4831 replies to this topic

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Virlutris, on 26 January 2016 - 10:17 PM, said:

GMan's post with the 5ML version of the LCT-1E makes a world of sense for a trial mech. It's a nice, steady and sufficiently-optimized 1E build for poke-and-run. Folks can try it this way, fall in love with the chassis, then buy one and try more exotic builds.

I hate to say it, but the maths for 5ML 1E works very, very heavily against such a build. Even with 25% reduction in heat, 5ML generates (20 * 0.75 = 15.00 heat) per alpha. With elite skills unlocked, a 5ML 1E has 60 heat capacity with 2.25heat/sec dissipation, which is a full 30 seconds to discharge all heat on an average-heat map, or ~7.5 seconds cooldown between alphas for a sustained engagement. You only get to blow out 4 x 25 damage alphas (100 damage total) before running away in abject terror for the next 7.5-10 seconds, and even as a veteran Locust pilot I don't particularly like being unable to fire back due to overheat. And Locusts can't exactly override without blowing up.

I still think the 6SPL 1E is a much friendlier, and true to flavour build of the Locust. It's a knife fighter, not a hill-humping machine like the JR7-F. (12 * 0.75 = 9) heat per alpha (24 damage), for up to 7 alphas before nearly touching overheat. That's 168 damage for 6SPL vs 100 damage for 5ML, which is a big difference in engagements where you can't burst down your opponent very easily, like in 1v1 fights vs ACHs or a SCR.

[Tim East]

To say nothing of the shorter burn duration's utility in a duel proper against another light pilot. Eat your heart out, Cheetahs.

[Virlutris]

It's not that I don't like the SPL build. I run the classic Redrum Locust myself.

It's that I think a poker is a better build for a mech that will be presented as a Champion and Trial mech.

Sure, the math looks good on paper, but is a Locust neophyte going to be around their target long enough to deliver all that extra damage?

The poker lets folks poke and run, and get used to the speed and handling without being right under foot. The SPL build requires additional piloting chops and experience that folks won't necessarily have acquired yet.

You guys are experts. Of course you're going to be thinking differently than someone taking a Locust out for a first test drive. Let them learn with some range. If they like things about the mech, they can put the murder pulses on their very own Locust after they're hooked

You are, of course, free to continue to hold your position of disagreement.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Virlutris, on 27 January 2016 - 08:39 PM, said:

Sure, the math looks good on paper, but is a Locust neophyte going to be around their target long enough to deliver all that extra damage?

The poker lets folks poke and run, and get used to the speed and handling without being right under foot. The SPL build requires additional piloting chops and experience that folks won't necessarily have acquired yet.

You guys are experts. Of course you're going to be thinking differently than someone taking a Locust out for a first test drive. Let them learn with some range. If they like things about the mech, they can put the murder pulses on their very own Locust after they're hooked

Good point about range and lack of experience. Locust neophytes will need something easier to handle for admission into the Cult of Lolcust. Until they get a steady hand and a good feel on how agile a Locust is, it's probably a good idea to let them have some range....

....Now I'm tempted to suggest the LCT-1E with a single ERPPC.

[Tim East]

Virlutris, on 27 January 2016 - 08:39 PM, said:

It's not that I don't like the SPL build. I run the classic Redrum Locust myself.

It's that I think a poker is a better build for a mech that will be presented as a Champion and Trial mech.

Sure, the math looks good on paper, but is a Locust neophyte going to be around their target long enough to deliver all that extra damage?

The poker lets folks poke and run, and get used to the speed and handling without being right under foot. The SPL build requires additional piloting chops and experience that folks won't necessarily have acquired yet.

You guys are experts. Of course you're going to be thinking differently than someone taking a Locust out for a first test drive. Let them learn with some range. If they like things about the mech, they can put the murder pulses on their very own Locust after they're hooked

You are, of course, free to continue to hold your position of disagreement.

Best of both worlds? LCT 1V LPL build. Range and decent brawling dps power. Not amazing, but amazingly fun. MLs are kind of garbage.

