87 replies to this topic

[wwiiogre]

I have been in this game since early in closed beta. I have tried very hard to be constructive and do my best to help PGI create a fun game by being constructive both on the forum or when I send in emails with suggestions. Like anyone else, I have an opinion, its mine and its not really that special.

Here we go, since skirmish was added, ELO and Matchmaking is an EPIC FAIL. So bad, that more than 50% of my games that I have dropped in with my shiny new wolverine and griffins have been against teams that out tonned my own team by 300 tons or more. Sometimes even by 400 tons.

Yep I have been pug dropping and been getting placed with my little 55 ton wolverine and then find myself in skirmish and being the heaviest mech on my team. Then facing 9 assaults and 3 heavies on the opposing team.

At this point, unless I want to play Assault Warrior Online, Role Warfare is a joke and has never happened and will never happen at this rate.

Currently you get more xp and cbills for kills and assists. Not for playing a role, but for dealing damage. How do you deal the most damage, by using heavy and assault mechs. So when cbills were nerfed, the only way to grind is to Assault Warrior Online. Which encourages players to not utilize role warfare but to grind cbills the best way possible. Firepower, armor and tonnage.

ELO is a joke, never has worked, never will work. Especially when I continually get put on a team that is out tonned and hopelessly out firepowered by cheese mechs.

Now to the constructive part. Throwout ELO, it does not work. You want to rate a pilot, rate them by tonnage, number of drops and cbill value of mech with modules equipped. Win/loss and K/D are useless. Some magical formula does not balance a match. Tonnage, number of drops and equipment.

4man teams should always face other 4mans. Trial mechs should only face other trial mechs, new players should only face other new players.

There is nothing more frustrating than trying to grind a mech thru basic level and match after match facing overwhelming odds. With impossible chance to win. The other team running as a blob and firing line with all sniper weapons and cheese.

I remember the promises made to give every mech a role on the battlefield. To never have coolant pods. To only allow a mech with a command module (remember those 3 tons currently thrown away) use of uav, arty, air. But no, PGI continually gives the nod to cheese warrior online by making items that were going to be a part of role warfare become just another toy in the store.

PGI rewards most cbills and xp to damage done, kills and assists. Inserts a new game mode that is nothing more than deathmatch meaning, cheese builds are once again rewarded, all other styles of play need not apply.

So I can no longer select any. I cannot even play assault at this moment since even those games are so top heavy with assault and heavy mechs, it is not fun. All that is left is conquest, yet even in that game style the tonnage imbalance has been overwhelming. In the last week I have only been in 2 close games. The rest were blowouts or clean sweeps.

At this point, I give PGI an F for matchmaking. An F for role warfare.

An A grade would be where 90% of the matches are even or close. Meaning winning by a margin of 1-3 mechs. A B grade would be 80% a C 70%. But currently the score is so far below 50% that it appears it is blatantly being manipulated so that only people who like cheese warrior online will have any fun.

I play this game because it is challenging. I like a good challenge. Its fun, its thrilling. But being overwhelmed and outgunned 75% or more of the time. Is not fun. Oh maybe its fun for some people the people in the heavy and assault mechs facing my team in our lights and mediums.

When will PGI finally keep its word and make Mech Warrior Online a game where all mechs are important, not just heavy and assault mechs. Where the matchmaker will actually balance teams based on tonnage, equipment and number of drops by that pilot in that mech. And also balance premades. If one side has a 4man, the other should have only one 4man. If one side has no 4mans, then other side should also have no 4mans. It really is that simple.

So why has PGI continually made choices that reward alpha warrior online, cheese build warrior online, assault warrior online. And strayed away from role warfare, a game balanced so every mech class has its place. I really would like to know the answer to that.

I will not be buying a clan package. It was offered to me as a christmas present and I turned it down because the game is currently broken and is only fun if you play a Heavy or Assault mech in every drop and play with a 4 man or sync dropped multiple 4mans.

Sorry PGI, you have failed. ELO should die and be buried. As much as I have always hated BV at least it balanced equipment by cost. If you are not going to match tonnage, then at least match classes. 2 lights vs 2 lights, etc. So each side has same types of classes on a side. Throw in matching 4 mans and keeping new players out of matches vs tricked out cheese build mechs and you have a chance at a fun and balanced game.

