259 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

More of a line works really well. About 8 mechs but spread a bit, not blobbed up. Helps secure the flank. Then 4 mechs to flank the enemy. It's enough to overwhelm 1 or 2 mechs, then fade.

I've seen it work a lot. Again, it's about mobility. You stay somewhere too long and you get flanked. You end up in a position where you're getting shot at from 2 directions, you've got no cover and you get killed or at least badly chewed. In Assault it's all about the middle of the map since you need to stay near your cap and be able to threaten the enemies. There is no real tactical flexibility, there's 1 or at most 2 places you can go.

That's not the case in Skirmish. The battle ranges over the map, switches ranges constantly and brawling makes up a big part of it. Sniping needs the right location and time to set up. Poptarts do great in Conquest/Assault because they can cover the places you have to be or force you to go to one of 2 locations. I've only seen a handful total in Skirmish and they're far from dominant. When you can be just about certain every match will involve brawls at 20 meters PPCs lose their luster. ERLLs are more common and AC20s replacing 2xAC5s. Fast-fire ACs struggle when you've got to constantly be on the move to avoid getting split off and killed by 3 or 4 mediums.

Pincer kills blob. Blob kills scatter. Scatter breaks pincer. Mobility > armor and PPCs. Skirmish requires more tactics and more flexibility than Assault/Conquest.

Some people are happy in the kiddie pool. and need caps to keep people from doing unexpected stuff or to give them an easy way out when they fail to win the battle. That's fine, go play in those modes. Skirmish is the deep end. Don't come there if you don't know how to swim.

[Roland]

The notion of a blob is really just a simplistic misunderstanding of the notion of overlapping fields of fire. Generally, if all of your mesh's are together, they can kind of shoot the same thing. The strength comes from the concentration of fire, not simply being close together. This is illustrated most clearly in cases where a team blocks it's own firing arcs, such as in the entry to the caldera on Terra therma. The team is certainly still a blob, but has no overlapping fields of fire, and gets decimated.

Likewise, it is superior to achieve overlapping fire through multidirectional firing arcs, by positioning shooters on flanks. If coordinated correctly, you achieve concentrated fire while preventing the enemy from defending itself effectively. All of your mechs can hit theirs, but all of their mech's can't hit yours.

Of course, such a maneuver can be more difficult than simply blobbing together, because if you are not aware of the terrain the surrounded enemy can simply push one side or the other, isolating it and crushing it while taking the remainder of the team or of the fight while they spend time repositioning.

[Sandpit]

the "blob" strategy came about from "stick together" when dropping in PUGs. With minimal communication it was the best tactical advice to give to new players without voip.

[sveno]

i love skirmish. best thing happened to mwo since beta, no arguing around that.

brutal fast paced (multi)battles with a gameflow i have not yet experienced in mwo.

had multiple games on PUG with advanced tactics with great response in counter from the enemy.

out of 20-30 matches no instance of anybody hiding at the end: remaining lights did always give in to the inevitable.

a new experience - this mode is win.

Edited by sveno, 21 December 2013 - 08:28 PM.

[Sandpit]

sveno, on 21 December 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

had multiple games on PUG with advanced tactics with great response in counter from the enemy.

I'm curious, why is it players seem to tout teamwork in skirmish but not other modes?

[Roland]

Sandpit, on 21 December 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

I'm curious, why is it players seem to tout teamwork in skirmish but not other modes?

Because the other modes reduce the game to a simplistic shadow of real combat, by hinging victory upon a little red square.

[MischiefSC]

Sandpit, on 21 December 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

I'm curious, why is it players seem to tout teamwork in skirmish but not other modes?

Honestly? No real point most the time on Assault or Conquest. Some months ago, being the math nerd and statistician I am, I attempted to communicate with my team in chat to coordinate tactics. Started every match with polite greetings and recommended a specific tactic based on the map and the teams mech loadout. I got 7 positive responses out of 50 matches and 22 negative responses. Rest of the time was either no response or a response that didn't actually translate to action.

There's only a couple things TO do on Assault/Conquest. Go to the specific spot that lets you guard your base while shooting the enemy. Poptart/LRM/Snipe. Hide and wait for brawling. Go die alone. Go cap. Go stop the other teams guys trying to cap you. There's a little variance in there but there's not a lot of options. No need for complex tactics - the other team is either going to try to cap you or you can make them all run back to their base to stop your capping them. Once in a blue moon someone will just defend their base but it's uncommon in pugs.

I've had positive responses to recommended tactics, either mine or someone elses, almost every match in Skirmish. People are willing to try something different. You can take risks without wondering if three guys in Spiders armed with flamers and cap accelerators are just going to go stand in the magic box and end the game. Regardless of what you do, your skill, your cunning, your techniques, your build, anyone can just go stand in a magic box and end the game. You can coordinate your positioning however you want but you've all got to scatter and run back to base when the cap warning comes up.

