94 replies to this topic

[Craig Steele]

Ha ha ha ha, not my intent to make more work for you

SHD, thats interesting. It certainly performs recon roles. But potato potato I expect.

I am intrigued by your Timberwold entry though. I am looking through my sources now but I had a different understanding. I always thought it was a Clan Coyote design. The storyline was as I recall,

Clan Wolf focussed all R&D on infantry, believeing Mechs had reached their pinnacle and better Combined Arms would enhance Clan Wolf tourman
Clan Coyote develop Omni mech (2854)
Clan Jade Falcom wins Omnimech technicals in trial (2863)
Clan Coyoye tells Clan Wolf transit route of Clan Jade Falcom forces with technical data
Clan Wolf challenges and wins technical data from Clan Jade Falcon (2863)
Clan Wolf debuts Timberwolf in 2868 in Trials against Smoke Jaguar defending Elemental Battle armour.

But I do remember the "Woodsman" name from somewhere so I am looking, but I had thought Coyote design first deployed by Wolf. Probably somantics, your entry certainly slots neatly into the 5 year gap.

[dragnier1]

Someone mentioned woodsman as a clan non-omni designed before Coyote developed that tech.

From Sarna:
The first heavy OmniMech developed by Clan Wolf, the Woodsman was one of the most heavily tested weapons ever produced by the clan.

[Craig Steele]

dragnier1, on 11 January 2014 - 07:08 AM, said:

Someone mentioned woodsman as a clan non-omni designed before Coyote developed that tech.

From Sarna:
The first heavy OmniMech developed by Clan Wolf, the Woodsman was one of the most heavily tested weapons ever produced by the clan.

Sarna (while a strong source) has never been canon

Pg 41 Warden Clans Field Manual reads "within a few years of the Omnimechs debut, the total number of Coyote Omnimech designs increased to four, one for each weight class. Few warriors in other clans took notice until Clan Coyote demonstrated all the power and potential of the Omnimech in 2859." This suggests Coyote developed the first heavy omnimech and at a time no other clan had access to the technology.

Jade Falcon was "the first to win Omnimech technology" in 2863. The suggestion is that the Flacons got technical data on all four Omni's.

Clan wolf won the same Omnimech technical data off Clan Jade Falcon the same year (Coyote told them where it was so they could stage a trial)

Clan Wolf defended it's Elemental technology against Smoke Janguar in 2868 in a battle which (Crusader Clan Field Manual pg 136) "marked Clan wolf's first use of Omnimech technology as well as the highly successful Timberwolf design."

It's a reasonable time gap. My question would be if they were able to use Omnimech technology and knowing what we know about clan culture, why did they not use the Woodsman or other chassis prior to 2868?

Clan Wolf are hardly likely to not use the Woodsman in actual combat as a test of its abilities, so why would the Timberwolf be the first design they use as Omni's unless it was the original technical data gained from the Falcons.

The wording can be read both ways, it just doesn't flow for me.

There might be more canon (I am looking) but my take remains that the Timberwolf was a Coyote design first used by Clan wolf. Unless the Woodsman was not a heavy?

Ofc, the other side is why didn't Coyote use it before Wolf if they had it, for which I have no answer, so I search

[Alaskan Nobody]

Yeaaahh... I don't have any of the field manuals or the like (closest I have come to playing TT is MWT)

Only have a few books (maybe half a dozen or so) so sarna is where I got most of my info.
Kinda figured it wouldn't be 100% accurate though, what Wiki site is?

Edit: if you find an answer to your search, lemme know and I'll work it into the post - the omni section is rather lacking in some ways.

Edited by Shar Wolf, 11 January 2014 - 04:18 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Well, I admit defeat.