Currently weapons are balanced, current mech classes are well thought out. What isn't working is the matchmaker. It is broken, it is so broken it should be tossed.

Just saying,

Chris

[Mr Andersson]

So far I too have experienced that the skirmish mode is producing a lot of roflstomps. But I don't think that particular problem is due to the matchmaker, but rather to the fact that the lances of a team are dropped so awfully far from each other. This punishes new or inexperienced players, who don't understand that staying together is the key to survival. It also downplays role warfare, as you need to cooperate with the rest of your team in order to play to the strengths of your role, and you can't do that if they are on the other side of the map.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Primarily the stomps in skirmish seem to be whomever is on teamspeak dominates. Trying to locate and link up on typed chat is difficult at best because the engagements happen so quickly. I see a lot of broken typing with guys just hitting enter so they can regain control.

Premades are basically kicking butt on the deaf, dumb and blind. No skills needed there, just voice comms. Command and control with quick intell wins battles. Lets not be obtuse. We know what the real issue is and it isn't tonnage or weapons loadouts.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 20 December 2013 - 03:43 AM, said:

Primarily the stomps in skirmish seem to be whomever is on teamspeak dominates. Trying to locate and link up on typed chat is difficult at best because the engagements happen so quickly. I see a lot of broken typing with guys just hitting enter so they can regain control. Premades are basically kicking butt on the deaf, dumb and blind. No skills needed there, just voice comms. Command and control with quick intell wins battles. Lets not be obtuse. We know what the real issue is and it isn't tonnage or weapons loadouts.

Yup. PUGs need VOiP so they can swear to each other when Pre Mades use their experience honed ability to coordinate.

I don't get mad cause my enemy can coordinate better that the deaf and mute. I was in quite a few matches PUGging and watch what a real team does in game as I saw 4-6 Mechs forming up and gunning down m team from Spectator mode. It was especially enlightening to watch from 3pV!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 20 December 2013 - 04:11 AM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 December 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

Yup. PUGs need VOiP so they can swear to each other when Pre Mades use their experience honed ability to coordinate.

I don't get mad cause my enemy can coordinate better that the deaf and mute. I was in quite a few matches PUGging and watch what a real team does in game as I saw 4-6 Mechs forming up and gunning down m team from Spectator mode. It was especially enlightening to watch from 3pV!

Your premise starts with a put down so should be discounted as such. Argue the merits rather than your prejudices.

[Blurry]

I agree totally and why I quit playing. solo q should have been implemented but they cant do it. they dont have the people power and the will.
Besides all those awesome 4 man assault drops wrecking face would quit the game if they couldnt pug stomp people. They dont ever want to have an EVEN fight - they will only fight on an uneven winning in their favour or they take their ball and go home. It is all over the forums and that is why there will be no solo q. Teams cant handle it they dont ever want a fair fight.

Remember 1 thing most expensive mechs are?
Right

what do they wont to sell the most of?
Right

Nothing will ever change - sorry but they make the most money and are the most fun according to PGI so it will never ever change period.

Edited by Blurry, 20 December 2013 - 04:44 AM.

[Blurry]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 December 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

Yup. PUGs need VOiP so they can swear to each other when Pre Mades use their experience honed ability to coordinate.

I don't get mad cause my enemy can coordinate better that the deaf and mute. I was in quite a few matches PUGging and watch what a real team does in game as I saw 4-6 Mechs forming up and gunning down m team from Spectator mode. It was especially enlightening to watch from 3pV!

your accusation is false.
It is the premades who wont play without the ability to pug stomp.
They refuse to fight a fair fight and will only fight when the huge advantage is on their side - how about just give a solo q?
Why not cant fight on your own? need to be carried?cant do anything without being told what to do? cant think for yourself?

[Joseph Mallan]

Blurry, on 20 December 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

your accusation is false.
It is the premades who wont play without the ability to pug stomp.
They refuse to fight a fair fight and will only fight when the huge advantage is on their side - how about just give a solo q?
Why not cant fight on your own? need to be carried?cant do anything without being told what to do? cant think for yourself?

