4831 replies to this topic

[Virlutris]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 16 May 2017 - 10:05 PM, said:

Okay. After toying around with the skill tree some on Locusts, Ravens and Kit Foxes, this is what I've found.

The Survival tree is, for the most part, utter garbage for most lights. MOST lights. There are some lights that have obscene durability buffs, and the survival tree actually amplifies these. Kit Foxes, in particular, can get up to 53 points of armor on each arm (!), and have STs with close to 40 hp struct + 33 armor. This makes them essentially a 45-50 tonner medium in terms of durability, with the survival tree. And as they do not have stellar mobility to begin with and have a hard-locked undersized engine, sinking too much into mobility doesn't give all that much benefit. Panthers would likely benefit from the survival tree as well, seeing as they also have some obscene durability quirks.

If you want to poke a lot, the mobility tree can be pruned somewhat. You still need both sides filled for Speed Tweak for any lights with a big engine, but if all you plan to do is reverse and forward repeatedly with high mounts (Ravens, Locusts w/ ERLL) you can neglect the end-node torso yaw range. Torso pitch for LCT-1V and any others with torso mount ones would do well to pick up torso pitch range. +-20 degrees up/down is not pleasant to use, at all - the least bit of rough ground will see you unable to hit what you see.

Firepower tree...this is where it becomes interesting. Due to the small size of each node's bonuses, you may actually get more value out of sinking points into Sensors instead. Being able to pick out enemy stripped components almost instantly is amazingly good. Radar Dep, Seismic Sensor, Extended Sensor Range and Target Retention / Target Decay will make sure that you never lose track of what you need to hit. That being said, if your weapons generate a vast amount of heat per second (2 ERPPCs come to mind), you will get a lot of utility out of Heat Gen Reduction from the firepower tree. But whether this is worth sinking ~50 node points into is debatable.

Operations. Hill Climb is a real lifesaver for lights. A lot of ramps that fatmechs can't climb, you can! And this means that you can pull a fatmech into a bad position, and run the hell away leaving it stranded in the middle of nowhere. Heat Dissipation is always nice, and heat capacity is always great on mechs with sub-250 engines.

I fiddled with a Panther on an alt account, and found that it did benefit best (not exactly well) from a kind of balanced topiary of the Skill Shrubberies. It's not fast to start, so it needs what speed it can scrounge up, needs twisty-turny skills, lots of heat management, some more hitpoints, more heat help from the weapon shrubbery ...

I think the only thing I din't do much of was the info skills, because it's a gunsy kind of mech and needed a ton of other help, which leaves me miss the Radar Dep for side peeking and poking. It feels like a sizeable hedge maze for the Panther.

It needed help everywhere to feel like it wasn't horribly nerfed. Still seemed hotter after emphasizing heat in every shrubbery, including the JJ shrubbery.

At least locusts don't need the JJ shrubbery, right?

[DeeHawk]

I can't believe you ignore the sensor tree. Off course we have different playstyles, but I build my 1E like this:

Mobility > Sensors / Operations > Firepower

Think I had around 12 nodes in Firepower. The gains for 6x small pulse is miniscule compared to getting a complete module for 5 nodes.
Target Info Gathering, Radar Depr, Target Retention & Target Decay (Last 2 are really nice when dancing with now non-RadarDepr. fatties around buildings).

Survival and information is way more powerful than a 5-10% boost in dps.

[Old-dirty B]

My take on the skill tree in relation to the Locust (1E):

I dont have a specific order, just a list of stuff that i need (in no particular order):

• acceleration, deceleration, turn rate, torso angle and torso speed
  
• cooldown and range
  
• heat efficiency
  
• seismic sensor and radar derp (not the full effect but 50% is already very good)

The rest is all side stuff.

Mobility is for sure essential, but not all nodes are... some of the torso pitch and torso speed nodes are not worth it, the locust already has pretty decent torso speed and the arm mounted weapons solve the lack of torso pitch (might even solve the blocking cockpit frame issue when shooting at uav's).

Then heat generation, dissipation and capacity, i did some calculations and i have to conclude that 1 heat gen. node in the firepower branch has more effect then either the dissipation or capacity nodes in the ops. branch. Also, some of the coolrun and heat cap nodes are blocked by less needed nodes where's the heat gen nodes can be acquired and at the same time you pick up some welcome nodes like cooldown and range...
To me, heat is a very limiting factor to the 1E, you cant add more heatsinks because there's simply no room or weight left but it can be fixed with the skilltree.

