125 replies to this topic

[M4NTiC0R3X]

[General Taskeen]

Set Tesh, on 10 January 2014 - 05:00 AM, said:

isnt the role of Clan Light meant to be different, they arnt so much scouts as they are light mediums, apparently in lore a clan light goes toe to toe with IS mediums, im guessing the balance will come from clan Mechs while being slower,

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Piranha

"The sheer speed that the BattleMech is capable of has also made it something of a scout"

http://www.sarna.net...th_%28Dasher%29

"The Fire Moth is a light Clan OmniMech intended for scouting and infantry support/transport"

Other notables:

http://www.sarna.net...ynx_%28Koshi%29
http://www.sarna.net...%28Dragonfly%29
http://www.sarna.net...et_%28Fenris%29

[wanderer]

Let's also remember that you can't optimize armor placement, period- so no foward focusing or stripping armor from a useless arm to reinforce another section instead.

If they stick with it, the -lack- of customization will cause a distinct weak point in Clan 'Mechs. Worse, if they proceed to render Clan weaponry "IS with a little flavor", you're going to see some legitimately torqued players.

As it is, I have no plans of buying Clan 'Mechs at this point, as I have serious misgivings about their role and function. And considering what's stuck under my name tag as it is, that's saying something.

[LastPaladin]

CyclonerM, on 10 January 2014 - 05:09 AM, said:

Remember the Kit Fox can hurt you with an UAC/5. And that with speed tweak it will be a bit faster.

So can my Cicada, but mine has full armor

[FireSlade]

Lucian Nostra, on 17 January 2014 - 06:21 AM, said:

As PGI has only allowed JJs on mechs that canonically had JJs I wouldn't go expecting Omni's to be able to pack them unless, canonically they had them (something like Aidan Pryde's Timberwolf) because if you think they're gonna let us slap JJs on any omni and turn MWO into Pop-tart Direwolf online.. I'd just point out that for 40 tons you can pack 3 clan erppcs and 2 ultra 10 ACs for a jumping, pinpoint 65 alpha..
Flamer has been covered by FupDup
Armor you have to run heavier on the tonnage since Clan FF provides more armor per ton than Sphere the armor I adjusted for you is what the adder will be running following PGI's doubling of armor.
Clan erppcs vs sphere ones is just a sacrifice you gotta make till they are in.
With all that said I still believe the Adder will have a place in MWO, with tonnage limits coming it might not be bad to have a 35 tonner running dual erppcs, especially if they stay are 15 damage a whack (something I highly suspect they won't). While maintaining close to max armor even if the armor isn't optimized (which is going to be a huge problem for clanners.. most of the clan mechs might run close to 80% max armor but the armor isn't concentrated like we run our sphere machines)
The Kit Fox though. yeah..

I have some hope, though it is very slim, that PGI will make JJs able to fit in the pod space. Although how they are handling the Omni-pods tells me that it will not happen. In the books at least, not sure about TT, Aidan had several of his warrior equip JJs on their mechs including Diana’s Warhawk . Most of these mechs never see JJs but because Clan Omni-mechs are supposed to be able to be reconfigured to fit any role, they could equip them. You are right though this would be OP with other builds. As for my Jenner running JJs they are not used to jump snipe just traverse some terrain faster; so losing them is not game breaking for it.
I do not worry much about the Kit Fox since I have not seen it in action yet. If people take it out and expect to run circles around the enemy ripping them apart like the Spider does, then yes it will be a horrible mech. But… If people treat it like a harasser and sneak up and shoot the enemy in the back and leave before they can shoot back, then I see it doing very well. Yes it will be very unforgiving and you will die a lot, but with the amount of fire power that it can bring it can do some serious damage before it is destroyed.

Edited by FireSlade, 17 January 2014 - 12:40 PM.

[Roadkill]

FupDup, on 16 January 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

In the command chair post about Clans, the devs said that they're following the TT rules for stuff you can and cannot do with Clan mechs. One of the things you can't do is remove equipment that is built into the "base" chassis.

Yeah, but they're not following the TT rules exactly. For example, that Command Chair post implies that you cannot change the amount of armor at all. In TT, you can't decrease armor on an OmniMech, but if you're willing to take up pod space for it you can always add more armor. Off the top of my head I think the same is true for the engine - you can't make it smaller, but if you're willing to use pod space you can install a larger engine.

If they actually follow TT rules, a Clan OmniMech is still far more customizable than any IS Mech during this time frame. And within those TT rules, I don't think a Clan light would be DOA. The problem is that it sounds like they're making the rules more restrictive, and under those more restrictive rules it sounds like Clan lights will be DOA.