You say this as if a Pre made play does not PUG. I am here to tell you that once again you are wrong. I PUG a lot, I have n problem losing to a team that is using tools I could be using if I chose to.3 of the last 4 days I have been on line I have PUGged. Spare me your rage, I am not impressed. As a PUG my win loss record is almost the same(54%) as my Team percentage(58%). Cry me a river, I am not impressed.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 20 December 2013 - 05:21 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Oh the lulz.

For one thing saying Elo doesn't work is like saying math doesn't work. If you don't understand it that's fine, I get why it must frustrate you. That doesn't mean it doesn't work. Can it be improved? Absolutely - I and others have gone over how a few times.

If they put VOIP in the game most people will turn it off. If someone can download and install MW:O they can download and install T3. Not everyone wants to listen to people giving bad advice, screaming at their mom for more pizza rolls, shouting Leroy Jenkins or all the other amazing stuff that open VOIP provides.

I drop premade without VOIP and still kick teams to the curb. You pay attention, stick together and coordinate. You hold your point on the line and don't scurry away when someone shoots at you, you don't abandon your teammates to the enemy in the hopes of buying yourself a little extra time before you're run to ground. It's not the voip it's the coordination and mutual trust that gives teams an edge. It's going in with a plan and sticking to it.

I'm all for splitting pug and premade Elo, I'd absolutely go for a solo only queue if the game had the population to support it, the problem is that the team queue would empty. I'm already seeing a 90 second wait to find a match, would you go 3 or 4 minutes?

Like Joseph Mallan said, this persecution idea that there's this nebulous group of evil, hyper-coordinated premade teams meeting in shadowy rooms and coordinating their pugstomps are just silly. I've trounced premade teams while on a team of pugs. You're as likely to drop on a team with premades as against them. You probably have a premade on your team when you're getting stomped, just the other team was better. Sometimes the other team is better for one reason or another. Sometimes that's due to better coordination, sometimes it's luck, sometimes it's skill.

Gaussian Elo distribution, split premade/pug Elo, balance within a range and not high/low for a target even if there's a bit of a deviation, you'd get better matches and a thicker population density for all but the top/bottom few percent who can be used as filler.

[Screech]

Elo does work, it just doesn't have much to work with. Tonnage limits might help some but unless they fix SRM it probably just will make the meta worse. What this game really needs is a reason to form full groups which is at best 9 months away. Buckle up it will be a bumpy ride.

[Bhael Fire]

Skirmish mode should be for solo players only. That would fix the problem instantly and would give Skirmish a reason for existing.

As for Elo and MM, hopefully weight limits will help once they implement them.

[Sandpit]

I'm glad someone finally got the nerve to post about this

[Black Ivan]

Indeed.

Match making is horrible at best. I didn't enjoy many of the matches I played during the last months.

[wwiiogre]

Well thanks for the responses, yet none of you addressed my point that matchmaker is not working. I do not care about voip and play with it as much as without is since I pug drop as well as 4man and sometimes 12 man when we can find a game since 12 mans are basically abandoned at this time.

ELO does not work if it does not take into consideration, tonnage and equipment (including cost of modules). When ELO uses win/loss and k/d as its balancing point. It loses focus on how much a difference placing 2 or 3 4man teams on one vs 12 randoms or even 2 or 3 person drops. All of that is meaningless on small maps no matter which game mode is seleceted. Cause in conquest on River City if you out tonnage the other team by a wide margin you can sit at theta and just blob towards the enemy and control three points and win.

On assault and skirmish, if you out tonnage the other team you just stomp them. Since ELO uses absolutely no tonnage in its equation it is broken, since it does not use cost of mechs and equipment it is broken and can never be balanced. All it currently does is try to put you on a bad team if your w/l is to high. It does not make the game balanced or fun.

By dropping in my 55 ton wolverines since Tuesday, I have been 95% of the time on the low tonnage team. I drop on any type of game so I usually have very little wait time. But at this point I can only play conquest since the majority of the players are dropping heavy and assault since they get rewarded for doing so in cbills and xp and wins and kills.

