4831 replies to this topic

[DrxAbstract]

Ovion, on 20 May 2017 - 05:09 PM, said:

So, using an XL190 and Ferro gives you better heat and an extra 9/10 of a ton. You can use this to either max out armour, or drop the arms to 5 and the head to 1 (locust standard) to fit AMS and a half ton ammo if you're that way inclined.

If your rear armour is 2/3/2 your front armour can take a better hit, and you can twist enough to keep your rear clear.

You're using over 26% of your skill points, to gain less than 20 total structure (a mere 1-2 per location) and 10-15 armour (0.5 to 1.5 per location).

Try something like this:LCT-1E
With a supporting skill tree of this
You'll dance more effectively, be faster, have data at hand, FAR better heat management the SPL's will burn in 1/3 of a second, and in pursuit of getting reduced fall damage, you still get 1-2 total bonus structure + armour per location.

Between the website skill tree's values being incorrect for a LCT-1E (I was using it as a path outline) I can see how you would come to that conclusion, however:

1. An XL190 and Ferro with your skill tree has worse heat than the one I have outlined, except for having 5 more total Heat Cap, which I said would happen if you filled out the entire Operations tree's Heat related nodes. Which is completely irrelevant because my build generates 1.17 less heat per shot thanks to -9.75% Heat Gen. And dissipates it faster thanks to the extra DHS.

2. The LCT-1E gets 2.6% Armor and 4.1% Internal Structure per node. Now I'm not using the full Survival tree because I played with the nodes to see just how many it would take to gain a full point of Armor/Structure, which due to the low Armor/IS values you're working with, taking all of the nodes proved to be a waste because 8/10 Armor Hardening provided the same benefit as 9/10 did except for 1 additional point of armor for the CT and Legs, and so on while 10/10 gained nothing. That resulted in my specific build getting:

4 Armor and 3 Structure per Torso Section (RT, LT and CT).
4 Armor and 2 Structure per Leg.
4 Structure in the Head (Because Armor is at 2).

My build also has max armor for every relevant section: Both ST's, the CT and Legs, so not sure where you're getting 'max out armor' from--Arms and Head do not need it.

3. Using minimal rear armor has been, in my experience, a very bad habit to get into with the LCT and generally not a good idea as even a single PPC hit to either rear ST will instantly kill you, and HSR likes to do things like give your opponents rear section hits, especially on the CT, when such shots were not actually possible from the angles they were taken... To say nothing of the fact it's not your target's fire you should be concerned about, but their friends nearby.

4. Our builds 'dance' the same as far as actual movement goes. Save for the 5% less Turning Speed, which is relatively moot, yours only twists its torso faster and has a slightly higher Top Speed. Same Accel/Decel and same target gathering for a meager 7% loss of Sensor range. 1 node less on Radar Dep which I won't lose sleep over because 40% is more than sufficient to allow an extra Consumable, which would be a UAV in this case.


I used the 'wasted' points in Survival to invalidate the Operations tree while still improving the Mech's Heat Efficiency and making it noticeably more durable. I didn't feel Duration for SPLs was worth it, given the fact you spent 3 nodes to take your SPLs from an already low .50sec Duration to .444sec Duration (Not even close to 1/3rd of a second), versus getting Cooldown for 2.25% for an nearly identical rate of fire increase while heading toward other useful nodes, which Duration doesn't really allow... And I have 8 Cooldown nodes, versus your 3 Duration and 4 Cooldown, which makes the actual rate of fire(DPS) 9.14(Yours) versus 11.34(Mine)... But if you want to stick with Duration for the, in my opinion useless for SPLs, decrease in pew time that's your prerogative.

My build is more durable, runs cooler, has 1 more Consumable and fires faster with a longer range than the one you suggested while possessing the same agility, target gathering and fall damage for a loss of 20% Radar Dep, 7% Sensor Range and, as far as I'm concerned, pointless Hill Climb. Sure there's the 10KPH loss from using an XL180 versus an XL190 but, as I said, once Light Ferro Fibrous shows up it'll likely go right back to an XL190 so... Yeah. Excited for that.

[Ovion]

DrxAbstract, on 20 May 2017 - 09:43 PM, said:

Spoiler

Between the website skill tree's values being incorrect for a LCT-1E (I was using it as a path outline) I can see how you would come to that conclusion, however:

1. An XL190 and Ferro with your skill tree has worse heat than the one I have outlined, except for having 5 more total Heat Cap, which I said would happen if you filled out the entire Operations tree's Heat related nodes. Which is completely irrelevant because my build generates 1.17 less heat per shot thanks to -9.75% Heat Gen. And dissipates it faster thanks to the extra DHS.