About sensors, to me seismic sensor is very important, especially for hit n run tactics, radar derp is also very nice, but the whole right part of the sensor branch comes with quite a few unneeded nodes, target retention, target decay or sensor range... The locust is a close range killer and you need to be behind the enemy not the other way around! We can skip those and unfortunatly that leaves additional seismic range and radar derp out of reach, i think what we can find on the left side should be enough to work with.

One other thing about cooldown / laser duration, if you have the choice between one or the other, always go for laser duration! Laser duration (for the small pulses) has a minuscule cooldown advantage over a dedicated cooldown module with the added bonus of more damage per laser duration tick!

In the end i have spend most points on mobility, then firepower (mostly on heat gen) but only after i have spend just enough points to get to 50% seismic and radar derp.

All in all, the Locust 1E is now definitely less effective compared to before the skill tree patch, but so are all other mechs...

[Ovion]

This is how I'm running my PB right now

Though I'm probably dropping the Structure points for other stuff, I mostly put it in because I couldn't decide on other stuff and have plenty of points for it.

[Virlutris]

DeeHawk, on 16 May 2017 - 11:17 PM, said:

I can't believe you ignore the sensor tree. Off course we have different playstyles, but I build my 1E like this:

Mobility > Sensors / Operations > Firepower

Think I had around 12 nodes in Firepower. The gains for 6x small pulse is miniscule compared to getting a complete module for 5 nodes.
Target Info Gathering, Radar Depr, Target Retention & Target Decay (Last 2 are really nice when dancing with now non-RadarDepr. fatties around buildings).

Survival and information is way more powerful than a 5-10% boost in dps.

I don't know that "ignore" quite reflects it. I prioritize it after the others to make sure the thing's baseline playable before looking at what's left for the Info Shrubbery.

It certaiy wasn't my first priority on my first night in the skill hedge maze. As before, Radar Dep and Seismic are the most useful skills. They're expensive by design though, and the level of investment in other skills determines how much I'll invest in my topiary of the information shrubbery.

I'll admit my last wall o' text was heavily Panther-centric. It's got different challenges due to speed, size, profile, and loadouts, but everyone suffers under the green leafy thumb of our new skill shrubbery overlords. How I navigate it mech-by-mech is still a colossal work in progress.

I'm honestly still trying to determine if it's worth it. The economics feels punitive, even if a meta for the nodes will eventually settle out and save me from some of the headache of navigating the hedge maze.

[IraqiWalker]

DrxAbstract, on 16 May 2017 - 01:45 AM, said:

Mobility-->Firepower-->Operations, ordered from greatest priority to least. Survival comes in at 4th because a couple points there will make glancing shots take longer to burn holes in your legs.

Load up on agility, boost your respective weapons then fill out some general performance enhancements in Ops and, if you have the points, Survival or Auxiliary.

I personally will be loading up on agility. Our best defense has always been the fact that our enemies have a hard time hitting us.

This is all preliminary in my mind. Once I see how the "fatbros" build their mechs skills wise, I will most likely proceed to counter those set ups.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

IraqiWalker, on 17 May 2017 - 06:17 PM, said:

I personally will be loading up on agility. Our best defense has always been the fact that our enemies have a hard time hitting us.

This is all preliminary in my mind. Once I see how the "fatbros" build their mechs skills wise, I will most likely proceed to counter those set ups.

Fatbros are going full armor, no sensors. It's much easier to sneak up on people now that most of them don't have RDep chirp to alert them, and no Seismic to let them see through walls. That being said, the days of being able to "6-second-Jenner" an Atlas are now gone. Some assaults have obscene levels of durability; IIRC, some models of Atlases have ~150 armor frontal and ~90 structure. So backstabbing will be nearly impossible unless you're targeting a squishy gun emplacement assault (DWF, KDK).

[DeeHawk]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 17 May 2017 - 09:24 PM, said:

Some assaults have obscene levels of durability; IIRC, some models of Atlases have ~150 armor frontal and ~90 structure. So backstabbing will be nearly impossible unless you're targeting a squishy gun emplacement assault (DWF, KDK).

~90 structure mean aproxx. 1 more hit from a 1E to backstab. Not exactly 'impossible'
Their rear armor will still be soft as butter.

[TheFourthAlly]

They don't even need to die right away. Even though I haven't played lights actively for all that long, I've played plenty of 'ring around the snow dune/buildings' with various enraged heavies and assaults while their firepower and armour is no longer part of the enemy front line.

Then you dart off to somewhere else to do the same to another one, rinse and repeat. Apart from the times you accidentally turn the corner to face one with a twitchy trigger finger...