Sarna clearly refers to the Woodsman as the predecessor of the Timberwolf, but it also says the Timberwolf was not produced until 2945 (almost 80 years after the Field Manuals state it debuted) so I am not sold on the Sarna data

But my search for other references hasn't turned anything up either. Soooooooo... lol, go with what we know

[Tyrnea Smurf]

Don't ever discount the great force that is retconing. A lot of the fluff has been reworked over the years and quite a few entries in sourcebooks, TRO, and field manuals will contradict each other.

My guess about the divergent dates on the Timberwolf's debut would be based on the dates of when the original source material was written.

If that Sourcebook your quoting is close to an original clan introductory source, then the original fluff was to give players a date of when that Omni made it appearance. (and given both its popularity, and that's its one of the original clan machines its not unreasonable that early fluff on it would show a close to original invention of Omni technology production date)

Then if later on another group of fluff writers decided to sell a book with yet more clan machines bridging the gap during the 200 years between Omni tech invention and the clan invasion, and they simply created a class of intermediate Omnimechs as design stepping stones from the Mercury to the Timberwolf. If that's the case, then those later fluff writers would stretch out the dates of when what was built when.

Trouble is when pulling from user edited sources like Sarna, you never are quite sure which version of which sources they are pulling the entries from in the first place, and if the entry is correct at all.

[Bront]

Arnold J Rimmer, on 25 December 2013 - 03:33 AM, said:

The most amazing scout mech ever? Of all time?

Meh, it's not an Atlas.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

Bront, on 12 January 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

Meh, it's not an Atlas.

Spot the sodding Lyran...

[Alaskan Nobody]

Shifted the firestarter up

....this has not been abandoned (yet) but I am having some trouble summarizing some of those mechs

[Koniving]

Shar Wolf, on 20 December 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

Jenner

The Jenner also has another interesting trademark in history. A red and black Jenner stomping through the streets as (conquered) citizens of the Draconis Combine (formerly of the Federated Suns), are slaughtered by soldiers of the Draconis Combine. Lasers vaporizing men, women, and children. Missiles destroying buildings with people inside. During the madness, soldiers were ordered to stop, holster their rifles and instead draw their swords...and then carry on.

"Kill them all," an order stated in a very calm yet iced voice by one Jinjiro Kurita ended the lives of millions on a mass genocide. Over time, he left to personally view his vengeance personified. The terrified crew of his Daimyo HQ vehicle began transmitting the footage of the massacre to Comstar the instant he left it. When discovered they were all executed by the sword. Later, even as Combine troops stormed the Kentares HPG station, head of the station Commander Nolan Mordiki continued to broadcast even with a cease and desist order from Comstar itself. He was later promoted in a 'turnaround' by Comstar, who claim they never protested against bringing the massacre to light.

In the end, between 2796 and 2797, Kentares IV had 90% of its population exterminated. Over 52 million civilians dead, several million of them chased down and killed by swords. Black and red Jenner patrols. Then Jinjiro Kurita left. Upon his departure, all of his troops were demoralized. Manycommitted seppuku. Those who could live with it still considered it a personal loss of honor to have killed so many civilians.

In honor of those who died, a memorial was made.

Naturally it provided little comfort.

Edited by Koniving, 08 February 2014 - 06:05 PM.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

Koniving, on 08 February 2014 - 06:02 PM, said:

Jenner fluff

As I remember it, the sniper who killed Jinjiro's father (the catalyst for the Kentares IV massacre) also later committed suicide, because he felt directly responsible for those tens of millions dead.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Koniving, on 08 February 2014 - 06:02 PM, said:

..........

Ooh, probably aught to add that in somehow (without overwhelming the new people XD)

[Koniving]

Shar Wolf, on 08 February 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

Ooh, probably aught to add that in somehow (without overwhelming the new people XD)

Just a link to the post oughta do.

Lots of people are really looking for where the depth and story is, but not many know about there actually being a history and dozens upon dozens of novels. Then there are some who'd like some context without having to go book hunting.

So it'll satisfy some cravings I hope.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Great - how do you link to a specific post?

[Koniving]

Shar Wolf, on 08 February 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

Great - how do you link to a specific post?