2. The LCT-1E gets 2.6% Armor and 4.1% Internal Structure per node. Now I'm not using the full Survival tree because I played with the nodes to see just how many it would take to gain a full point of Armor/Structure, which due to the low Armor/IS values you're working with, taking all of the nodes proved to be a waste because 8/10 Armor Hardening provided the same benefit as 9/10 did except for 1 additional point of armor for the CT and Legs, and so on while 10/10 gained nothing. That resulted in my specific build getting:

4 Armor and 3 Structure per Torso Section (RT, LT and CT).
4 Armor and 2 Structure per Leg.
4 Structure in the Head (Because Armor is at 2).

My build also has max armor for every relevant section: Both ST's, the CT and Legs, so not sure where you're getting 'max out armor' from--Arms and Head do not need it.

3. Using minimal rear armor has been, in my experience, a very bad habit to get into with the LCT and generally not a good idea as even a single PPC hit to either rear ST will instantly kill you, and HSR likes to do things like give your opponents rear section hits, especially on the CT, when such shots were not actually possible from the angles they were taken... To say nothing of the fact it's not your target's fire you should be concerned about, but their friends nearby.

4. Our builds 'dance' the same as far as actual movement goes. Save for the 5% less Turning Speed, which is relatively moot, yours only twists its torso faster and has a slightly higher Top Speed. Same Accel/Decel and same target gathering for a meager 7% loss of Sensor range. 1 node less on Radar Dep which I won't lose sleep over because 40% is more than sufficient to allow an extra Consumable, which would be a UAV in this case.


I used the 'wasted' points in Survival to invalidate the Operations tree while still improving the Mech's Heat Efficiency and making it noticeably more durable. I didn't feel Duration for SPLs was worth it, given the fact you spent 3 nodes to take your SPLs from an already low .50sec Duration to .444sec Duration (Not even close to 1/3rd of a second), versus getting Cooldown for 2.25% for an nearly identical rate of fire increase while heading toward other useful nodes, which Duration doesn't really allow... And I have 8 Cooldown nodes, versus your 3 Duration and 4 Cooldown, which makes the actual rate of fire(DPS) 9.14(Yours) versus 11.34(Mine)... But if you want to stick with Duration for the, in my opinion useless for SPLs, decrease in pew time that's your prerogative.

My build is more durable, runs cooler, has 1 more Consumable and fires faster with a longer range than the one you suggested while possessing the same agility, target gathering and fall damage for a loss of 20% Radar Dep, 7% Sensor Range and, as far as I'm concerned, pointless Hill Climb. Sure there's the 10KPH loss from using an XL180 versus an XL190 but, as I said, once Light Ferro Fibrous shows up it'll likely go right back to an XL190 so... Yeah. Excited for that.

I did make the mistake of forgetting the site doesn't account for tonnage yet.
Some math is a little off due to when I posted.

regardless - you're still looking at only slightly more armour, which feels like a waste.
By max armour I was talking about arms / head, as shown in smurfy link.

If you're piloting a Locust effectively, and not standing still, constantly twisting and searching, the low rear armour isn't a problem.
That may just be an experience problem.

You also say a little slower - your tweaked speed is only .6kph faster than the stock 190.a full 11.9kph slower than tweaked.
Speed is life - maybe it's even that lower speed that increases your likliehood of taking one to the rear?

Better damage on position is better than DPS in a Locust - you're meant to be hitting 2-3 times then disengaging - especially with SPL.

Eh, I tried, you're still welcome to your opinion, I'll continue playing and tweaking until I update my guide.

Edited by Ovion, 21 May 2017 - 04:43 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

Ovion, on 21 May 2017 - 04:41 AM, said:

I did make the mistake of forgetting the site doesn't account for tonnage yet.
Some math is a little off due to when I posted.

regardless - you're still looking at only slightly more armour, which feels like a waste.
By max armour I was talking about arms / head, as shown in smurfy link.

The Locust may be fragile fragile, yet it is impressively durable at the same time thanks to its speed and size. A 20% and 40% boost to its armor and internals, respectively, is an exponential increase in its longevity.

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If you're piloting a Locust effectively, and not standing still, constantly twisting and searching, the low rear armour isn't a problem.
That may just be an experience problem.

There's a first for everything, I suppose... Never been told I lack experience with Locusts, Lol.

