77 replies to this topic

[Diego Angelus]

Vrbas, on 23 December 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

Phoenix Hawk

Nets me over 400 average, easy. I've gotten up to a thousand a few times. For me, it's a proven build.

Ignore the "standard only" nonsense. Hunchback, yes. This thing, no. It spreads damage like a champ and I rarely get side-torso'd. It's the only medium save the Cicada that, in my opinion, can safely run an XL.

I personally don't like that build. But in competitive that build is just silly and STD only is not nonsense you can use whole right side to take damage and in those matches you will need everything to survive if you get focus fired and you use XL you are good as dead

[Escef]

Diego Angelus, on 23 December 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

...if you get focus fired and you use XL you are good as dead

Fixed.

[JayVrb]

Diego Angelus, on 23 December 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

I personally don't like that build. But in competitive that build is just silly and STD only is not nonsense you can use whole right side to take damage and in those matches you will need everything to survive if you get focus fired and you use XL you are good as dead

Competitive play? Normal play? I'm not entirely sure I see the difference between them; not quite sure about all this big hubub to begin with. People play what works for them. Why would they build something different for "competitive play" or say "Well that won't work in a competition"? Unless there's rules I don't know about in competitive play, it's all the same. What works works.

The Hawk is actually quite suited for an XL engine. It's not really an AC20 toter, that's for the Hunchie and Cent. The Hunch blows the Shaw outta the water as far as torso flexibility and twist agility is concerned and the Cent can run stupid fast with an AC20 because it's not restricted to the torso.

I just think it's silly when people say "XL isn't for competitive play"; It's all "play".

Edited by Vrbas, 23 December 2013 - 05:31 PM.

[Diego Angelus]

Escef, on 23 December 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

Fixed.

Not necessarily you have little room to work with but with XL you are just dead that its after you lose arm your vital parts are open.

Vrbas, on 23 December 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

Competitive play? Normal play? I'm not entirely sure I see the difference between them; not quite sure about all this big hubub to begin with. People play what works for them. Why would they build something different for "competitive play" or say "Well that won't work in a competition"? Unless there's rules I don't know about in competitive play, it's all the same. What works works.

The Hawk is actually quite suited for an XL engine. It's not really an AC20 toter, that's for the Hunchie and Cent. The Hunch blows the Shaw outta the water as far as torso flexibility and twist agility is concerned and the Cent can run stupid fast with an AC20 because it's not restricted to the torso.

I just think it's silly when people say "XL isn't for competitive play"; It's all "play".

I don't know how much experience you have but from mine STD is way to go on mediums if you bring AC20 hunch its going to get thorn off immediately that is why shawk and treb is used quite a lot and cent can run as fast as much as it like that arms goes out quite fast and most popular cents are zombie builds. As of right now we have no idea on which map we spawn or where so builds usually reflect that maybe if we could pick maps we could see more XL mechs. No one said its not for competitive play you can do it and do well but its not reliable.

Edited by Diego Angelus, 23 December 2013 - 05:45 PM.

[Lycanstrom]

Diego Angelus, on 23 December 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

[size=4]

Not necessarily you have little room to work with but with XL you are just dead that its after you lose arm your vital parts are open.



I don't know how much experience you have but from mine STD is way to go on mediums if you bring AC20 hunch its going to get thorn off immediately that is why shawk and treb is used quite a lot and cent can run as fast as much as it like that arms goes out quite fast and most popular cents are zombie builds. As of right now we have no idea on which map we spawn or where so builds usually reflect that maybe if we could pick maps we could see more XL mechs. No one said its not for competitive play you can do it and do well but its not reliable.

As someone who runs w/ Vrbas all the time, I can assure he has more experience than most people I've played with. Not only that, but I've seen him wreak havoc and be THE difference-maker in a lot of matches, all in his SHawk build as linked above. I was so impressed with his build I copied it, and despite the fact that I'm not nearly as competent a pilot as he is, I still do more than respectable in the build.

The "competitive play" argument is pretty silly. There's no reason in the world to play MWO competitively right now. And if you do it, what you need to thrive is skill with your build.... not a generic build that everyone thinks is "optimal".

