94 replies to this topic

[3rdworld]

Shadows will get nerfed when PGI gets around to nerfing the Jenner and Highlander....

So never I guess.

[MerryIguana]

Mystere, on 10 January 2014 - 04:15 AM, said:

Folks, you are probably being trolled.

Heh, my troll detector went critical just reading the title.

[Ngamok]

FupDup, on 09 January 2014 - 10:13 PM, said:

Honestly, I think that the Shad is the first medium that actually lives up to what mediums *should* be. It has good durability, good maneuverability, and very versatile weapon options. It's the ultimate jack of all trades, but it still usually gets beaten by a well-built heavy or assault in direct fights.

A medium that isn't completely inferior to mechs 65 tons and over? In MY Mechwarrior? It's more likely than you think.

You forgot the the Centurion. It was always more durable than the otehr mediums as well unless you shot out it's legs which every medium would suffer equally from.

[Ngamok]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 09 January 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

Some facts to consider:

-People whined about my formerly favourite mech the Catapult K2 so the devs neutered its torso twist and nerfed is two useful builds (dual ac/20 and dual gauss)
-People whined about the Catapult A1 so the devs nerfed it so many times (massively reduced twist, SRM ghost heat, giant arm hitboxes) such that it's now one of the worst mechs in the game
-People whined about Hunchbacks so the devs came up with the engine cap limit (not something I'm opposed to, but the point still stands) and later made the 9 ML hunchback suffer from ghost heat
-People whined about my Ravens so the devs screwed with their hitboxes and made the non-3L variants which I used to love absolutely useless
-People whined about Spiders so the devs mucked with them recently too (jury's still out on the effect)
-People whined about ECM so the devs nerfed the acceleration speed on the only good Cicada, the 3M. Formerly one of my favourite mechs, now pretty useless

So my question is, why is the newest cheese machine the Shadowhawk being allowed to run rampant as a complete package that usually scores near the top of every match? It is fast, has jump jets, very good (broken?) hit boxes and is able to carry every combo of weapons know to man.

Where are its balance nerfs in the sake of fairness?

Now I'm sure one of the first comments will be: "PGI should buff the other mechs, not nerf the ones that work". Fine. Let's start by un-nerfing all my old mechs above. I had the sense not to hand any more money over to PGI for Project Phoenix so I'd like to see my old stable of mechs regain their usefulness.

A similar comment will be: "But mediums need love!" Well the Shadowhawk is only 5 tons short of a heavy - it bearly even classifies as a medium. The Dragon and Quickdraw surely need a lot more love than the heavy mediums we've been getting. Where was people's concern for mediums when the Cicada 3M was nerfed?

For further proof of Shadowhawk superiority, just look at the new hero Hunchback which is completley outclassed by the Shadowhawk in every way save profile size (not much of a factor when jump jets allow the SH to continuously mess with hit detection, hence its legendary survivability).

Deep down everyone knows this mech is at least partly OP. It's why we frequently see premades running packs of 4 of them, especially in Conquest.

.

Point 1 I will agree with you on the torso twist nerf of the K2. But I will not agree with you on the weapons being changed to affect only the K2.

Point 2 I will agree with you on the SRM part of your statement but not making it the worst mech in the game. You can still run it effectively as an LRM Boat, a Streak Boat and yes, even an SRM Boat.

Point 3 I have to agree that the Hunchback getting an engine size increase was the best thing they did for it. In terms of nerfing the effectiveness not so much, Sure you can't put all 9 ML (45 damage alpha) on the same spot now without suffering some heat penalty. But if you are a good shot, I am sure you can do a 6 x 3 at 0.5s interval. As you can see they are trying to cut down those high alpha builds some thoughout the other mechs as well.

Point 4 I have to disagree. I still see the same good Raven pilots still being good in their Ravens. maybe you should adapt like they did (Hello 1veryron1).

Point 5 the Spider issue, yes it's still out. They are still small and hard to hit, but I've been legging them frequently.

Point 6 on the Cicada 3M part. 10% decceleration did not make the Cicada 3M useless. Are you serious? And how does the decceleration even affect ECM cries? If anything, you aren't supposed to stop in lights or light mediums.

On the point about the Grid Iron. The new Hero Hunchback is still an old Hunchback chassis. Also if you think the SHD is hard to kill, wait till you see more Wolverines. They are the same way. So you might as well include them now.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Ngamok, on 10 January 2014 - 06:59 AM, said:

You forgot the the Centurion. It was always more durable than the otehr mediums as well unless you shot out it's legs which every medium would suffer equally from.