Capping trumps everything else. Everything. Skill, build, speed, numbers, firepower, everything. Thus everything else in the match has to bow to it. Without that, without being tied to your position relative two pre-set points, you can make complex plans and execute them. Take risks, split into smaller groups. Everyone on your team has the exact same goal - kill all the other guys. You don't need to accept that half your team has one goal (cap) half has another (fight) and try to find some compromise between them.

Skirmish puts the win or the loss directly in the hands of your ability to win the fight. You make a stupid choice there is no 'I'm going to go cap' card to play. You quickly realize that doing damage to everyone on the other team, significant damage, even if you never get a kill is going to pay out NICE because if you win you can pull 12 assists. All the damage you do to the other team matters. One guy in a Trollmando can make all your hard work irrelevant in Assault, that doesn't happen in Skirmish.

Truth is capping all but guarantees 'trolling' in most matches. Someone on either (or both) sides is going to exploit the magic box to force people to either run to cap or stop cap or stand in a specific place, to snatch victory from defeat not by a steady hand and trigger discipline but standing in the box, even if the rest of their team wants to fight.

There's no trolling in Skirmish. No magic boxes, no cheap tricks. You win or lose on fighting prowess alone. That's why teamwork matters more. Everyone in Skirmish is on the same page as everyone else on their team. They have the same goals, when you see a teammate taking fire you move to support him because if you lose the battle you lose the match.

It's a better experience all around. Not everyone in every match is on their 'A' game but mostly, yeah. Your whole team has the same goal and nobody can count on the magic box to save them. That's why tactics count, that's why it's more like Battletech.

[New Day]

Asmudius Heng, on 21 December 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

Incorrect.

Having a solid group is very important but flankers and splitting carefully can give much better results.

A blob is big and unweidly and is prone to being flanks and bombarded.

A solid core with a few flankers tyrying to turn and confuse the enemy works very well for instance.

Or a pincer movements are hammer and anvil etc- they are HARDER to do but are way more effective. Blobbing is just the simplest, easiest way for pugs to get some effective cohesion.

Hell blobbing is your best course of action in assault if you just defend near your base so you dont get capped out ... at least in skirmish you can blob in any part of the map and the enemy can then find ways to flush you out

Like Dodger summed up:

DodgerH2O, on 21 December 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

If you split with a mobile force you can engage the blob from the direction they're not facing and backstab/whittle them to death or until they get irritated enough to split themselves. It's about patience more than anything I guess, if you have more than the blob you can win but if the blob is smart and keeps aware they'll prevail through superior alphas and armor values.

Each and every one of your tactics has the prerequisite of you not engaging a 12 mech blob. If you do, you know what will happen? You can engage them from the back or the side, but they will simply turn and annihilate you.

If you try the 'hammer and anvil' (and the 'core tactic') and if the blob is smart, they will simply push through the frontal assaulters and then mop you up (this usually happens when trying to flank and when the enemy team stays together). Pincer suffers from the same vulnerability, where if you focus 1 side exclusively you will win.

You are piloting mechs. You slow but you live long, there is basically no cover and there are mechanics like poptarting which means you can't just translate real (past) world tactics and expect them to work. To give you an example, a flanking force would be 4 guys with handguns assaulting a team of 12 handling LMGs. And 1 shot 1 kill doesn't apply.

Not to mention that all of these tactics work ONLY on maps with a lot of cover, because if you flanking force doesn't destroy the defenders you will not have anywhere to run when they focus you.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

aniviron, on 17 December 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

I agree, nothing says "This is Battletech" quite like a Jenner hiding somewhere in Tourmaline, undiscoverable and shutdown for ten minutes. Good times.

I'm guessing what you are experiencing is patch-day euphoria. Don't worry, it will wear off. It turns out that normally, one-legged Jenners don't kill Atlases very often. This is happening mostly because today is one of the two days every month when people come back to see if anything worthwhile has changed.

You do know matches are 15 min, right?

[Asmudius Heng]

NamesAreStupid, on 22 December 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

Like Dodger summed up:

Each and every one of your tactics has the prerequisite of you not engaging a 12 mech blob. If you do, you know what will happen? You can engage them from the back or the side, but they will simply turn and annihilate you.

If you try the 'hammer and anvil' (and the 'core tactic') and if the blob is smart, they will simply push through the frontal assaulters and then mop you up (this usually happens when trying to flank and when the enemy team stays together). Pincer suffers from the same vulnerability, where if you focus 1 side exclusively you will win.

You are piloting mechs. You slow but you live long, there is basically no cover and there are mechanics like poptarting which means you can't just translate real (past) world tactics and expect them to work. To give you an example, a flanking force would be 4 guys with handguns assaulting a team of 12 handling LMGs. And 1 shot 1 kill doesn't apply.

