303 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

babadude71, on 02 January 2014 - 04:37 PM, said:

so i think that the new payer experience is vital to the longevity of this game, if it is dependent on community funds i.e players buying stuff with real money than it is essential to maintain a relatively large pool of players.

With the experience the new players are getting at the moment isnt what i would call encouraging or a very pleasant introduction to the game, but there are some experienced players that see no problem with that, but at the end of the day its not their company that needs the injection of cash to keep it going so what do they care if new players leave or stay, so with this type of attitude would it bother you if you went to log onto to the game and all you got was server error, goto the website where it clearly states
"servers have been shut down due to lack of player interest."
Is this what you are after?
Would you of wished that you had safe guarded the new player experience to ensure the game remains functional, instead of telling new players that they didnt need any help in understanding how to play the game all because you didnt?

I think it is far better to be pro-active instead of reactive, just because thats how you learnt how to play the game does it then make it right for others to learn it that way also?

I know it would require some programming and time and maybe some extra staff but, put some of the smaller maps aside (2 should be enough) with some A.I mechs roaming around and allow that area for all sorts of purposes, very similar to the training grounds now, that alone would allow a new player to get accustom to mech controls and weapon load outs, movement skills, using jump jets and experience terrain hazards such as climbing etc, also learn how to take cover from LRM fire, counter act ecm and learn some of the technical aspects of the game, as well as aiming techniques against moving targets.

It may solve a few issues already outlined in this thread, it will also prepare the new players for 12 v 12 matches, again i think that new players should experience the 8 v 8 that i have heard alot of you talk about, it will be a good incentive to keep them playing and more importantly spending real money.
I also think that the experienced player wont feel as though they have been dealt a bum hand of mechs and dis-heartened that they will have to carry yet another batch of noobs. I believe that something like this needs to be introduced into the game to give a pool of players a chance to build so that the match making system can be tested fully and properly and give a more polished and competent feel to the whole MWO experience, but i do understand that before any of this can take place the development team need to put outstanding in-game content top of their priority list and hopefully bring this game back to the front of the F2P game title list.

Wouldn't it just be much simpler to have a cadet queue and have vets from the community apply to drop with them as trainers to help and offer tips and advice
This ensures that they get to learn more about the game without getting stomped by veterans and requires much fewer resources for pgi to implement

[BLOOD WOLF]

babadude71, on 02 January 2014 - 04:37 PM, said:

so i think that the new payer experience is vital to the longevity of this game, if it is dependent on community funds i.e players buying stuff with real money than it is essential to maintain a relatively large pool of players.

With the experience the new players are getting at the moment isnt what i would call encouraging or a very pleasant introduction to the game, but there are some experienced players that see no problem with that, but at the end of the day its not their company that needs the injection of cash to keep it going so what do they care if new players leave or stay, so with this type of attitude would it bother you if you went to log onto to the game and all you got was server error, goto the website where it clearly states
"servers have been shut down due to lack of player interest."
Is this what you are after?
Would you of wished that you had safe guarded the new player experience to ensure the game remains functional, instead of telling new players that they didnt need any help in understanding how to play the game all because you didnt?

I think it is far better to be pro-active instead of reactive, just because thats how you learnt how to play the game does it then make it right for others to learn it that way also?

I know it would require some programming and time and maybe some extra staff but, put some of the smaller maps aside (2 should be enough) with some A.I mechs roaming around and allow that area for all sorts of purposes, very similar to the training grounds now, that alone would allow a new player to get accustom to mech controls and weapon load outs, movement skills, using jump jets and experience terrain hazards such as climbing etc, also learn how to take cover from LRM fire, counter act ecm and learn some of the technical aspects of the game, as well as aiming techniques against moving targets.