How can this be good for new players? It isn't.

Pre mades are not the problem, lack of voip is not the problem. Rewarding Heavy/Assault play is the problem. A matchmaker that allows one team to out tonnage the other by more than 100 tons is broken. Or that allows one team to have 4 trial mechs and new players and the other to have none, is broken.

When a match ends and the score is 12-0, 12-1, 12-2 or even 12-3, the matchmaker is broken and that game was not balanced and probably was not fun for one team. When you string 20+ games together that all end that way, then it is no longer hear say, it is a given that the matchmaker is broken. ELO currently is not working.

Now, when I drop in a heavy or assault mech I win more than 75% of my matches, when I drop in a premade 4 man hvy/assault lance we win nearly 90% of our matches. Which means, matchmaker is broken. I am being rewarded for using a larger mech with more firepower. I am getting punished when I use a medium or light mech or when I am on a team with less than 6 assaults.

My original point stands, ELO/Matchmaker is broken and does not use relevant data in its formula to make a balanced fun game. It ignores tonnage, it ignores value of equipment and modules and it ignores experience of the pilot by not using number of drops as a reference. It also ignores premade teams and does not use that in the equation to balance teams. I have routinely seen games where one side had 2 or even 3 4 mans against a side with none. That should never happen with a matchmaker, never.

PGI, the last paragraph should be used for a new matchmaker system. Scrap ELO or incorporate the above info into it. Otherwise you are going to have a completely unbalanced game like it is right at this moment. Where there is no role warfare, where players are heavily rewarded for damage out put above all else. Where 2 of the 3 gamemodes require heavies and assaults to even have a remote possibility to win.

Chris

[Almond Brown]

Bhael Fire, on 20 December 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Skirmish mode should be for solo players only. That would fix the problem instantly and would give Skirmish a reason for existing.

As for Elo and MM, hopefully weight limits will help once they implement them.

Given that the other 2 modes are both played like Skirmish most times anyways, those who would complain can just keep doing their do and be no worse for wear really.

It is always interesting how some think a Solo only queue will solve the "getting stomped all the time" problem. If a 4 man is disallowed, then all that happens is 4 players on one Solo drop, form up, stay together and focus fire down the 12 brain-dead players on the other Solo team. Unless of course, the other Team decides to get some Guys/gals together and fight as a group. Whoa, now wouldn't that just be a new and novel thought process? LOL!

Edited by Almond Brown, 20 December 2013 - 10:17 AM.

[Bhael Fire]

Almond Brown, on 20 December 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

It is always interesting how some think a Solo only queue will solve the "getting stomped all the time" problem.

I can 100% guarantee that it would get rid of the "getting stomped all the time" problem. With a solo queue there would be more granularity and skill levels would be a closer match. There would still be the occasional landslide, but it won't be because the other team is superior.

[MischiefSC]

@OP;

Part of the problem here is that you don't seem to understand how the MM works. It does take tonnage into consideration. It gives the best tonnage match it can within 2 minutes of you hitting 'launch'. It also attempts to match the players on both teams to a 'target Elo' via balancing Elo scores on both teams. It gives teams in a premade group a 'bump' to their score, making them count higher. It also attempts to place an equal number of premade teams on both sides so you won't have 3 premades on 1 side and none on the other.

If you are '95% on the low tonnage team' that means you played at least 20 games and in only 1 game your side was the high-tonnage one. My recommendation is to buy a lottery ticket. To calculate that probability you'd do it via inverse probability - there's a 50/50 chance of either outcome in each match, it would be reflected thus: (2ⁿ-1)/2ⁿ. That means you'd use a calculator and take 1 divided by 2, then divide that by 2 and repeat a total of 19 times. The statistical probability in a set of 20 opportunities with only 2 outcomes (high tonnage/low tonnage) is ~0.00019%, or 1 in 526,315. It can happen but I find it unlikely.

Now, can you lose 19 out of 20 games in a row? Yes, that's far more likely as win/loss has a wider range of probability than which side has the most tonnage. Without knowing all the variables I couldn't predict it but I've had losing streaks of over 12 games. I've played a few thousand though so that's not unexpected.