The #70 in the upper right corner of that post has a direct link to said post.

Or you could copy/paste the link hidden here.

[Craig Steele]

Koniving, on 08 February 2014 - 06:02 PM, said:

"Kill them all," an order stated in a very calm yet iced voice by one Jinjiro Kurita ended the lives of millions on a mass genocide.

In honor of those who died, a memorial was made.

Naturally it provided little comfort.

Alledgely one officer asked for clarity of what 'all' meant when he gave that order and was promptly shot dead in front of the assembled Combine HQ, no wonder they carried out the order....

On the memorial, sometimes the BT guys really let themselves down. A memorial to the slain is the Fed Suns sunburst and sword, I mean really?

[Alaskan Nobody]

Craig Steele, on 08 February 2014 - 07:54 PM, said:

On the memorial, sometimes the BT guys really let themselves down. A memorial to the slain is the Fed Suns sunburst and sword, I mean really?

Take a look at some of the memorials we have here on Earth.
Though specifics elude me at the moment - some of them seem pretty darn counter-intuitive.

Thinking about the fact that the Combine is pretty ashamed of the massacre from what I read - it could be perceived as a peace offering of sorts (which makes about as much sense as it sounds - and yet here the US keeps offering peace offerings to it's enemies.....)

Edited by Shar Wolf, 08 February 2014 - 08:09 PM.

[Koniving]

Craig Steele, on 08 February 2014 - 07:54 PM, said:

Alledgely one officer asked for clarity of what 'all' meant when he gave that order and was promptly shot dead in front of the assembled Combine HQ, no wonder they carried out the order....

On the memorial, sometimes the BT guys really let themselves down. A memorial to the slain is the Fed Suns sunburst and sword, I mean really?

The slain were Davion (Federated Suns) under Kurita Occupation.

Sunburst, sword, and the Dragon of the Draconis Combine being slain by the hand of the fallen. The dragon's tail reaching up to try and pull it out. Or so that's how I perceive it.

But yes the use of a sword did strike me as an odd insult to injury going both ways.

The real question is who erected the memorial? I'm thinking the Federated Suns (Davions) considering that the planet was retaken. But since I don't know the fate of that specific Kuritan, it is possible that the memorial was offered as an apology by the Draconis Combine. My knowledge as to the conclusion is a bit limited as I'm still enjoying that book.

Edited by Koniving, 08 February 2014 - 08:46 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Koniving, on 08 February 2014 - 08:10 PM, said:

The slain were Davion (Federated Suns) under Kurita Occupation.

Sunburst, sword, and the Dragon of the Draconis Combine being slain by the hand of the fallen. The dragon's tail reaching up to try and pull it out. Or so that's how I perceive it.

But yes the use of a sword did strike me as an odd insult to injury going both ways.

The real question is who erected the memorial? I'm thinking the Federated Suns (Davions) considering that the planet was retaken. But since I don't know the fate of that specific Kuritan, it is possible that the memorial was offered as an apology by the Draconis Combine. My knowledge as to the conclusion is a bit limited as I'm still enjoying that book.

Pretty sure it was done by Fed Suns, I can't imagine Jinjiro would permit it going up. Davion took back the planet around 2808.

Jinjiro remained co ordinator until 2835, when Zabu took over. He was mad as a hatter by now and guards had to "restrain" him during bouts of mania.

In 2837 he got a 'gift' from an unknown source, a small doll of a Star League officer which sent him completly bonkers, he was then committed and evenutall hung himself in 2841.

Edited by Craig Steele, 08 February 2014 - 09:01 PM.

[Koniving]

And if that isn't a reason to love the Dragons, I don't know what is.

Meanwhile in Chinese/Russian/other mixed societies with heavy Chinese influence and current-Chinese-government-style under the reign of a Chancellor, we of the Capellan Confederation enjoy much more peaceful lives. So long as we do our duty and never speak out against the greater good.

Seriously. They'll kill you.