It may solve a few issues already outlined in this thread, it will also prepare the new players for 12 v 12 matches, again i think that new players should experience the 8 v 8 that i have heard alot of you talk about, it will be a good incentive to keep them playing and more importantly spending real money.
I also think that the experienced player wont feel as though they have been dealt a bum hand of mechs and dis-heartened that they will have to carry yet another batch of noobs. I believe that something like this needs to be introduced into the game to give a pool of players a chance to build so that the match making system can be tested fully and properly and give a more polished and competent feel to the whole MWO experience, but i do understand that before any of this can take place the development team need to put outstanding in-game content top of their priority list and hopefully bring this game back to the front of the F2P game title list.

and maybe the main solution shouldn't always be to join a group because not everybody can for various reasons

[NRP]

Nevermind

Edited by NRP, 02 January 2014 - 04:54 PM.

[babadude71]

Sandpit, on 02 January 2014 - 04:42 PM, said:

Wouldn't it just be much simpler to have a cadet queue and have vets from the community apply to drop with them as trainers to help and offer tips and advice
This ensures that they get to learn more about the game without getting stomped by veterans and requires much fewer resources for pgi to implement

wouldnt that require some form of comms?
using a txt form of chat during a fight can be off putting, i've tried n died doing so, yes links can be given to ts, but that would require downloading / installing / setting up, some may have it already gr8. I just think that having the training grounds with A.I mechs for players to learn the very basics would suit the front end of this game, your suggestion would be good for the next stage 8 v 8 to establish tactical and map knowledge from an experienced player, who has perhaps 2 modes, aerial mode (cant see enemy mechs) and spectator mode, with voice comms to talk directly to the pilot for instruction purposes.
I would love to do that, but i dont have enough experience as yet to be of any use in that aspect of the game.

[Sandpit]

babadude71, on 02 January 2014 - 04:53 PM, said:

wouldnt that require some form of comms?
using a txt form of chat during a fight can be off putting, i've tried n died doing so, yes links can be given to ts, but that would require downloading / installing / setting up, some may have it already gr8. I just think that having the training grounds with A.I mechs for players to learn the very basics would suit the front end of this game, your suggestion would be good for the next stage 8 v 8 to establish tactical and map knowledge from an experienced player, who has perhaps 2 modes, aerial mode (cant see enemy mechs) and spectator mode, with voice comms to talk directly to the pilot for instruction purposes.
I would love to do that, but i dont have enough experience as yet to be of any use in that aspect of the game.

No sarcasm here but do you really think very basic and rudimentary AI (because anything beyond that is just asking for them to dedicate a lot of time and resources from the mm aspect regardless of how "easy" it would be to do) is going to help them be competitive against the human opponents they're going to face?

If so I just don't agree. It would do nothing but frustrate them further and even if you incorporate voip (which is sorely needed regardless) I still think that would require less resources than trying to code, program, and implement ai

[PictishWolf]

Sandpit, on 02 January 2014 - 03:04 PM, said:

Well I enjoy and appreciate the honesty

Here's the thing
Even if they did create separate queues like some are wailing and flailing for
Does anyone honestly believe there aren't veteran pug players (who you would incidentally face more often due to smaller queues) that are going to stomp the dog poo out of new players?
Not to mention the fact that the min max kdr type players who care about their stats above all else would just drop pug style to continue getting easier kills regardless continuing stomps as well as the more devious that would just sync drop to continue dropping with veteran buddies against the new players
The whole separate queue idea actually compounds the problem, not solve it

That's exactly my question, I guess. Is it impossible to fix? To me, your reply seems to show that there is no workable solution. If so, I guess that means that we should either learn to just tolerate the hours of disheartening fail and enjoy those few spare moments of fun or abandon the game altogether. That's what I've been doing so far.

Anecdotally, I had a chance to play a lot the night before last. We had 7 losses in a row: 6 roflstomps and 1 where we managed to kill more than half of the enemy. I was in a 3-man group on TS. We then won 2, barely, then had 4 more roflstomps. I was averaging 300-500 damage and 1-2 kills, so I didn't feel too terrible about it. Then a couple of players switched out and one of the new guys was a natural leader (I am definitely not). We won 7 of the next 8 matches.