[JayVrb]

Diego Angelus, on 23 December 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

I don't know how much experience you have but from mine STD is way to go on mediums

I swear by standard engines, I really do. But the only builds of mine I see are fitting for it are the Shadowhawk, the Cicada, and the Victor... and the Griffin does quite well in it too but it's too early to tell. My Victor is the only one that suffers maybe a 10-15% "torso-disadvantage" if I get wreckless and don't spread damage, otherwise it wrecks.

Diego Angelus, on 23 December 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

if you bring AC20 hunch its going to get thorn off immediately that is why shawk and treb is used quite a lot and cent can run as fast as much as it like that arms goes out quite fast and most popular cents are zombie builds.

I do great in my HBK-4H, I know how to protect the torso and it's got unmatched agility and torso flexibility for it's loadout. And we must be playing a different game because I NEVER see Trebs with an AC20... heck, I rarely see Trebs at all because they're unfortunately a botched chassis

Diego Angelus, on 23 December 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

No one said its not for competitive play you can do it and do well but its not reliable.

Yeah, the STD engine is definitely more reliable. But for some mechs and weight classes it doesn't make sense. If there's a mech out there whose hitboxes offer a compelling reason to run an XL to take advantage of it's hardpoint capabilities, it should be utilized; the Shadowhawk is definitely one of the few that does it right.

Edited by Vrbas, 23 December 2013 - 06:31 PM.

[Fate 6]

Vrbas, on 23 December 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

Competitive play? Normal play? I'm not entirely sure I see the difference between them; not quite sure about all this big hubub to begin with. People play what works for them. Why would they build something different for "competitive play" or say "Well that won't work in a competition"? Unless there's rules I don't know about in competitive play, it's all the same. What works works.

The Hawk is actually quite suited for an XL engine. It's not really an AC20 toter, that's for the Hunchie and Cent. The Hunch blows the Shaw outta the water as far as torso flexibility and twist agility is concerned and the Cent can run stupid fast with an AC20 because it's not restricted to the torso.

I just think it's silly when people say "XL isn't for competitive play"; It's all "play".

Did you not read the point of this thread? I made it to discuss competitive Shadow Hawk builds. As in, to use in non-PUG games, such as 12-mans, tournaments, etc.

[Diego Angelus]

Lycanstrom, on 23 December 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

As someone who runs w/ Vrbas all the time, I can assure he has more experience than most people I've played with. Not only that, but I've seen him wreak havoc and be THE difference-maker in a lot of matches, all in his SHawk build as linked above. I was so impressed with his build I copied it, and despite the fact that I'm not nearly as competent a pilot as he is, I still do more than respectable in the build.

The "competitive play" argument is pretty silly. There's no reason in the world to play MWO competitively right now. And if you do it, what you need to thrive is skill with your build.... not a generic build that everyone thinks is "optimal".

I thought same use your build but then i fought against strong opponent then showed me I was wrong to bring my mech in that match since then i tried and tested in matches and found out that STD is way to go longer you live more useful I'm to my team and that can make a difference. There is a reason to play its more fun then play pugs and you learn more facing good opponents.

Vrbas, on 23 December 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

I do great in my HBK-4H, I know how to protect the torso and it's got unmatched agility and torso flexibility for it's loadout. And we must be playing a different game because I NEVER see Trebs with an AC20... heck, I rarely see Trebs at all because they're unfortunately a botched chassis

Trebs with ac20 are hunchies without hunch so they are better I saw them in matches when we have limited drop weight so there were lots of mediums (whole lance made up of trebs). Well competitive matches are nothing like pugs I was amazed how different it was.

Vrbas, on 23 December 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

Yeah, the STD engine is definitely more reliable. But for some mechs and weight classes it doesn't make sense. If there's a mech out there whose hitboxes offer a compelling reason to run an XL to take advantage of it's hardpoint capabilities, it should be utilized; the Shadowhawk is definitely one of the few that does it right.

It doesn't make sense do use STD Shawk in a pug but competitive its totally different matter. My favourite mech is BJ1 but I wouldn't dare to bring into real match.

[JayVrb]

Fate 6, on 23 December 2013 - 08:17 PM, said:

Did you not read the point of this thread? I made it to discuss competitive Shadow Hawk builds. As in, to use in non-PUG games, such as 12-mans, tournaments, etc.