True story though, I learned to Locust on the 5 SPL + BAP LCT 3M. It's not that hard compared to the stock Commando builds I learned to play the game in general on. In fact, I found it to be a delightful little run & gunner after having to cautiously poke at things with the LL on the COM 1B for so long.

I guess what I'm getting at is that if you're going to have new players learn a thing, you may as well have them learn it...I hesitate to say "right" but I really feel that the ML Locust is kind of just wrong. :\

It's not a mech that is well-suited to poking(the 1E I mean; its mobility quirks are not sufficient), MLs are way too hot for the damage they do, the burn time is too long, and the increased range only means that newer players are going to have to go slower to hit things that are farther away, and going slower is counter to the entire point of the Locust.

The Locusts I knew and loved prior to the global mobility nerf were lightning quick to accelerate and stop, and that's what made them good in a duel if you could read your opponent. Now they play more like fighter planes; you swoop in and do a strafing run while wiggling the foot alignment back and forth. Standing still to try and focus a full 3 quarters of a second on a spot 200+ meters away is just asking to eat a dual gauss to the ST.

Edited by Tim East, 27 January 2016 - 09:25 PM.

[Penwize]

I am a Locust neophyte, only been playing MWO for about two weeks. Bought the Locust 1E as my first mech on a whim (Spent zero time comparing prices and stats. I seriously figured all light mechs cost around 2M and weighed 20 tons. Saw the word Locust and bought the 1E for the hardpoints).

I have had so much goddamned fun and things have only gotten better since reading this thread. I haven't been pulling the miracles you all have been sharing or engaged in real coordinated fights but I'm certainly learning. Still working my way up the skill trees and playing with all sorts of builds. I hope when I genuinely dedicate myself to other mechs that I won't leave this little deadly chickenwalker behind.

Thanks Walker and everyone else for the amazing builds. You've made this game magnificent for me.

[IraqiWalker]

Virlutris, on 27 January 2016 - 08:39 PM, said:

It's not that I don't like the SPL build. I run the classic Redrum Locust myself.

It's that I think a poker is a better build for a mech that will be presented as a Champion and Trial mech.

Sure, the math looks good on paper, but is a Locust neophyte going to be around their target long enough to deliver all that extra damage?

The poker lets folks poke and run, and get used to the speed and handling without being right under foot. The SPL build requires additional piloting chops and experience that folks won't necessarily have acquired yet.

You guys are experts. Of course you're going to be thinking differently than someone taking a Locust out for a first test drive. Let them learn with some range. If they like things about the mech, they can put the murder pulses on their very own Locust after they're hooked

You are, of course, free to continue to hold your position of disagreement.

You make a very good point about easing them into locusting, since it's not exactly the easiest ride in the world, and something mid range would allow them to survive better, and learn more. Of course, once they get the locust, they can then tweak it however they want, to best suit their style.

I think this discussion can be boiled down to simply, do you want to ease them into something, or let them do it right off the bat?

Penwize, on 27 January 2016 - 09:27 PM, said:

I am a Locust neophyte, only been playing MWO for about two weeks. Bought the Locust 1E as my first mech on a whim (Spent zero time comparing prices and stats. I seriously figured all light mechs cost around 2M and weighed 20 tons. Saw the word Locust and bought the 1E for the hardpoints).

I have had so much goddamned fun and things have only gotten better since reading this thread. I haven't been pulling the miracles you all have been sharing or engaged in real coordinated fights but I'm certainly learning. Still working my way up the skill trees and playing with all sorts of builds. I hope when I genuinely dedicate myself to other mechs that I won't leave this little deadly chickenwalker behind.

Thanks Walker and everyone else for the amazing builds. You've made this game magnificent for me.

I'm very happy to hear about your positive experience, and I'm sure the rest of the guys are also quite glad to have helped improve your enjoyment of the game, XD.