I guess the point of that story was that effective communication of a good leader > four decent followers & no leader. That, in my experience, is equally important, if not more so, than having elite players on the team. YMMV.

[Michael Abt]

PictishWolf, on 02 January 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

That's exactly my question, I guess. Is it impossible to fix? To me, your reply seems to show that there is no workable solution. If so, I guess that means that we should either learn to just tolerate the hours of disheartening fail and enjoy those few spare moments of fun or abandon the game altogether. That's what I've been doing so far.

Anecdotally, I had a chance to play a lot the night before last. We had 7 losses in a row: 6 roflstomps and 1 where we managed to kill more than half of the enemy. I was in a 3-man group on TS. We then won 2, barely, then had 4 more roflstomps. I was averaging 300-500 damage and 1-2 kills, so I didn't feel too terrible about it. Then a couple of players switched out and one of the new guys was a natural leader (I am definitely not). We won 7 of the next 8 matches.

I guess the point of that story was that effective communication of a good leader > four decent followers & no leader. That, in my experience, is equally important, if not more so, than having elite players on the team. YMMV.

There are solutions, just no final ones. Enough players will always look for loopholes, weaknesses, exploits, and try to bend the rules as much as possible to gain an advantage, and i am not even talking about cheating here. There is a reason for the never ending cycle of 'buff and nerf' in so many games.

Anyway, the idea of some kind of player tutorial is nice. It gives rookies a chance to learn basics and advanced tactics, asking for advice and getting useful hints. Despite such a help there will still be a lot of lost matches but at least the player may now have an idea what he/she could have done better.

Thinking of it, the spectator mode could be used and improved as one option for a player tutorial.

Edited by Michael Abt, 02 January 2014 - 05:50 PM.

[Nick Makiaveli]

BLOOD WOLF, on 02 January 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

what it means to the community, or what it means to the people who are ignorant enough to use it without sense. I not once heard any of the mates i group with use the word pug in the way the so called community does, once in a joke i think but that's it. One the note, sounds like you agree with me, A strong few are not the community.

Just because its common doesn't mean its correct.

I don't think you understand how jargon works. It means whatever the group using it wants it to mean? What does CRT mean to you? My first thought is Cathode Ray Tube, ie the old CRT monitors. My second thought is Crisis Response Team since while I am a born geek, I also have a background in LE.

See where I am going with this? If this group calls the random teams tossed together by the MM a PUG, then that's the MWO definition of PUG. FTR, when I played WoW we called the random dungeon groups PUGs btw....

BLOOD WOLF, on 02 January 2014 - 04:42 PM, said:

and maybe the main solution shouldn't always be to join a group because not everybody can for various reasons

"Main solution"? It's common because it works for the majority who try it. Those that can't are few and far between. We have DHB members who don't have working mics and they listen in and communicate via Lance/Team chat. If you have speakers, TS is an option.

Now, yes some people can't use it because their PC won't run it, they are deaf/mute, etc etc. But that is a tiny minority, so why would you expect the majority solution to apply to the minority? The "main solution" by definition is the one that works for the majority. Some people are left out of just about every solution, that's sad but it's not a reason to screw over everyone.

Or do you think they should ban TS since some can't use it? I shouldn't be allowed to chat with my buds since some people can't?

[Praehotec8]

FupDup, on 02 January 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

It was a clothes game.

Strip-warrior Online?

[Sandpit]

PictishWolf, on 02 January 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

That's exactly my question, I guess. Is it impossible to fix? To me, your reply seems to show that there is no workable solution. If so, I guess that means that we should either learn to just tolerate the hours of disheartening fail and enjoy those few spare moments of fun or abandon the game altogether. That's what I've been doing so far.