Part of the problem is actually how poorly balanced mediums are. Your performance equates to ~8.33% of your teams performance and if you're in a gimped mech you're increasing your teams odds of losing by almost 1 in 10. A medium is about the same speed as a heavy but far less well armed and armored. Assaults with XLs (Victors being a great example) have an almost exponential increase in performance due to their ability to load high pinpoint damage weapons in high number and still maintain decent speed.

We'd all agree there are balancing improvements that need made. Tonnage is not directly the issue however - ask anyone who's played in a 4man Jenner/Spider wolfpack and just butchered enemy teams game after game after game. It's a little more complicated than that. Also you're probably not accurately measuring your wins/losses. It's human nature, you'll remember negative outcomes far more often than positive ones.

Tonnage mismatch averages out. Due to the way Elo is handled though the quality of your teammates when you pug is far more variable and prone to wide, uneven swings. That's got a much, much larger impact on your odds of winning or losing than tonnage alone.

Edited by MischiefSC, 20 December 2013 - 11:08 AM.

[Conjure]

9 wins out of countless games the past three days. The many other games have been complete roflstomping losses. The wins totally one sided. No one listens, no ones sticks together, every one chases lights. It's like i went from playing with decent players the past month to newbs. I have a feeling that many experienced players aren't playing as much but who knows. I haven't had fun in mwo for 30+ games. That's a tough streak even for this mm.Before i'll get flamed by so called "pros" telling me to carry the team let me say this. It its not possible to carry anything when your entire team is spread across the friggin map and you are alone to face 6-10 mechs. Its not feasible. I don't care how good you are.

I don't feel I am not a bad player, i have over 1 mill experience and i average around 5-600 damage a match regardless of win or roflstomp loss. I have noticed the new spread on starting positions makes it even worse. And lately i have been having issues with people taking company command and running of in the distance not doing anything with it. I think if you don't use CC for issuing orders the game should strip it from you so some one else can.

I don't rant (or post) often but crimany I'm tired of it. The grind and weapon imbalances are bad enough. But I can almost deal with those if i'm playing with competent players. Maybe we can have a hardcore mode with no long radar and no red boxes to show you the enemy. That way we have a game mode that draws only skilled players. I have no problem with new layers, we need more. However I am sick of losing with them.

Edited by Conjure, 20 December 2013 - 05:35 PM.

[x TAZ x]

wwiiogre, on 20 December 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Well thanks for the responses, yet none of you addressed my point that matchmaker is not working. I do not care about voip and play with it as much as without is since I pug drop as well as 4man and sometimes 12 man when we can find a game since 12 mans are basically abandoned at this time.

ELO does not work if it does not take into consideration, tonnage and equipment (including cost of modules). When ELO uses win/loss and k/d as its balancing point. It loses focus on how much a difference placing 2 or 3 4man teams on one vs 12 randoms or even 2 or 3 person drops. All of that is meaningless on small maps no matter which game mode is seleceted. Cause in conquest on River City if you out tonnage the other team by a wide margin you can sit at theta and just blob towards the enemy and control three points and win.

By dropping in my 55 ton wolverines since Tuesday, I have been 95% of the time on the low tonnage team. I drop on any type of game so I usually have very little wait time. But at this point I can only play conquest since the majority of the players are dropping heavy and assault since they get rewarded for doing so in cbills and xp and wins and kills.

How can this be good for new players? It isn't.

When a match ends and the score is 12-0, 12-1, 12-2 or even 12-3, the matchmaker is broken and that game was not balanced and probably was not fun for one team. When you string 20+ games together that all end that way, then it is no longer hear say, it is a given that the matchmaker is broken. ELO currently is not working.

My original point stands, ELO/Matchmaker is broken and does not use relevant data in its formula to make a balanced fun game. It ignores tonnage, it ignores value of equipment and modules and it ignores experience of the pilot by not using number of drops as a reference. It also ignores premade teams and does not use that in the equation to balance teams. I have routinely seen games where one side had 2 or even 3 4 mans against a side with none. That should never happen with a matchmaker, never.