I don't mean to be rude, but did you not read my point that there is no difference between competitive play and... whatever else in the world you call all other play styles that aren't trololol builds? I mean, you play to win right? So you make a build that works and that you do well in? So what if it has an XL in it? I would GLADLY take my XL Shadowhawk into a 12v12 tournament, I don't see where I would get hazed for that or let my team down. I don't "nerf" my builds to PUG and then bring out the "optimized ones" when I get in an organized team, I play what works. Period. The only scenario where I belive your argument can stand up is in LRM builds where you are almost utterly dependant upon communication to maximize the potential damage output of your build.

I think people misunderstand that XLs in the right chassis are more survivable than you give them credit for. Again, given the two I'll choose a STD over an XL any day WHEN I CAN or WHEN IT MAKES SENSE for the chassis at hand. I can't count the number of times I've last-manned it with a STD Centurion or Hunchback. But if there's a mech whose hitboxes are friendly enough to survivability as far as damage spread is concern, you would be a disservice to your "competitive team" to waste tonnage on "survivability" when survivability already exists.

It's not a "I'm right, you're wrong" issue here, it's a "consider things from a different perspective".

Edited by Vrbas, 23 December 2013 - 09:44 PM.

[PanzerMagier]

juxstapo, on 18 December 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

forums quickly divide between the 2xAC/5 and 3xAC/2 parties.

I rebel with my 1XAC/5 2XAC/2 shad!

[Febrosian R Gillingham]

Vrbas, on 23 December 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

I don't mean to be rude, but did you not read my point that there is no difference between competitive play and... whatever else in the world you call all other play styles that aren't trololol builds? I mean, you play to win right? So you make a build that works and that you do well in? So what if it has an XL in it? I would GLADLY take my XL Shadowhawk into a 12v12 tournament, I don't see where I would get hazed for that or let my team down. I don't "nerf" my builds to PUG and then bring out the "optimized ones" when I get in an organized team, I play what works. Period. The only scenario where I belive your argument can stand up is in LRM builds where you are almost utterly dependant upon communication to maximize the potential damage output of your build.

I think people misunderstand that XLs in the right chassis are more survivable than you give them credit for. Again, given the two I'll choose a STD over an XL any day WHEN I CAN or WHEN IT MAKES SENSE for the chassis at hand. I can't count the number of times I've last-manned it with a STD Centurion or Hunchback. But if there's a mech whose hitboxes are friendly enough to survivability as far as damage spread is concern, you would be a disservice to your "competitive team" to waste tonnage on "survivability" when survivability already exists.

It's not a "I'm right, you're wrong" issue here, it's a "consider things from a different perspective".

Not to be rude, but if you don't think there is a difference between competitive and pug play, then you have not played or watched a competitive match. Generally speaking, and especially true compared to the top teams, pug play is lower skilled and obviously much less organized. Popping out in the open in a pug match against people who usually are not great shots, who are not focus firing, and who are not in optimized (for whatever role) mechs will see you off with some light damage before you realize your mistake and get back into cover. A higher-level competitive team will have you called out right when you leave cover and have multiple mechs hitting you. The better pilots out there will be hitting called components of your mech, not just "that shadowhawk over there". Teams usually don't mill around in an uncoordinated blob, they'll be positioned in such a way that maximizes guns on target while presenting as little of an opportunity for taking return fire or being flanked as possible, and they will actually reposition in response to enemy movements. Teams usually follow the calls of a single drop commander and execute coordinated strategies. Competitive play is an entirely different game from pug play. Thats why people bother with it.

Basing opinion of a mech solely on how it performs in pug play and then claiming it is a competitive build is ridiculous. Talking about competitive play when you have no experience with it is similarly ridiculous. It isn't that you don't play to win, or are purposely gimping yourself, the problem is who you are competing against, and what that makes you think is viable. Example: dual ac20 jagermechs - great in pugs, never taken in competitive play. Again, not trying to be rude or put you down, but the build you linked to with the srm4's and lb10-x would be considered a joke in competitive play. Lb10-x's are never taken because they spread damage terribly and are only "useful" within ~300m. Eleven tons plus ammo for such a limited weapon is a huge waste, considering that you could spend 3 more tons and get an ac20 with better pinpoint/range/damage or you could save 2 tons for an uac5. SRM's are currently plagued with terrible hit reg. The XL engine in a short ranged brawler makes you extremely vulnerable against players with good aim and focus fire. In addition to everything else, lights would eat you alive.