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You also say a little slower - your tweaked speed is only .6kph faster than the stock 190.a full 11.9kph slower than tweaked.
Speed is life - maybe it's even that lower speed that increases your likliehood of taking one to the rear?

Let's stop assuming I havnt been using 190XL, 165KPH Locusts up until this point, along with every other assumption. Being engaged by multiple targets happens and I'd rather have 5-6 Armor on my rear than 2-3 when it happens because 10KPH is not a huge difference when most other Lights can keep up with you anyway because maneuvering inherently diminishes escape velocity and no escape vector is completely safe from every direction... 30KPH would make a difference, however 11? Not so much.

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Better damage on position is better than DPS in a Locust - you're meant to be hitting 2-3 times then disengaging - especially with SPL.

As I said, -.05 seconds on burn time is a poor trade for 3 nodes and makes for an insignificant difference toward the accuracy of SPLs. Considering it takes me less time overall to put out 2-3 shots, and it makes for better protection against other Lights - I'd rather have that instead. As to how you're 'meant' to play, that's completely subjective; If you want to have frequently low scores and a make a minimal impression over the course of the match then sure, stick with the infrequent engagements. Changing the outcome and making a weighted, meaningful impact requires more than that--I play to make a difference, not merely exist on the field.

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Eh, I tried, you're still welcome to your opinion, I'll continue playing and tweaking until I update my guide.

No shame in trying... But I've been playing long enough to know better than listen to information clearly designed to help average players put out average performances, which is not a population you should be associating me with. Good luck with your book.

[Old-dirty B]

DrxAbstract, on 20 May 2017 - 03:32 PM, said:

Ehhh...

My Battlecust:

Tree: LCT-1E
MechLab: LCT-1E

Since the Mechlab site doesn't have trees set up for bonuses you can't see the real values from the Survival tree, etc. but those would be the literal armor values in the game pre-skills. Obligatory 2nd Consumable slot.

Every section gains 4-5 Armor and 2-3 Structure, allowing some shaving of the Arm and Head armors with a 180XL to reduce tonnage enough for both removing Ferro and adding another HS. That alone nullifies the Heat aspects of the Operations tree almost entirely, unless you completely fill it out, while still markedly improving survivability. Speed tweak is taken specifically to retain a speed slightly higher than a baseline 190XL and the Mech's Agility, aside from missing 5% Turn Speed, is maximized.

Sensors provide a well-rounded package of bonuses: Seismic and Radar Deprivation are not completely filled out, lingering around the 50% of their pre-tree performance, however they are still present. This allows you some freedom in your movements and awareness of the immediate area.

By being able to skip Operations entirely, and skimming Sensors, you have enough spare points to dump into Weapons to minimize the loss of the Cooldown and Range Weapon Modules (As well as the pre-tree chassis Quirks) combined with an impressive amount of Heat Reduction, allowing for remarkable freedom in utilizing your weapons while exponentially improving staying power, which is sorely needed for the poor Lolcust given the circumstances we find ourselves in during these post-tree days.

I believe, with the introduction of Light Ferro Fibrous tech, the build will be able to once again utilize a 190XL engine, which can either allow the shedding of Speed Tweak and their associated nodes to further improve weapon performance, or what have you.

Interesting build and design thoughts / process. It seems we both seem to found similar issues with the 1E build, although you didn't specifically mention these but i guess we all need to find the right balance between the different aspects of locust combat.
Heat efficiency and survivability seem to be the major concerns however how to solve or get around that highly depends on how you play the locust in the first place. Here's were differ..

Primarily im investing my skill points (and build) into maximum speed, accell, decell and turn speed, also sensors have big role in my gameplay (stealth / hit n run but very aggressive) therefore full radar derp and seismic sensor are essential to me.

Heat efficiency is the one i was struggling the most with, initially going for a lot of firepower and heat gen but after some playing and testing i concluded that my investments there weren't worth the skill points because in actual gameplay its pretty rare to get close to the nice cooldown and laser duration and if you do, you are severely limited by heat capacity and heat loss. The close range, already low cooldown and duration meant that any point spend here was resulting in a marginal gain. So in my latest iteration of the skill tree setup for my Locust 1E i moved all the points from firepower into armor hardening and coolshots. Armor hardening because of the armor quirks the locust already has and coolshots because the nodes interconnect and thus have a big impact on its cooling effects.

I can see and understand the idea of going slower with more durability and sustained dps (extra heatsink) but it also means you have to "stay there" to make use of that added stay-ability. As soon as you rely on hit n run (for which you dont need much cooldown and heat loss) you are not making use of its full potential

My idea is to make have the locust lean even more to an alpha warrior and thus rely less on dps with guerilla combat in mind and for that you need speed, agility and information...