I always thought they should've adopted the Centurion style hitboxes for every medium aside from the Cicada.

I know it was "broken" or whatever. But it made them viable when Medium mechs really weren't otherwise.

I have Mastered Centurion's and the Shadow Hawk reminds me of them a lot with better hardpoint placement (stupid arm autocannon) and jump jets.

[Ngamok]

CapperDeluxe, on 10 January 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

The shadow hawks already have terrible torso twist angle, I think this is another case of someone only looking at the symptom (lots of shadows hawks doing really well as jump snipers) versus the cause (brawlers aren't very good meta right now). I can almost guarantee that if SRMs were as good as they should be you'd be seeing a lot more of the other mechs that can mount a lot of them and go fast to close in to brawling range (wolverine, griffon, centurion, trebuchet, quickdraw)

SRMs do indeed work, but you have to make them work. They work at 100m+ range instead of face humping range like how a lot of the older Centurion pilots used to run them as. They also seem to work better if you use less of them. meaning in my Griffin I put in 3x SRM4s and changed to 2x SRM6s instead to reduce my heat output a little and found that my 6s were getting more hits than my 4s. Only thing I can think of is that the 4s somehow interfere with each other when fired in their pattern and the 6s don't. Just speculation.

[Nehkrosis]

Hold on......the non-3l variants are useless? your deffo not playing the 4x right....

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Ngamok, on 10 January 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

SRMs do indeed work, but you have to make them work. They work at 100m+ range instead of face humping range like how a lot of the older Centurion pilots used to run them as. They also seem to work better if you use less of them. meaning in my Griffin I put in 3x SRM4s and changed to 2x SRM6s instead to reduce my heat output a little and found that my 6s were getting more hits than my 4s. Only thing I can think of is that the 4s somehow interfere with each other when fired in their pattern and the 6s don't. Just speculation.

Sorry it's just that, speculation. SRM's actually doing damage and how they do damage is currently very random from game to game. And it seems like if they are not registering damage, it happens for the whole game. Not just one shot.

There is more than enough bristling about it for us to know that SRM's do not work right.

And one of the things is, you want to take a weapon that is a known quantity (one of the reason's autocannons are so popular). You aim, you fire, you do 5 damage.

Where as with an SRM6, you aim, you fire...you may do damage, you may not...it has a lot of spread depending on where you fire from. And firing more than one launcher at a time may fubar you....so why are you bothering?

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 10 January 2014 - 07:28 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Honestly, I think that the Shad is the first medium that actually lives up to what mediums *should* be.

Almost. The scaling on the Shadowhawk is still horrendous (its bigger than a Thunderbolt). The Hunchback is still the only 50-55 tonner thats scaled properly.

The Shadowhawk definitely doesnt need a nerf though. The other mediums just need buffs.

[wanderer]

I won't say NERF SHD's, but I will say it's one of the best mediums to come out in a while. It's a versatile mix of hardpoint placement, speed, and protection- which is why the old 55-ton mediums were considered the workhorses in tabletop.

Amusingly, it was it's two cousins the Wolverine and Griffin that tended to get more love there, due to better jump capacity and loadout. Here, it's jack-of-all-trades shines.

[Nehkrosis]

Have they ever re-scaled a mech though?

[Ngamok]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 10 January 2014 - 07:28 AM, said:

Where as with an SRM6, you aim, you fire...you may do damage, you may not...it has a lot of spread depending on where you fire from. And firing more than one launcher at a time may fubar you....so why are you bothering?

Because I don't want to have to look at a missile slot in a mech I want to brawl with and say, yep, SSRM2s every time.

[Roadbeer]

Wait until the Wolverine gets into the hands of the "Great Unwashed"

[Navy Sixes]

Truesight, on 09 January 2014 - 10:55 PM, said:

They just want to make money.

Blurry, on 10 January 2014 - 04:00 AM, said:

How does fixing old mechs make PGI money? It doesnt. SO wait for new ones to be released and buy those. We all know the balance is around what is selling at that particular time so whatever is it will be made viable.
Remember - buy frequently and buy often
otherwise you just dont love the game and PGIGP.

I'm not quite buying that. You can C-Bill purchase a Shawk without spending a dime in real dollars. Shawk is a good design, a rare and mystic alignment of stars at PGI that allows them to stumble across a really solid mech without the cop-out of slapping jump-jets on an assault or making a light really small.