Seriously, get 12 friends or join a team and play in RHoD/LMS/Marik/Proxis/whatever other leagues. Bring xl+lb10-x builds and see firsthand why no serious teams bring them.

That said, shadowhawks CAN bring an XL engine but only for specific circumstances (anti-light duty in very light drop decks where there aren't jump snipers, or possibly long range duty in mid-tonnage decks where you want more jump snipers but don't have the tonnage to play with). The hitboxes are quite good, but for any build where you actually expect to take damage, you will absolutely want a standard engine. Having a shield torso is one of the biggest selling points of the mech as it can almost double your survivability if used right. Using an xl robs you of that.

Edited by Febrosian R Gillingham, 24 December 2013 - 12:19 AM.

[JayVrb]

Saying an XL build isn't "fit for competitive play" unless it's a dedicated scout hunter is close-minded elitism mentality at it's finest. Teamwork is teamwork. Someone mentioned before, if you get focus fired it's not going to matter if you have an XL or a standard, at which point your stance is out the window.

I'm not arguing that there isn't a difference between 12 randoms and 12 coordinated team members, but I believe Mediums fit a nice role that lets them get away with virtually anything; a Medium build that performs well in a 4-Man would also perform equally well given it's role in a 12-Man. I've run "PUG Builds", as you call them, just as successfully, if not more so, in 4 and 12 man teams as I have dorking around in my room alone drinking Mountain Dew and eating Doritos, with all the solo nerd rage you can handle. Being as they are [primarily] support mechs, they reap the benefits of people [often] picking more heavily armored targets on your team to shoot at (or those with strategic equipment like ECM scouts), leaving you with a window and weak points to chip at if you know what you're doing. Not always the case, sometimes they pick you to gang up on. In which case, STD or XL engine you're boned. I'd rather have the speed to potentially escape than the "survivability" of making them fire a couple more lasers at me before I die.

I'm not trying to defend my build, I'm trying shed light on the bigger picture here: the bogus mentality of "Blah-Blurb isn't meant for competitive play". Everyone has different skill levels, quirks, and niches to fit. A "competitive", STD engine'd mech that works for Joe might not be the "competitive", STD engine'd mech for Sally; Sally might find that she kicks pros to the curb with an XL and no one can touch her (I know, heresy right??). Everyone is unique and how they learn the ins and outs of their mechs is what makes this game fun. Some of you could not run a HBK-H (STD), Victor 9S (XL), or PhoenixHawk (XL) build as well as I could. Likewise, there's a number of mechs and variants of those listed I'm sure you have that I would fall flat on my face in.

End of day, find a mech that you like, that you play WELL with, that you understand, and enjoy the game. Cheers and hope to see you guys out there!

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Vrbas, on 24 December 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

Saying an XL build isn't "fit for competitive play" unless it's a dedicated scout hunter is close-minded elitism mentality at it's finest.

I'm not arguing that there isn't a difference between 12 randoms and 12 coordinated team members, but I believe Mediums fit a nice role that lets them get away with virtually anything; a Medium build that performs well in a 4-Man would also perform

I'm not trying to defend my build, I'm trying shed light on the bigger picture here: the bogus mentality of "Blah-Blurb isn't meant for competitive play".

Please. Just stop.


Stop.


You have literally no idea what you're talking about. At all. All I'm going to say is get 11 friends and join a league. That is the only way we can convince you that you are wrong. League matches are so radically different you cannot even start to fathom how much so, as by selected lines I quoted from you.

[Roughneck45]

XL engine viability is directly related to the skill of your opponent. If they can aim the XL is a death sentence.

Edited by Roughneck45, 24 December 2013 - 09:24 AM.

[JayVrb]

mwhighlander, on 24 December 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

Please. Just stop.


Stop.


You have literally no idea what you're talking about. At all. All I'm going to say is get 11 friends and join a league. That is the only way we can convince you that you are wrong. League matches are so radically different you cannot even start to fathom how much so, as by selected lines I quoted from you.

If joining a league makes me sound as entitled as you, I'm ok over here in normal-man's land. Cheers buddy!