PGI, the last paragraph should be used for a new matchmaker system. Scrap ELO or incorporate the above info into it. Otherwise you are going to have a completely unbalanced game like it is right at this moment. Where there is no role warfare, where players are heavily rewarded for damage out put above all else. Where 2 of the 3 gamemodes require heavies and assaults to even have a remote possibility to win.

Chris

While I tend to agree that ELO is useless and the matchmaker is horrid at best, there is a simple, off-the-shelf solution already published. The Battle Value (BV) system in CBT is pretty fair. Regardless of tonnage, mechs are ranked on the chasis, equipment, and weapons, and armor loaded into them. These values are already published in books like Maximum Tech and Total Warfare. The concern is determining a BV for the pilot.
Because it is difficult to assess pilot skill and assign a status, it means a BV would be difficult to assign. Based on the outcome of a match, I have seen the roll of damage done by a pilot. I would suggest using this damage as a basis metric on average per weight class. I would then assign tiers to damage average to define a pilot as Green, Regular, Vetern, or Elite. I would have this damage average kick in at 25 matches in that weight class to define the pilot status. Each status has a BV and one pilot could be elite in lights, but green in heavies. That is realistic.

Using this model, matchmaker plays an adding game based on summation of BV for that pilot in that mech and matches the number to each team within say 5%. Matches would then be close, fun, and tactics/ role warfare would evolve geometrically from that.

In my humble opinion, this would work. I relish the few matches I lost or won by a 1-3 margin. As it stands right now, my best match with my 4-man is trying to come back from a 1 v 8 score to finish 8 v 12 in a loss. It was fun, but way unbalanced and should be the exception and not the rule.

[wwiiogre]

Mischief,

Actually I have very good knowledge on how ELO works, tonnage is so small in the equation that you still routinely get 200, 300 and even 450 ton mismatched games. How can tonnage be part of ELO when this happens all the time. Not once in a blue moon, not once in 20 games 5%, not once in 10 games 10% but nearly 50% of the time there is a serious tonnage mismatch. Anything over 100 tons difference between teams is a mismatch. It is the equivalent of having an extra Atlas on your team at 100 tons, 2 Atlas at 200 tons, etc. etc.

Now throw into the ELO mismatch balance the fact that it does not use cost of mech or cost of equipment and you get trial mechs on oneside and non trial mechs on the other. Once again almost always making the game a stomp.

Then add in 4 mans, when one side has an advantage in 4 mans it does not always mean they win, but the side with the most 4 mans will win a majority of the time.

Now take these three things together and you have a completely broken matchmaker. Because since Tuesday I have seen all three of these things more than 50% be on the same side. Meaning, one side has more 4mans, has elite level tricked out mechs and equipment and has a tonnage advantage sometimes upto 450 tons.

Nothing like starting a game and seeing 3 known 4man groups on the other side. Looking at your side and seeing 4 trial mechs, then asking your team if there are any 4mans on it and finding out all 12 are solo pugs with 4 newbs.

Since ELO allows that to happen, it is broken. There is no question it is broken. Using win/loss in the equation with a higher value than mech tonnage, equipment costs and number of pilot drops means the system was never meant to work. It was only ever meant to attempt to manage w/l ratios not make balanced games.

After playing yesterday on assault only all day. There were still overwhelming games that were unbalanced, but it was closer to 60/40. As opposed to 90/10 when I played on ANY game choice.

But since PGI rewards Heavies and Assaults with more cbills and xp for damage done. Then of course people will play in that style. Especially since the cbill nerf of 12 mans.

Currently there is no reason to play a light (except on conquest unless of course you get the small maps) or a medium mech at this time. You will not face fair and balanced opponents. You will not be rewarded for your hard work. It will take many extra days worth of grinding to gain xp.

I have finished my Wolverines thru basic, now I never have to play 2 of them again and can strip them. Now I am working my Griffins thru basic pilot trees.

Can I just say whomever chose to put all of the Griffin N's weapons in the right torso and arm, should pay me my money back for a worthless mech. Since everytime I face good opponents they just blow my arm or torso off and I am useless.

Now back to the grind and thanks everyone for the comments and thoughts, it is appreciated.

Chris