard variants. For example the thunderbolt: 1 large laser, 3 med lasers and some missiles in stock. We can easily replace the LL with two PPCs.
The clans usually already use XL engines, endo steel and ferro armor, so they cannot load more tonnage than the stock mechs. So, yes, clan is still better, but not THAT much better. Nothing you can't fix with weight or numbers.

I agree numbers shouldn't be fiddled with when it comes to weight and criticals. But those aren't the only two balancing acts that can be done. They've already stated how they will handle Clan Er Large Lasers. More damage, longer range (clan attributes), but longer beam delays, and higher heat values bring them in line with IS Large and Er Large Lasers.

As was suggested above with Clan LRMs. Capable of doing full damage up to 180m unlike IS LRMs. But no locks.. so no Streak SRM20s being fired there. Beyond 180m they lock like normal LRMs.. however unlike IS LRMs they fire straight and do not arc. This offsets their low tonnage requirements. A system that works up close (its easy to hit LRMs within 180.. they just do nothing), but allows for a lockon beyond the range that unguided just sucks.. would be rather interesting. Gives options without being OP. I like this better than the proposed half damage from 90-180m. See.. I don't agree with EVERYTHING PGI says, I do have my own ideas (maybe I should have expressed them earlier... oh well you all that stuck it out this long get the chance to discuss them lol)