Anecdotally, I had a chance to play a lot the night before last. We had 7 losses in a row: 6 roflstomps and 1 where we managed to kill more than half of the enemy. I was in a 3-man group on TS. We then won 2, barely, then had 4 more roflstomps. I was averaging 300-500 damage and 1-2 kills, so I didn't feel too terrible about it. Then a couple of players switched out and one of the new guys was a natural leader (I am definitely not). We won 7 of the next 8 matches.

I guess the point of that story was that effective communication of a good leader > four decent followers & no leader. That, in my experience, is equally important, if not more so, than having elite players on the team. YMMV.

I don't think there will ever be a complete abolishment of stomps and they shouldn't completely.
High levels of skill along with strategy and tactics should rise to the top and all things even in regards to player skill levels a team using tactics and teamwork should win.

No matter how well you adjust the mm and such you will always have that 10% that live mi vida derp and go full Rambo laying the groundwork for their team to get stomped

[Ghogiel]

Sandpit, on 02 January 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

No matter how well you adjust the mm and such you will always have that 10% that live mi vida derp and go full Rambo laying the groundwork for their team to get stomped

Damn right.

And to offset the inevitable scrubs that get put on my team while solo I'll carry harder.

[mongrel]

I have to say enough is enough. Just got done with a match where the other team had 6 assault mechs ( 3 lrm stalkers 2 highlanders & a vic) we had 1. Most of our mechs were a smattering of maybe 2 heavies & a mish mash of lighter mediums & lights. The other team had 4 heavies a raven & a blackjack. So tired of these lopsided games takes lights for ever to get thru that much armor & with the light mech nerf a while back they are easy pickens any more. I am a battletech/MechWarrior fan boy for over 20 years that has actually considering quiting MWO due to the issues like this.

[Navy Sixes]

Varent, on 02 January 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

That whole mindset of villifying people that group up and communicate perplexes me.... I dont think I could truly contemplate playing a game like this alone... I mean I pug every once in awhile... but.. ya....

Exclusive solo PUGger, here.

I don't vilify anyone unless they're underneath a red triangle or they are making my job (defeating everyone under a red triangle) harder. Most often, prem squads are a blessing (if they're any good) or they're at least harmless (if they're not). One of the guys from the Forgotten 8th (Myrcus, maybe? I can't remember) started a great thread about how awesome PUG matches can be for prems that work with their solo teammates. I absolutely endorse this sentiment.

My problem is with troll-squads that view the rest of their PUG teammates as chaff to damage the enemy and die until they decide to mop up. They don't communicate with anyone else on the team. They don't want to form any kind of comprehensive plan. They sure as hell aren't going to follow anyone else's command. Then they hang back or wander off, only springing into action so they can rack up kills once the rest of us are dead. When I see those guys come up on the ready screen (no name and shame, but you know who you are) I always know that if I'm going to live through this match, I'm going to have to play my heart out like I've got four discos on my team so they can enjoy beating up on the ammo-dry crippled and pad their stats. And that, sir, is a colossal drag for which there is no excuse. By far more frustrating than ghost heat, hit reg, or any of the other noise everyone says is what's worst with the game.

As for playing the game alone. I've never dropped with a team, so I won't say it's better or worse, just want to tell you what I'm about. When I drop, I'm working on my skills as an individual. The fundamentals, like heat management, situational awareness, and my aim. I'm working with my team as best I can, but, win or lose, I'm appraising my own abilities during the match (What did I do right? What did I do wrong? How can I be better?) In the end winning the match is paramount, for all of us (prem or solo) so if there is an opportunity to sacrifice my mech for the win, I want to be able to recognize it and execute. If I do and we still lose, than I see it as little more than a Leeroy, and I need to work on that. If I carry hard but we don't pull it off, I come away with a well-fought match in which I more than pulled my weight. Conversely, if I have an off game and we still win, I'm not really satisfied and try to understand why I underperformed.

Either way, the satisfaction I get from solo PUGing is testing my abilities as an individual.