[Virlutris]

IraqiWalker, on 27 January 2016 - 10:14 PM, said:

You make a very good point about easing them into locusting, since it's not exactly the easiest ride in the world, and something mid range would allow them to survive better, and learn more. Of course, once they get the locust, they can then tweak it however they want, to best suit their style.

I think this discussion can be boiled down to simply, do you want to ease them into something, or let them do it right off the bat?


I'm very happy to hear about your positive experience, and I'm sure the rest of the guys are also quite glad to have helped improve your enjoyment of the game, XD.

Truthfully, I'm fine either way.

There's a lot to learn about Locusts. Sometimes, they'll even be run with MLs. But if we're talking new players and a first test drive in a Locust, I think the ML becomes one fewer new thing that someone has to learn.

And really, even though we're not arguing against the 6SPL as the superior build, it's not like folks don't run those ML builds on the 1E.

We should also bear in mind that we don't tend to hyper-optimize these Champion builds anyway. We tend to fudge them a little out of consideration for who's going to drive them most often, and we try to make them ready to play out of the box. SPL boating is epic, and worth learning, but an acquired skill nonetheless. So is handling Locusts. I think it's worthwhile to let folks learn one set of those dynamics at a time.

I don't think it's wrong to just go "all in," for some pilots. For many, a more gradual progression will be helpful. What percentage? Who knows?

While there are better builds out there than 5ML, the medium laser is common enough that it becomes pretty familiar for new players. I'm thinking that the familiarity of the ML is at least one thing they don't have to learn from scratch when they hop in a trial Locust.

Just having the Champion inbound will raise the Locust's profile. That's a Good Thing™. The moments of "whee!" from new pilots are going to totally be worth every "paper armor" gripe.

Edited by Virlutris, 27 January 2016 - 11:33 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Virlutris, on 27 January 2016 - 11:05 PM, said:

We should also bear in mind that we don't tend to hyper-optimize these Champion builds anyway. We tend to fudge them a little out of consideration for who's going to drive them most often, and we try to make them ready to play out of the box. SPL boating is epic, and worth learning, but an acquired skill nonetheless. So is handling Locusts. I think it's worthwhile to let folks learn one set of those dynamics at a time.

I don't think it's wrong to just go "all in," for some pilots. For many, a more gradual progression will be helpful.

This is literally why I recommend the HBK-4SP as the first HBK to get for new players, and yes, no one is saying the 6SPL build is bad, at all. It just requires better piloting skill than what's to be expected from a new player in order to really perform well in.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 28 January 2016 - 06:00 AM.

[jper4]

Penwize, on 27 January 2016 - 09:27 PM, said:

I am a Locust neophyte, only been playing MWO for about two weeks. Bought the Locust 1E as my first mech on a whim (Spent zero time comparing prices and stats. I seriously figured all light mechs cost around 2M and weighed 20 tons. Saw the word Locust and bought the 1E for the hardpoints).

I have had so much goddamned fun and things have only gotten better since reading this thread. I haven't been pulling the miracles you all have been sharing or engaged in real coordinated fights but I'm certainly learning. Still working my way up the skill trees and playing with all sorts of builds. I hope when I genuinely dedicate myself to other mechs that I won't leave this little deadly chickenwalker behind.

Thanks Walker and everyone else for the amazing builds. You've made this game magnificent for me.

welcome to the club.

before you know it you will be dragged into the commando cadre and the cult of urbie as well...oh wait that's a spoiler shhh.

though admittedly I haven't touched my locusts in a while- cause I have urbies dammit!

[3xnihilo]

Tanar, on 29 January 2016 - 01:09 PM, said:

welcome to the club.

before you know it you will be dragged into the commando cadre and the cult of urbie as well...oh wait that's a spoiler shhh.

though admittedly I haven't touched my locusts in a while- cause I have urbies dammit!

This is funny because it is true


Edit:

Wow, I just realized that this thread is 2 years old. . . where does the time go?!?!?!

Edited by 3xnihilo, 29 January 2016 - 01:29 PM.