Still scratching my head a bit over all the options in the skill trees, but in a good way imo. It's interesting to see what I can fiddle together.

[Virlutris]

Ovion, on 17 May 2017 - 05:01 AM, said:

This is how I'm running my PB right now

Though I'm probably dropping the Structure points for other stuff, I mostly put it in because I couldn't decide on other stuff and have plenty of points for it.

Ovi, what would you think of dropping some of that upper-left loop on the weapon shrubbery (the one that loops through the range and heatgen, I think) to take the other branch toward the last laser duration node?

Would it be worth it enough for you?

[Old-dirty B]

This is my skill-tree for the Locust 1E (6xSPL):

Locust LCT-1E Skill Tree

It has the all the mobility it needs, torso speed and pitch is where i saved some points.
It has the full seismic sensor and 80% radar derp for stealth and hit 'n run gameplay
It has half quick ignition nodes, useful for tactical shutdowns / jukes
It has full hillclimb, useful to get out of hairy situations
It has full heat containment, needed because the locust lacks internal heatsink capacity and no more room / space to add additional heatsinks
It has 42% heat efficiency, similar to a fully elited Locust 1E pre-skilltree

Only real difference with pre-skilltree is the reduced acceleration / deceleration, the lack of a second consumable slot and slightly higher cooldown / lower damage output.

Edited by B3R3ND, 19 May 2017 - 10:17 AM.

[Virlutris]

B3R3ND, on 19 May 2017 - 06:48 AM, said:

This is my skill-tree for the Locust 1E (6xSPL):

Locust LCT-1E Skill Tree

It has the all the mobility it needs, torso speed and pitch is where i saved some points.
It has the full seismic sensor and 80% radar derp for stealth and hit 'n run gameplay
It has half quick ignition nodes, useful for tactical shutdowns / jukes
It has full hillclimb, useful to get out of hairy situations
It has full heat containment, needed because the locust lacks internal heatsink capacity and no more room / space to add additional heatsinks
It has 42% heat efficiency, similar to a fully elited Locust 1E pre-skilltree

Only real difference with pre-skilltree is the reduced acceleration / deceleration, the lack of a second consumable slot and slightly higher cooldown / lower damage output.

Sharing thought process:

I've been spending a point for that second consumable almost automatically.

Then again, I've been putting fewer points in Quick Ignition, too.

Thanks for sharing. I find having lots of examples as data points to be helpful in my topiary of the skill shrubberies.

[Old-dirty B]

No problem, you are welcome!

You could drop to 60% radar derp and spend those points on consumables or in operations to get full quick ignition or elsewhere ofc.

One of m design goals in this skill tree is just enough heat efficiency that it feels like pre-skill tree and even more important to be able to fire that full alpha just when the heat warning disappears. Oddly, with full heat capacity nodes when the heat warning disappears you have exactly 11.155 heat to spend, with my firepower setup you get just enough heat generation savings that the regular of 12 heat of the full alpha is reduced to 11.1 you can fire without thinking when theres no heat warning!

Edited by B3R3ND, 19 May 2017 - 07:20 AM.

[Ovion]

Virlutris, on 19 May 2017 - 06:25 AM, said:

Ovi, what would you think of dropping some of that upper-left loop on the weapon shrubbery (the one that loops through the range and heatgen, I think) to take the other branch toward the last laser duration node?

Would it be worth it enough for you?

Honestly, running SPL I find 3 is enough, and the cooldown + heatgen is worth more.

Edited by Ovion, 19 May 2017 - 07:25 AM.

[Tim East]

Hi guys, I'm back. Thanks for posting the helpful skill build advice, as I've been taking my time deciding how to setup my 1e, since I don't much think the 3m will hold up with only cooldown buff as the difference between them.

Thoughts on the 3v? I've been wanting to try and make something of it, but it doesn't seem like it'll be able to be the LPL sniper it was back when I got it. I note it still gets durability buffs, but only having the weapon slots it does makes it tough to decide what to even mount.

[Ovion]

Tim East, on 19 May 2017 - 05:56 PM, said:

Thoughts on the 3v? I've been wanting to try and make something of it, but it doesn't seem like it'll be able to be the LPL sniper it was back when I got it. I note it still gets durability buffs, but only having the weapon slots it does makes it tough to decide what to even mount.

Mine has an LBX10.

[Tim East]

Ovion, on 20 May 2017 - 02:40 AM, said:

Mine has an LBX10.

lolwut?
Is that any good at all? I always feel sad to sacrifice engine for gun in a Locust.