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Vrbas, on 24 December 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

If joining a league makes me sound as entitled as you, I'm ok over here in normal-man's land. Cheers buddy!

You entered a thread asking for what people use in leagues. I am more or less sending you a indirect invitation to play in leagues and information if you want to do so. The OP requested only that builds used in leagues and competitive play be posted.

If this doesn't interest you in the least bit, then more power to you. The resentful remarks are not needed.

Edited by mwhighlander, 24 December 2013 - 09:36 AM.

[JayVrb]

I don't have to be in a league to chime in here do I? Admitted, I highjacked the thread and turned it off-topic, but just because some of us aren't in a competitive league doesn't mean our builds should be discounted. I offered them for others to take under consideration, not immediately rejected because they don't have the "certified competitive badge" that apparently comes with every Standard Engine.

You'll probably say my build is laughable because of the XL and LB10, that's fine. All I'm offering is what has been working for me in my organized team play and solo drops. I also wanted to challenge the status-quo of "XL's are scrap for competition" because everything doesn't fit into a nice, neat little box of rules.

I really should consider competitive play and I'll take you up on the offer if I haven't offended too many people already. I play on 4-Mans plenty as well as 12-Mans, but I am interested in how things are different and willing to learn something new. Sorry for causing grief in the thread

[Escef]

mwhighlander, on 24 December 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

You entered a thread asking for what people use in leagues. I am more or less sending you a indirect invitation to play in leagues and information if you want to do so. The OP requested only that builds used in leagues and competitive play be posted.

If this doesn't interest you in the least bit, then more power to you. The resentful remarks are not needed.

You come across as having a bit of an attitude in this thread. If anything, that pushes people away from leagues.

Edited by Escef, 24 December 2013 - 09:53 AM.

[Bagheera]

Roughneck45, on 24 December 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

XL engine viability is directly related to the skill of your opponent. If they can aim the XL is a death sentence.

This. Very much this.

Escef, on 24 December 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

You come across as having a bit of an attitude in this thread. If anything, that pushes people away from leagues.

He's just mad because someone like me came in here, where I clearly have no business, and noted that Phra's version of the MetaHawk (2-ac5/1-PPC) with an xl280 is a tighter build than the version I've been running with a slightly larger engine. Apparently that constitutes "posting my (scrap) build." or something.

Because figuring out how to put 2AC5's and a PPC, or an AC20 and backup weapons on a Shadowhawk is such a difficult and brilliant thing to discover that anyone who doesn't "compete" could obviously never figure it out.

Gameplay is definitely very different in the 12man queue, but acting like the builds are some super secret thing that the rest of the playerbase could never possibly figure out on their own is just asinine.

MW:O builds are about as hard to figure out as a 10 piece Lego set for 6 year olds.

Edited by Bagheera, 24 December 2013 - 10:31 AM.

[Roughneck45]

Vrbas, on 24 December 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

Saying an XL build isn't "fit for competitive play" unless it's a dedicated scout hunter is close-minded elitism mentality at it's finest. Teamwork is teamwork. Someone mentioned before, if you get focus fired it's not going to matter if you have an XL or a standard, at which point your stance is out the window.

I'm not trying to defend my build, I'm trying shed light on the bigger picture here: the bogus mentality of "Blah-Blurb isn't meant for competitive play". Everyone has different skill levels, quirks, and niches to fit. A "competitive", STD engine'd mech that works for Joe might not be the "competitive", STD engine'd mech for Sally; Sally might find that she kicks pros to the curb with an XL and no one can touch her (I know, heresy right??). Everyone is unique and how they learn the ins and outs of their mechs is what makes this game fun. Some of you could not run a HBK-H (STD), Victor 9S (XL), or PhoenixHawk (XL) build as well as I could. Likewise, there's a number of mechs and variants of those listed I'm sure you have that I would fall flat on my face in.

That isn't true though. If you get focus fired it absolutely matters if you have an XL or not. XL means no shielding, and no shielding means you are going to die twice as fast.

Comp play is about min maxing your mechs for the highest skill set, so there are many things that are not good for it, XL engines in 40+ ton mechs being one of them. If you are terrible in a PPC AC20 SHD, but kick *** in a streak LBX build, you need to work on your aim.

You can use anything you want for fun and have great games in them, but if you want win against better players you need to start min maxing your mechs to the meta.