Phoenix is over. You couldn't buy a Shawk with real dollars if you wanted to. So, what are you talking about, exactly?

[Trauglodyte]

I would argue that the Shawk only really causes an issue when it is either Streak spamming (which makes the user a lazy *** abusing too-easy-to-use Streaks) or when it is boating as many AC2s as possible (which makes the user a bad for abusing the cockpit shake mechanic). The meta-AC Hawk makes me sad because that is what the Hunchy and YLW should be used for but isn't because it has JJs. Honestly, it is a good mech and would be much more dangerous if SRMs consistantly worked properly. But, I wouldn't say that it is in need of a nerf. If anything, the JJ is what needs to get hammered as that is what gives the Shawk the bulk of its power. Nobody really fears the Centurion because it lacks *drum roll* JJs.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 10 January 2014 - 08:43 AM.

[Damocles69]

...........sdhawlk can look assault mech in the eye...... nerffed enough

[oldradagast]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 09 January 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

Some facts to consider:

-People whined about my formerly favourite mech the Catapult K2 so the devs neutered its torso twist and nerfed is two useful builds (dual ac/20 and dual gauss)
-People whined about the Catapult A1 so the devs nerfed it so many times (massively reduced twist, SRM ghost heat, giant arm hitboxes) such that it's now one of the worst mechs in the game
-People whined about Hunchbacks so the devs came up with the engine cap limit (not something I'm opposed to, but the point still stands) and later made the 9 ML hunchback suffer from ghost heat
-People whined about my Ravens so the devs screwed with their hitboxes and made the non-3L variants which I used to love absolutely useless
-People whined about Spiders so the devs mucked with them recently too (jury's still out on the effect)
-People whined about ECM so the devs nerfed the acceleration speed on the only good Cicada, the 3M. Formerly one of my favourite mechs, now pretty useless

So my question is, why is the newest cheese machine the Shadowhawk being allowed to run rampant as a complete package that usually scores near the top of every match? It is fast, has jump jets, very good (broken?) hit boxes and is able to carry every combo of weapons know to man.

Where are its balance nerfs in the sake of fairness?

Now I'm sure one of the first comments will be: "PGI should buff the other mechs, not nerf the ones that work". Fine. Let's start by un-nerfing all my old mechs above. I had the sense not to hand any more money over to PGI for Project Phoenix so I'd like to see my old stable of mechs regain their usefulness.

A similar comment will be: "But mediums need love!" Well the Shadowhawk is only 5 tons short of a heavy - it bearly even classifies as a medium. The Dragon and Quickdraw surely need a lot more love than the heavy mediums we've been getting. Where was people's concern for mediums when the Cicada 3M was nerfed?

For further proof of Shadowhawk superiority, just look at the new hero Hunchback which is completley outclassed by the Shadowhawk in every way save profile size (not much of a factor when jump jets allow the SH to continuously mess with hit detection, hence its legendary survivability).

Deep down everyone knows this mech is at least partly OP. It's why we frequently see premades running packs of 4 of them, especially in Conquest.

.

The real question is: have YOU been doing well in the Shadowhawk? Based upon your original post, they won't nerf it until that happens.

Serious answer: hopefully the first week of never. It's nice to have a good Medium... there are so few of them.

[Calon Farstar]

MeiSooHaityu, on 10 January 2014 - 04:30 AM, said:

I saw this well typed out message from the OP and all I can see is...

I don't like Shadowhawks so the devs should nerf them.

Really, Shadowhawks are cheese builds, REALLY? I'm starting to think some people wouldn't be happy unless MWO had one mech and one gun with one engine to choose from and no heat.

Exactly I think this guy protests too much. He probably runs heavy LRM boats and dosen't like it when a fast and decently armed shadowhawk can come in and use the terrain to hide from his heavy rain of semi tracking missles and take him out at close range....

I havent seen any builds on a SHD that I would consider a chese build that no other mech cant already do....4 missle points? Well Catapults, Jagers, Jenners, Griffins, Battlemasters, and Orions all can do that too..and the Kintaro? 5 streeks??? Lets be careful what we call cheese builds.

[Roland]

I think that the Shadowhawk is better described as "useful" rather than overpowered and needing a nerf.

Currently, the issue is that most other medium chassis are just flat out terrible compared to other mech weights.

The shadowhawk is good, but it's certainly nowhere near the most powerful mech in the game.

[CDLord HHGD]

I stopped reading at "Waaaaa, my cheese got nerfed! Waaaaa!"

Edited by cdlord, 11 January 2014 - 12:53 PM.