[Sephlock]

[babadude71]

Sandpit, on 02 January 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

No sarcasm here but do you really think very basic and rudimentary AI (because anything beyond that is just asking for them to dedicate a lot of time and resources from the mm aspect regardless of how "easy" it would be to do) is going to help them be competitive against the human opponents they're going to face?

If so I just don't agree. It would do nothing but frustrate them further and even if you incorporate voip (which is sorely needed regardless) I still think that would require less resources than trying to code, program, and implement ai

Honestly i would of appreciated the choice of having such a front end to the game that would have given me a little time to get used to the driving mechanics of a mech before jumping into a 12 v 12 match, having someone teach me about the weapons and maps and other technical aspects of the game would of been a great help as i have asked many times during a match questions about the game, and the response was either silence or abuse, although the silence was the most common and the abuse was probably someone who was frustrated with having to drop with noobs.

To have the option / opportunity to indulge in an A.I scenario to practice would not just benefit new players and give them an experience that would endorse a return, but it would also benefit those that are experienced in the sense of managing the host state rewind with their ping, whether to lead the target or to try and hit the *** end, its a feature that i perceive to benefit almost all players and the option is there to use it or not, i for one would use it quite regular when i desire to try out a new weapon that i havent used as yet.

As for your suggestion with a experienced player volunteering to drop into the cadet queue and teach for abit, i briefly mentioned a proposal of how that could be handled, the teacher has 2 modes of play Aerial and Spectator:-

Aerial : this mode enables the teacher to view his pupils position and guide and explain about certain advantages and disadvantages of terrain types and their current position, whilst in this mode he will not be able to see enemy mechs but will have an over view of the battle field, very similar to that used by the commentator during the launch of MWO.

Spectator: This mode enables the teacher to vocally communicate directly to the pilot he is spectating giving appropriate advice where needed, pointing out weak spots on variants of mechs, heat management, how to effectively use ecm etc

It would a detrimental to the new player if the experienced player was also in a mech and engaging in combat as it is more than likely some one is going to abuse this and kill all enemy mechs with a phrase like
"and here endith your first lesson"
okay its funny but not really accomplishing the objective of the learning area, so the teacher, watches and advises whilst the new players are put against other new players in a small map where there are no more than 8 players per side + 1 teacher per side.

If you like its a step up from the A.I training grounds and 1 step away from 12 v 12 full fledged battles, but these training areas are optional in no way at all are they compulsory unless of course the development team introduce some form of a ranking system to determine at what level of difficulty is player is currently achieving. This type of system works, it gives goals which are achievable which brings people back and keeps players playing, boosts confidence and moral and gives a far better polished and complete feel to the game without stamping on the experienced player by making them play with complete new players a better experience all round, it also has the potential of taking away the easy mode for 12 v 12 matches because everyone will have a good understanding of the mechanics of the game and a pretty good knowledge of the maps and the technical workings of the modules.

Some of us will like this idea and some wont, but the purpose of this isnt to appease those of you that have already learnt the fundamentals of the game and become good at it, but more to help and keep new players and build a larger pool of players, we have already acknowledged that player retention is a problem and this needs to be addressed by us all if we wish this game to sustain longevity and run it's course.

No Players, No Funding, No Game

[Mudhutwarrior]

No one is vilifying premades. The opposition uses "evil premades" as a tool to turn the argument. In reality its a small number of teams that pug stomp but it does tarnish the others to a degree. Same as in real life.

The issue is structure and available tools. In game Voip has been around since 1999 so on its face the argument against is just crazy.

If you look back though this thread you will see no one countered my premise that in any military engagement. Communications, Timely Intell and squad familiarity in their roles doesn't insure victory but greatly increases the odds by and order of magnitude. It cannot be argued against as its is a reality in Human History.

My vision for pugs would be lobbies, In game voip and the option to drop with pugs only or any.