My skill tree setup for the Locust 1E SPL

One way or another, there's no right or wrong, different ways to get the same goal and thanks for sharing your way!

Edited by B3R3ND, 22 May 2017 - 04:23 AM.

[Tim East]

Yeah, info-warfare was kind of my prime requisite for the close-in Locust when I skilled it. Put a heavy focus on mobility too, and took enough toughness perks to get 40% off fall damage just for those times when I run off something I shouldn't like a complete imbecile. Dabbled in firepower, but mathematically I agree that gains in general are going to be minimal there. I should probably look toward consumable stuff like UAVs, but I forget to use them half the time, especially cool shots.

[Erronius]

Still not sure what it is, but the Locust feels so different to me (even with max agility and 91 SP) that I'm asking myself if I can get the feel for the Locust with the new Skill Tree. Other people in matches don't seem to have issues with it, but right now I'm not sure if I have the patience to play more than 1 or 2 matches with a Locust at a time before moving on to something else.

[Burning2nd]

iM having a hard time,

i cant get the fancy foot work feel since the tree change, And im not sure how to adjust the tree

it feels heavy'r in a defensive stance, but doesn't have the same nimble feeling

wow posted @ the same time lol

where we just talking in a match?

[Erronius]

Burnin2nd, on 28 May 2017 - 03:02 PM, said:

iM having a hard time,

i cant get the fancy foot work feel since the tree change, And im not sure how to adjust the tree

it feels heavy'r in a defensive stance, but doesn't have the same nimble feeling

wow posted @ the same time lol

where we just talking in a match?

No, I don't think so. Though...I did just throw my hands up in frustration after going to brawl against a MG PB on River City (using a SPL -3M), getting clan-streaked by someone else in the back I think, and I'm not even sure how much damage I managed to do to the PB. I mean, yeah, brawling against another Locust can be frustrating, but I don't think any of the matches I've played in a Locust post-ST (-1V, PB and -3M) have felt "right".

On the flip side, I have a WLF skilled up and I was amazed at how...good..it felt. At how good it performed. Its agility was surprising, and it's a monster with -heat/-heatgen.

[Burning2nd]

WELL.

at least i know its not just me.. Im a PB pilot both of them dont feel right,

[Old-dirty B]

The locust surely is different and the skill tree does not allow you to get it at the same performance as before the patch.

Foremost the nerf in agility and sustained firepower (less heat capacity and loss) make a big difference in its gameplay, it now takes longer to take down an enemy and its much harder to avoid or spread damage. Before the patch the locust was effective enough to 1v1 head-on most other mechs, take down your opponent while minimising damage and disappear before other enemies could join the fight... Nowadays it just takes more time to kill and at the same time much harder to stay alive and from experience im more often double teamed then before, especially since i have never seen as much streaks as ever before...

Anyway, i had to change tactics a bit, avoiding 1v1 with lights and mediums (before i was seeking out for these engagements) and avoid taking on other mechs head-on - more then ever i should resort to hit 'n run tactics and fighting the enemy from their blind-angle. The overall reduction in turnspeed and agility still allows the locust to stay where it cant be shot... In short, a more careful and less aggressive approach seems to be work better atm.

[Tim East]

I do note that mine feel undergunned and just a hair sluggish compared to what I'm used to. Eh, screw it though. It's Locusts. If it wasn't hard, it wasn't Locust.

Not every match has to be quad gauss Kodiak or flamer-boat Nova trolling after all. There's no troll like a classic Locust troll.

I know it's not the ideal thread, but anyone have a clue what to do with Commandos? They feel extra trash to me, even more than I remembered, which is cool because it makes my Panthers feel legit amazing (had a 900 damage 6 kill 5 assist game in one the other night) but also a bit sad because they have nostalgia value in my heart.

[Virlutris]

Tim East, on 29 May 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

I do note that mine feel undergunned and just a hair sluggish compared to what I'm used to. Eh, screw it though. It's Locusts. If it wasn't hard, it wasn't Locust.

Not every match has to be quad gauss Kodiak or flamer-boat Nova trolling after all. There's no troll like a classic Locust troll.

I know it's not the ideal thread, but anyone have a clue what to do with Commandos? They feel extra trash to me, even more than I remembered, which is cool because it makes my Panthers feel legit amazing (had a 900 damage 6 kill 5 assist game in one the other night) but also a bit sad because they have nostalgia value in my heart.