Not to mention that all of these tactics work ONLY on maps with a lot of cover, because if you flanking force doesn't destroy the defenders you will not have anywhere to run when they focus you.

Flanking works well. Not coming in force, i mean sniping at the edges, hitting and running, then falling back to your main force if things get hairy.

Blobbing is not a bad tactic but its not the only tactic and it is defeatable.

Blobbing makes you a sitting target unless you are also moving as a group very well. A blob is easy to predict and now there is arty to content with.

Its a tactic - its not the best or only tactic. The hammer and anvil actually works best if you are tying up the main force with a smaller gruop then hit them form behind with your main group actually, all it takes is the element of suprise and a few rear armour hits and suddenly the weight of tonnage turns in your favour and you may well win through attrition going forward.

Just saying play smart as a blob is not really an argument. Playing smart as any tactical grouping means you can win. Blogs are not that great at turning to face very quickly against moving and hiding enemy you will find also and they will block each other fire a lot or be caught up in terrain a lot.

In MW4 is was easier to blob due to less terrain and you still didnt do only that at the highest level of competative play.

[aniviron]

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 22 December 2013 - 01:28 AM, said:

You do know matches are 15 min, right?

Yes, I am aware. It generally takes about five to eight minutes for the meatgrinder to finish off most of the mechs with these close spawns, and then the last ten to seven are spent looking for the spider.

[Linkin]

I do have to say Skirmish surprised me. I avoided assault like the plague, so I assumed Skirmish would also not be enjoyable for me. However, as others have said, with the removal of any type of cap, the whole battle changes. Tactics need to be sound, knowing the enemy's position/distribution becomes more vital, all that fun stuff that makes this game a little more complex (in a good way). Also, it opens the maps up more, since the battle could feasibly happen anywhere. Overall, quite liking skirmish.

[sveno]

Sandpit, on 21 December 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

I'm curious, why is it players seem to tout teamwork in skirmish but not other modes?

the truth? fear to be alone in this badass gamemode

[Sandpit]

My point is, those tactics all work in any other game mode. They aren't exclusive to skirmish. I was just wondering why players seem to think that skirmish now all of a sudden requires teamwork. I'm not complaining mind you, I'm just pointing out that this is all valid for any game mode we currently have.

[Roland]

Sandpit, on 22 December 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

My point is, those tactics all work in any other game mode. They aren't exclusive to skirmish. I was just wondering why players seem to think that skirmish now all of a sudden requires teamwork. I'm not complaining mind you, I'm just pointing out that this is all valid for any game mode we currently have.

They actually don't work in other game modes since your mobility is heavily restricted by the cap locations.

[Sandpit]

Roland, on 22 December 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

They actually don't work in other game modes since your mobility is heavily restricted by the cap locations.

My unit and I would tend to disagree with that one. That's also completely invalid when it comes to conquest which has multiple cap points

[Roland]

Sandpit, on 22 December 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

My unit and I would tend to disagree with that one. That's also completely invalid when it comes to conquest which has multiple cap points

In conquest the caps can play an even bigger role, since you could potentially just avoid all conflict and run around capping. Against such an opponent, you can't really employ a combat focused tactic, as you are constantly trying to counter the caps, or else you just kill what you can and ignore the caps and don't really care if you lose.

Everyone who played in the nr leagues in mechwarrior 4 will tell you the same thing, the notion of tactical movement seen in mwo assault and conquest game types was a joke.

[warner2]

Glad to see so many people liking skirmish mode. I'm one of those people who get's it and enjoy what is, if played properly which tends to happen quite a lot based on what I've seen, the tendency for a flowing more dynamic more movement style of play. Sure you get that in assault mode too to a certain extent but you are restricted because of you're base.

Personally I love it. OK it has it's flaws, for example tonnage limitations, but they are coming (soon, and with UI 2.0 ).

Overall it's a breath of fresh air and a nice complement too the other game modes.

[Sandpit]

warner2, on 22 December 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Glad to see so many people liking skirmish mode. I'm one of those people who get's it and enjoy what is, if played properly which tends to happen quite a lot based on what I've seen, the tendency for a flowing more dynamic more movement style of play. Sure you get that in assault mode too to a certain extent but you are restricted because of you're base.

Personally I love it. OK it has it's flaws, for example tonnage limitations, but they are coming (soon, and with UI 2.0 ).

Overall it's a breath of fresh air and a nice complement too the other game modes.

I don't ahve anything against it. I play it form time to time. I enjoy it when I do. I just don't understand hating on other modes now or saying tactics are invalidated in the other modes

[Adrienne Vorton]

Love it, the only mode i play until they bring the attack/defense in 2020...