92 replies to this topic

[A banana in the tailpipe]

It's the jenner, victor, or highlander.

Anything else is just tricking yourself into thinking your useful.

With a meta this narrow.... no wonder this game is on the brink.

[Varent]

whatever helps you sleep better at night.

[Kjudoon]

:::Looks at his very lethal LRM ON1, SDH, KTO and CPLT:::

ummmmmm......

:::looks back::::

errrr....

:::pinches bridge of nose.::::


Okay......

[Catalina Steiner]

Sometimes I am delusional some posts can compete in this forum.

It's not a post made by a user named "lockwoodx".

His posts are just tricking himself into thinking he would be useful.

This game isn't "on the brink", but your post is. Try again later. And sorry for not bringing falsifications for anything you brought on. It's not worth it because your post shows a lack of impartiality.

I would suggest to close this useless thread.

lockwoodx, on 12 January 2014 - 11:08 PM, said:

I Was Completely Delusional Most Most Mechs Can Compete In This Game

It's the jenner, victor, or highlander.

Anything else is just tricking yourself into thinking your useful.

With a meta this narrow.... no wonder this game is on the brink.

[Craig Steele]

I go OK in SHD's and WLR's (not the 6k, bucket of proverbial imo )

[SirLANsalot]

If it doesn't have JJ, or isn't 100 tons, they don't use them. This alienates about 50% of most mechs, and a lot of entire chassis altogether. Seems like people have locked onto the fact that if it doesn't use JJ, its a junk mech. The people that do that are missing out on an entirely new universe when you DON'T have Jump Jets. Its called piloting skill, knowing every square inch of a map and knowing where you can and cannot go, with JJ, it just means you don't need to be a good pilot. I am not saying to nerf JJ, but its a very interesting observation to see the trend heading that direction.

[Craig Steele]

SirLANsalot, on 12 January 2014 - 11:51 PM, said:

If it doesn't have JJ, or isn't 100 tons, they don't use them. This alienates about 50% of most mechs, and a lot of entire chassis altogether. Seems like people have locked onto the fact that if it doesn't use JJ, its a junk mech. The people that do that are missing out on an entirely new universe when you DON'T have Jump Jets. Its called piloting skill, knowing every square inch of a map and knowing where you can and cannot go, with JJ, it just means you don't need to be a good pilot. I am not saying to nerf JJ, but its a very interesting observation to see the trend heading that direction.

Also a massive stereotype.

Plenty of exceptional pilots are very happy to trade off firepower for additional mobility (JJ costs tonnage).

Bit rough to label a JJ pilot a lesser pilot than the guy who takes more firepower / armour and doesn't use it?

Everythings a trade in a balanced game. Atm though, game doesn't seem to balanced in other regards.

[Cerberias]

While the OP is a little narrow in his views, in that there are many mechs that work 90% as well as the 'meta' mechs he lists, or they may even work better given set situations. The problem is that there are many garbage mechs in this game, aswell. Generally, if it doesn't have JJ's or high mounted weapons (i.e. stalkers/jagers/blackjacks), then it's not going to compete against good players. ECM does give a slight advantage to the Atlas, and it does have its niche role, but when most games come down to a fire support war it's going to lose out with large profile and weapons mounted around it's ankles.

My only problem is when I see people running around in a CTF-4X, muromets, or some other 'large profile weapons around my ankles' mech, thinking they're awesome because that game they played against {Surat}. No, you did not do awesome, you might have played that specific game well, but it was the other team being {Scrap} that gave you that score. The problem is that it's very hard for new players to realise that mechs with these characteristics are horrible, and there is very little indication that this is the way, outside of asking good players or figuring it out for yourself through some serious critical thinking. You get a lot of people spouting off in the forums about how well they did in their terribad mech discounting all the games they got stomped, and thats what the new players see and try, as the 'top' players seem to be quite absent from the MWO forums generally.

We really need a proper guide for new players, telling them how the game actually is, explaining what that guy in the jumping mech just tore them apart with and what they can do to be on an equal footing.