It will not stop stomps and as pointed out those seeking to exploit will still do it. What it will do is reduce it a great deal thereby increase the experience value for pugs, Noobs and casuals.

So simple and relatively easy to do all at once or in steps if the numbers wont support it. The real question in all this is why the resistance? Resistance greater than with most any subject covered on the forum. I will leave it up to you to figure that out..

[Joseph Mallan]

Varent, on 02 January 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

I will say your foolish to think there is no advantage. But I will say the amount of advantage there is based off those that are droping together. How much they coordinate there builds, how much they communicate and how good they are with those builds and at the game in general. Some people in a premade can be just as much a detriment as a boon depending on those factors.

However it is an advantage any gamer should know how to take themselves. I am new to On line gaming, I downloaded TS for the first time a month after I started playing MW:O But I knew about Skype cause my daughter and her friends played Boarderlands(or some similar game) while I was playing Dragon Age!

Cos will help and hinder this game. It'll help cause those players who reuse to use whatever is already in place, will have comms. It will hinder cause... well Jackholes will be Jackhoes!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 03 January 2014 - 04:22 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 03 January 2014 - 04:19 AM, said:

No one is vilifying premades. The opposition uses "evil premades" as a tool to turn the argument. In reality its a small number of teams that pug stomp but it does tarnish the others to a degree. Same as in real life.

The issue is structure and available tools. In game Voip has been around since 1999 so on its face the argument against is just crazy.

If you look back though this thread you will see no one countered my premise that in any military engagement. Communications, Timely Intell and squad familiarity in their roles doesn't insure victory but greatly increases the odds by and order of magnitude. It cannot be argued against as its is a reality in Human History.

My vision for pugs would be lobbies, In game voip and the option to drop with pugs only or any.

It will not stop stomps and as pointed out those seeking to exploit will still do it. What it will do is reduce it a great deal thereby increase the experience value for pugs, Noobs and casuals.

So simple and relatively easy to do all at once or in steps if the numbers wont support it. The real question in all this is why the resistance? Resistance greater than with most any subject covered on the forum. I will leave it up to you to figure that out..

Nobody countered you cause it is a Duh statement. In fact, you are just paraphrasing what I told you. That being the best team wins. That means the group that works together a communicates best.

As to exploiting a service available to all players... What of it? Seriously, We all know it is there. We all can use it. I know there are teams out there using it when I PUG, and I accept that reality. After all, it is a team game! And if I choose to handicap myself and my team by playing in silence, why should I vilify the guys smart enough to actually take the steps to improve their game play???

[XX Sulla XX]

The truth is even if new players are only playing other new players there will still be plenty of matches like the one posted. Not all new players have the same skills and the system has no way to know how to balance them because they do not have enough games. The main upside is the mechs would be more even. Makes me wonder if a champian mech only option is the way to go. Then you can still mix new and old players to still get an idea of common total elo but with it coming just down to pilot skill and not mech choices.

And yes teamspeak does make a difference but there are lots of terrible 4 man teams using teamspeak.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 January 2014 - 04:28 AM, said:

Nobody countered you cause it is a Duh statement. In fact, you are just paraphrasing what I told you. That being the best team wins. That means the group that works together a communicates best.

As to exploiting a service available to all players... What of it? Seriously, We all know it is there. We all can use it. I know there are teams out there using it when I PUG, and I accept that reality. After all, it is a team game! And if I choose to handicap myself and my team by playing in silence, why should I vilify the guys smart enough to actually take the steps to improve their game play???

You have the uncanny ability of missing the point and thinking everybody is the same. People come here for different reasons and experiences. I never understand the need to limit others to your own vision when we can easy allow for many different styles of gameplay in this platform. You wrote earlier about adapting and overcoming except you fail to understand this is a highly regulated environment with limited options. And please don't lay the marine scrap on me. I am the son of a retired Marine aviator. I am just smart enough to know that there is no adapt to overcome when only one path (yours) can be taken.