[Ovion]

Tim East, on 20 May 2017 - 05:31 AM, said:

lolwut?
Is that any good at all? I always feel sad to sacrifice engine for gun in a Locust.

Depends on your definition of good....
_{(Though probably not xD)}

But it is really fun.
An insane adrenaline trip.
MWO as survival Horror - no armour, no health, 30 shots, even a mild miss by enemy LRMs could spell death for you.
It's a hell of a rush.

[DrxAbstract]

Ehhh...

My Battlecust:

Tree: LCT-1E
MechLab: LCT-1E

Since the Mechlab site doesn't have trees set up for bonuses you can't see the real values from the Survival tree, etc. but those would be the literal armor values in the game pre-skills. Obligatory 2nd Consumable slot.

Every section gains 4-5 Armor and 2-3 Structure, allowing some shaving of the Arm and Head armors with a 180XL to reduce tonnage enough for both removing Ferro and adding another HS. That alone nullifies the Heat aspects of the Operations tree almost entirely, unless you completely fill it out, while still markedly improving survivability. Speed tweak is taken specifically to retain a speed slightly higher than a baseline 190XL and the Mech's Agility, aside from missing 5% Turn Speed, is maximized.

Sensors provide a well-rounded package of bonuses: Seismic and Radar Deprivation are not completely filled out, lingering around the 50% of their pre-tree performance, however they are still present. This allows you some freedom in your movements and awareness of the immediate area.

By being able to skip Operations entirely, and skimming Sensors, you have enough spare points to dump into Weapons to minimize the loss of the Cooldown and Range Weapon Modules (As well as the pre-tree chassis Quirks) combined with an impressive amount of Heat Reduction, allowing for remarkable freedom in utilizing your weapons while exponentially improving staying power, which is sorely needed for the poor Lolcust given the circumstances we find ourselves in during these post-tree days.

I believe, with the introduction of Light Ferro Fibrous tech, the build will be able to once again utilize a 190XL engine, which can either allow the shedding of Speed Tweak and their associated nodes to further improve weapon performance, or what have you.

[Ovion]

DrxAbstract, on 20 May 2017 - 03:32 PM, said:

Ehhh...

My Battlecust:

Tree: LCT-1E
MechLab: LCT-1E

Since the Mechlab site doesn't have trees set up for bonuses you can't see the real values from the Survival tree, etc. but those would be the literal armor values in the game pre-skills. Obligatory 2nd Consumable slot.

Every section gains 4-5 Armor and 2-3 Structure, allowing some shaving of the Arm and Head armors with a 180XL to reduce tonnage enough for both removing Ferro and adding another HS. That alone nullifies the Heat aspects of the Operations tree almost entirely, unless you completely fill it out, while still markedly improving survivability. Speed tweak is taken specifically to retain a speed slightly higher than a baseline 190XL and the Mech's Agility, aside from missing 5% Turn Speed, is maximized.

Sensors provide a well-rounded package of bonuses: Seismic and Radar Deprivation are not completely filled out, lingering around the 50% of their pre-tree performance, however they are still present. This allows you some freedom in your movements and awareness of the immediate area.

By being able to skip Operations entirely, and skimming Sensors, you have enough spare points to dump into Weapons to minimize the loss of the Cooldown and Range Weapon Modules (As well as the pre-tree chassis Quirks) combined with an impressive amount of Heat Reduction, allowing for remarkable freedom in utilizing your weapons while exponentially improving staying power, which is sorely needed for the poor Lolcust given the circumstances we find ourselves in during these post-tree days.

I believe, with the introduction of Light Ferro Fibrous tech, the build will be able to once again utilize a 190XL engine, which can either allow the shedding of Speed Tweak and their associated nodes to further improve weapon performance, or what have you.

So, using an XL190 and Ferro gives you better heat and an extra 9/10 of a ton. You can use this to either max out armour, or drop the arms to 5 and the head to 1 (locust standard) to fit AMS and a half ton ammo if you're that way inclined.

If your rear armour is 2/3/2 your front armour can take a better hit, and you can twist enough to keep your rear clear.

You're using over 26% of your skill points, to gain less than 20 total structure (a mere 1-2 per location) and 10-15 armour (0.5 to 1.5 per location).

Try something like this:LCT-1E
With a supporting skill tree of this
You'll dance more effectively, be faster, have data at hand, FAR better heat management the SPL's will burn in 1/3 of a second, and in pursuit of getting reduced fall damage, you still get 1-2 total bonus structure + armour per location.