[Roadkill]

SgtMagor, on 10 January 2014 - 06:28 AM, said:

yup yup, clan mechs should and will be powerful. but I want to be able to do this to a Clan mech

I commissioned the artwork (Brutal Punch) that's based on. One of my favorite pieces from the card game.

[dario03]

I'm thinking the Clan variants (or whatever they're called) will have different engines in the CT. So one 35ton clan mech CT might come with a 210 engine, another a 255, and another with a 300. So different speeds to choose from but no fine tuning.

[FupDup]

Roadkill, on 17 January 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

Yeah, but they're not following the TT rules exactly. For example, that Command Chair post implies that you cannot change the amount of armor at all. In TT, you can't decrease armor on an OmniMech, but if you're willing to take up pod space for it you can always add more armor. Off the top of my head I think the same is true for the engine - you can't make it smaller, but if you're willing to use pod space you can install a larger engine.

If they actually follow TT rules, a Clan OmniMech is still far more customizable than any IS Mech during this time frame. And within those TT rules, I don't think a Clan light would be DOA. The problem is that it sounds like they're making the rules more restrictive, and under those more restrictive rules it sounds like Clan lights will be DOA.

I don't recall any rules stating that armor and engines could ever increase without a total refit of the unit. Looking at my TechManual PDF, here are some important quotations:

TechManual said:

The engine type, rating, and placement of its critical slots must be established when designing an OmniMech's base configuration, and may not be altered in that OmniMech's completed primary or alternate configurations. (Pg. 49)

The type, weight, number of points and critical slots (if any) required for an OmniMech's armor must be established when designing an OmniMech's base configuration, and may not be altered in that OmniMech's completed primary or alternate configurations. (Pg. 55)

IIRC, you could indirectly increase your armor by carrying Elementals in your Omnipods, but you weren't able to directly increase armor points.


As for Omnis being more customizable than IS mechs, the problem with that is that current IS mechs have nearly no limits when it comes to customizing. Basically, this is how it looks in MWO:

Battlemechs in MWO can customize:

• Armor
  
• Engine
  
• Heatsinks
  
• Internal Structure
  
• Equipment

Omnimechs in MWO can customize (going off of the Command Chair post):

• Equipment
  
• Hardpoint locations

Unless PGI changes their mind from what they've written in the Command Chair, IS Battlemechs will have overall much more open customization (which is totally bassackwards). They chose to follow TT for Omnimechs, but not for BMs. In fact, Omnis in MWO will actually be LESS customizable than TT because of hardpoints. In BT I could put 8 Machine Guns in a Thor's left torso or 6 ER Small Lasers in a Puma's right arm if I wanted to--hardpoints prevent that.

Edited by FupDup, 17 January 2014 - 05:18 PM.

[Escef]

Roadkill, on 17 January 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

Yeah, but they're not following the TT rules exactly. For example, that Command Chair post implies that you cannot change the amount of armor at all. In TT, you can't decrease armor on an OmniMech, but if you're willing to take up pod space for it you can always add more armor. Off the top of my head I think the same is true for the engine - you can't make it smaller, but if you're willing to use pod space you can install a larger engine.

The only things that even come close to this are int he advanced and experimental rules if you use a Super Charger (works like MASC) or Modular Armor (provides penalties as well). You do not well remember TT rules.

[Josef Nader]

Everyone seems to be very confused about the role of omnimechs in tabletop. Omnimechs were not more customizable than battlemechs. They could change their equipment and weapons out faster, because they were all modular, but this required the rest of the mech to be locked in to a standardized chassis. Unlike IS mechs that had to reconfigure the mech to change weapons, the modular pods on Omnimechs meant that you as a player could have a single mech with a dozen different loadouts that you swapped between depending on the situation. However, these loadouts were only weapons and equipment changes. You couldn't change armor, engine, the location of endo/ferro slots, or any weapons that came pre-installed ( a la the Adder's flamer). Omnimechs were only really significant in campaigns that tracked things like repair time, refit time, and salvage. An Omni refit is faster, as you can just swap pods out. Repairing destroyed weapons is faster, as you can just swap pods out. Repairing armor takes the same amount of time. Repairing engines, gyros, and the like takes the same amount of time.