I've been hearing that Commies feel better (at least according to a couple of their enthusiasts.

Dunno myself, haven't tried them yet.

There's a thread for Commie lovers though, albeit less well-trafficked than this one.

I'm still working up the courage to find out how the Mist Lynx fared.

[Burning2nd]

Ok... so a update...

I was able to get the same feeling... I mean it feels just the same.. Im back to 400+ damage rounds with 2 to 3 kills...

I threw 190 nodes @ the pb and kept messing with it.. At the end i was very simpley removing one from here and adding there...

THEE only difference is i lost a little bit of the weapon cool down, when im not alpha'n if i switched to chain fire, i would get a continual small pulse laser stream, there is not a slight hesitation between weapon 4 and 1 firing

I did copy my one PB to my 2nd PB and they both feel the same now... so.....

IT can be done you can get her back... just keep sacrificing nodes

[Virlutris]

Burning2nd, on 31 May 2017 - 01:22 AM, said:

Ok... so a update...

I was able to get the same feeling... I mean it feels just the same.. Im back to 400+ damage rounds with 2 to 3 kills...

I threw 190 nodes @ the pb and kept messing with it.. At the end i was very simpley removing one from here and adding there...

THEE only difference is i lost a little bit of the weapon cool down, when im not alpha'n if i switched to chain fire, i would get a continual small pulse laser stream, there is not a slight hesitation between weapon 4 and 1 firing

I did copy my one PB to my 2nd PB and they both feel the same now... so.....

IT can be done you can get her back... just keep sacrificing nodes

190 nodes? Like, you kept unlocking, fiddling and tweaking until you found the right topiary fkr the skill shrubberies, and at the end you'd unlocked 190 nodes?

I can totally believe that.

[Burning2nd]

Ive got more money then kerensky



shes good again.... my lil murder is back

ventress the assassin

[Tim East]

Soooo, great laser nerf in anticipation of the new tech shinies. Think I should finally invest in a missile Locust?

Or just switch to SLs and use the leftover tonnage for some other troll function?

Edited by Tim East, 20 June 2017 - 06:21 PM.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Tim East, on 20 June 2017 - 06:20 PM, said:

Soooo, great laser nerf in anticipation of the new tech shinies. Think I should finally invest in a missile Locust?

Or just switch to SLs and use the leftover tonnage for some other troll function?

Wait till new tech drops, then stick a SNPPC into your LCT-1V. Small lasers are really gimped atm, and locusts really don't have the tonnage for missiles or dakka.

That being said, I've heard good things about IS MLs. Maybe try 6 ML LCT-1E?

Edited by Fox With A Shotgun, 20 June 2017 - 07:10 PM.

[Tim East]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 20 June 2017 - 07:09 PM, said:

Wait till new tech drops, then stick a SNPPC into your LCT-1V. Small lasers are really gimped atm, and locusts really don't have the tonnage for missiles or dakka.

That being said, I've heard good things about IS MLs. Maybe try 6 ML LCT-1E?

They got buffed, but I still don't think they're good. SNPPC is gonna be cool though I think. I'm mostly looking forward to RACs though.

[Old dirty B]

Tim East, on 20 June 2017 - 06:20 PM, said:

Think I should finally invest in a missile Locust? Or just switch to SLs and use the leftover tonnage for some other troll function?

For me the Locust 1E 6x SPL remains the best locust, IMO a mech with this size and mobility (and limited heat) a pure knife-fighter / precision killer build works best. In short, i want the most focussed / pin-point damage out of every heat point spend in the shortest amount of time.
Even after the energy overhaul, the SPL's still offer the best DPS and DPH build and accuracy. Alright, there's an SRM2 build that provides even better DPS and DPH but that build is not only limited by ammo (2.5T == 537,5 dmg potential) but also has to account for projectile trajectory and spread... which do not fit the precision killer profile.

I have an alternative build for the LCT-1E, 2x MPL + 4x SL. Bigger alpha, the weapons sync alright and you have a bit more range and a bit less heat generation but at the cost of raw DPS and accuracy (longer duration). This build is interesting, but i need to adapt to it, the knife-fighter attitude keeps popping up which suit the 6X SPL the best but is a less desirable approach for this build - harassing from a little distance fits better here...

Another alternative is the 6x ML build, but thats even less of a knife fighter - not my style...

Edited by Old dirty B, 22 June 2017 - 04:05 AM.

[Old dirty B]

If only we had a variant with 8 - 10 energy hardpoints Then an all SL Locust build would be viable and very interesting.