[loopala]

i had not played Locusts for awhile but with the new map HOTH i had to try out the littlest lrm dingy and of course the PB HOTH cruser.

all i can say is i have spent too much time in assaults lattly and i am glad to be back.

now on the locust champ build. you did not think i would check in and not type my humble opinion on that, did you?

i am in the 5ml or maybe 4ml 1E camp. i mean we can't just give them the keys to the ferrari for thier first car. champs should be good optimized builds not the best build

[Takashi Uchida]

This.. isn't.. the best mech in the world.. this is just a tribute..

[Leone]

Whelp, I totally think the 1E spl makes a better champion, because no matter how good mediums can poke, eventually you'll run into another light, and there's nothing like trying to take on a light with mediums when they've the better weaponry.

As for my 3S I posted, I just find it more fun, despite being shorter lived and less vicious.

~Leone.

[IraqiWalker]

Takashi Uchida, on 29 January 2016 - 07:26 PM, said:

This.. isn't.. the best mech in the world.. this is just a tribute..

[3xnihilo]

Got an up arrow on a defeat with the Locust 1V LPL build:






The Highlander got me with LRM's while I was trying to finish of the EBJ

[mad kat]

Had a good one the other night, was in my mighty death-ball 1E on HPG was harassing a Warhawk and Hunchback iic and no matter how many times i hit him (the hunchback) with 6spl the lasers appeared to go right through him and no damage seemed to appear (this was at knife fighting range in mech speak). I stuck with him and eventually blew a side off but then it got a bit busy so i made a temporary break for freedom.

I came back a few seconds later to find the Warhawk cowering in one of the corners round the side of the long ramp from the basement under the 'peekers bridge' i got stuck between him and the corner so moved to face hugging distance, so close i could see his terrified dilated pupils and the whites of his eyes. I then proceeded to keep on alpha'ing him at point blank range and he couldn't do a thing! I'm not even sure he could see me or work out where he was getting chewn up from. If he could his weapons couldn't converge and was defenseless as i was right in front of him!

Edited by mad kat, 02 February 2016 - 03:16 AM.

[TTDeadsayer]

I love my locusts. Along with the spiders, they're some of my favourite mechs. The trick is to never stop moving. Ever. If you stop you are dead. With some minor exceptions. The 1V with ERLL can snipe if you keep an eye on your whereabouts and don't get too focused so things sneak up behind you. I started with the Peanut Butter I picked up on sale. When that turned out to be a lot of fun, I got the 3M which I loved just as much. Now I also have the 1V and the 3V, both of which are also great. So far I've avoided the ones with missile hardpoints but one day I'll get them too, maybe throw a NARC on one or whatever. My 1V I have only an ERLL. 3V I have 2 MPLs, 3M I have 5 SPLs. Great mechs. Makes me want to play them right now. Too bad I'm at work.

[mad kat]

Went for a spin in my PB last night as haven't driven it in a while got stuck trying to elite crabs and my new Griffin 2N.

Bloody roots and logs on Viridian get stuck on everything. Rear cored a mauler then started having go at a Warhammer and another mauler did the old face hugger trick again to the mauler who was inside the centipede carcass tried to move off but got stuck. I was cannon fodder, only moved when he killed me. Crap map.

Edited by mad kat, 03 February 2016 - 11:55 PM.

[Tim East]

mad kat, on 03 February 2016 - 11:53 PM, said:

Went for a spin in my PB last night as haven't driven it in a while got stuck trying to elite crabs and my new Griffin 2N.

Bloody roots and logs on Viridian get stuck on everything. Rear cored a mauler then started having go at a Warhammer and another mauler did the old face hugger trick again to the mauler who was inside the centipede carcass tried to move off but got stuck. I was cannon fodder, only moved when he killed me. Crap map.

Weirdly enough, I love that map. Probably because it's so bright green that it matches my neon green Locust paint. I'll admit that the geometries could use a lot more polish, since there are invisible walls everywhere and walls you can run straight up the side of, and it's not very clear where you can walk, but I like it a great deal more than LRM Hoth. Or nearly any snow map except for Frozen City Night, and only Night.