PGI is doing Omni's very nearly word-for-word from tabletop. Frankly, I love how they're being done.

tl;dr the HBK-4G and HBK-4P have to be different mechs. Converting them from one to another takes a lot of time. The Nova Prime, A, B, and C variants are all the same mech, and converting between them takes a few hours.. This conversion does not touch engine, armor, endo, ferro, or any weapon the designers hardwired into the chassis. Converting these things is actually far more difficult than changing the configuration of a battlemech, as all the parts for Omnimechs are standardized and conversion kits don't exist. Remember, the clans don't believe in custom mechs. You don't own your mech like those filthy Inner Sphere freebirths. Your mech belongs to the Clan. Changing it is heresy.

Edited by Josef Nader, 18 January 2014 - 05:55 AM.

[Charons Little Helper]

It amuses me how everyone is debating the balance of something that isn't released yet purely on speculation.

The command chair post said that was only their starting point for clan mechs - because that is how they work in TT - not the end point for MWO.

[Khobai]

Quote

The command chair post said that was only their starting point for clan mechs - because that is how they work in TT - not the end point for MWO.

Which makes no sense. Maybe they should enforce how IS mechs work in TT if theyre going to put the same restrictions clans.

[Josef Nader]

Khobai, on 18 January 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

Which makes no sense. Maybe they should enforce how IS mechs work in TT if theyre going to put the same restrictions clans.

Except they're following the rules for building battlemechs and omnimechs almost exactly. The only real change they've made is hard points.

Remember, IS mechs require a whole new mech to change weapons load out, but because it requires a whole new mech you can rebuild almost everything on it. A single omnimech can alter its load out to match a dozen similar battlemechs. It cannot, however, modify anything else without extensive work, especially because, unlike battlemechs, they're a standardized chassis.

[Khobai]

Quote

Except they're following the rules for building battlemechs and omnimechs almost exactly.

Not really. IS mechs cant be easily customized. You can buy refit kits but theyre very expensive and often only available to members of elite house/merc units and thats not reflected at all in the game.

Quote

Remember, IS mechs require a whole new mech to change weapons load out, but because it requires a whole new mech you can rebuild almost everything on it. A single omnimech can alter its load out to match a dozen similar battlemechs.

I fail to see your point. A single omnimech wont be able to alter its loadout unless you also own the omnimech youre swapping components with. For example if you have a Daishi-A you cant give it Daishi-B arms unless you own both a Daishi-A and a Daishi-B.

Clans are actually more disadvantaged because they cant change armor or engine size.

[Josef Nader]

But they have smaller XL engines (survive side torso destruction), 7 slot Endo/Ferro, 2 slot DHS, and generally lighter, longer range weapons.

In return, you can't change armor or engines. Those are some pretty fair tradeoffs to me.

Clans were balanced in tabletop for more reasons than battle value, champ. They have downsides too.

[Jenkss]

But that's also assuming IS mechs aren't given access to Clan Tech.

If they are then that means they get all the customization that MWO allows AND access to what you mentioned above (2 slot DHS, clan weapons etc)

That would hardly be fair.

It would make sense if they go this way that there is no mixing of tech. IS gets IS and Clan gets Clan. No swapping or sharing between the two.

[Josef Nader]

So far they have made no indication of allowing mixtech. If they do, then all this is pretty pointless and all Clan mechs will be completely useless.

I can't see them doing that. PGI has made some dumb decisions in the past, but making iconic, high ticket mechs completely obsolete immediately upon arrival is beyond even them.

[Jon Gotham]

Ok for devil's advocacy's sake 18, if they put clan mechs and tech in at their actual strength there were at in the lore.......

What would you suggest to balance it out? Because in the current game clan mechs at original "power" levels would decimate anything in the Is hands down.
Somebody remarked to me a few days ago, the IS only won because they would do things the clans would not. Ideology beat the clans-not the mechs.


So, what would you do to make a fair game?

[Josef Nader]

What PGI is doing. Make Omnimechs adhere to Tabletop rules. If that wasn't enough, make Clan vs IS matches 10v12, as the IS also had numerical superiority.

Frankly, I love what they're doing right now. It's a genius way of making sure that Clan Mechs stay effective (better guns, better upgrades, better XLs) while still keeping them in check with the Inner Sphere (tougher mechs, more manageable heat, more flexibility in mech customization).

Again, the important distinction here is that IS pilots customize their mechs over decades, and they own the mechs, so they can do whatever they want to them. Clan pilots customize their mechs over the span of hours, but the mech is owned by the Clan and the pilot could easily be piloting a completely different mech next week. In this sense, the Clan mech is -way- more customizable than the IS in the short term, but you almost never see modifications to the core chassis like you see in the IS.