Edited by Cerberias, 13 January 2014 - 12:29 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

People tend to gravitate towards options and away from limitations... Simple human nature to be drawn toward the choices that provide more or alternative options; That's what the Highlander, Victor, Stalker, Jenner (Insert opinion preference meta-mech) represent.

The preference of options versus limitations does not denote a compensation for lack or abundance of personal skill. It's merely personal preference - Having JJs, low or raised weapon hardpoints is simply a choice made to supplement your play style as each feature has specific tactics and dynamics required for their successful use. As i've pointed out in past threads, JJs have drawbacks to their use. If you take a closer look at raised hardpoints, especially torso mounted ones, you would see they have drawbacks like having difficulty hitting up-close, smaller targets and some terrain features make shooting around corners with weapons mounted in lower positions possible while raised hardpoints cant... and vice versa.

Outside specific case anomalies, most Mechs and Weapons are viable when played with these considerations.

[Craig Steele]

DrxAbstract, on 13 January 2014 - 12:58 AM, said:

People tend to gravitate towards options and away from limitations... Simple human nature to be drawn toward the choices that provide more or alternative options; That's what the Highlander, Victor, Stalker, Jenner (Insert opinion preference meta-mech) represent.

The preference of options versus limitations does not denote a compensation for lack or abundance of personal skill. It's merely personal preference - Having JJs, low or raised weapon hardpoints is simply a choice made to supplement your play style as each feature has specific tactics and dynamics required for their successful use. As i've pointed out in past threads, JJs have drawbacks to their use. If you take a closer look at raised hardpoints, especially torso mounted ones, you would see they have drawbacks like having difficulty hitting up-close, smaller targets and some terrain features make shooting around corners with weapons mounted in lower positions possible while raised hardpoints cant... and vice versa.

Outside specific case anomalies, most Mechs and Weapons are viable when played with these considerations.

LOL, I always have to read your posts twice Dr, too many big words for a simple man like me

But absolutely, all mechs should have trade off's / situational and the pilots responsibilty to unlock that advantage. Currently many do which is great.

However there are some other unbalanced aspects of the game and too often players (me included I sometimes think) group up the blame pool on one thing.

[Cerberias]

Unless the enemy is a light mech, running around your feet, you wont have a problem hitting them with high mounted hardpoints. Compare that to the numerous disadvantages, chief among them being that you really can't use cover effectively as you need to expose almost all of your mech to get your weapons into a position where they can fire. The only other downside for high mounted points is that they generally don't let you move horizontally past where the torso is at.. so a very slight close range disadvantage. Considering that I would wager most matches are decided in the first few kills, usually in a fire support war, and then snowballing, I'd consider the inability to provide safe fire support to be a very large weakness.

Also, I can't really think of a situation where low mounted hardpoints would be able to fire from a position where high mounted ones could not, I have to think they're probably not that common, and easily avoidable.

You are right in saying playstyle comes into it, but without proper team support, i.e. pugs, brawling is very hard to pull off with the abundance of medium and even long range weapons around making it very difficult to get into weapons range without either taking damage or team support. Especially considering that quite often as a brawler, you need to get into a position where you can hit the enemy, which generally means in their face. Being in the enemies face generally means that they, and all of their friends, can shoot you in return. Team support can make up for these flaws, but in a Pug a brawler will have a very hard time, especially on certain maps. So I'm not saying Brawlers can't work, but they're inconsistent, especially in pugs where you're much more reliant on your team compared to a fire support. That being said, I'm not talking about scrubby no JJ orions or CTF's brawling, I'm talking about the DDC's, Shadowhawks, Wolverines/Griffon brawlers with actual brawling attributes inherent to the mech, and usually JJ's.

Also, what is the downside to JJ's? They take up a very small amount of tonnage (generally 4 tonnes maximum), generate no heat unless you're sitting on the bottom end of the capp, and take up generally 1-4 slots mech depending. I think most people will agree that the negative side to JJ"s is very minimal, whereas if you look at the positives they include;
Adding a third dimension to movement resulting in more spread damage taken and increasing survivability,
Unpredictablility of movement, the burst from JJ's can quite often make people shoot legs or even miss altogether, and the sudden fall can do the same for shots going over the head.
Maneuverability, as they can move over most terrains with ease, giving them better positions and attack angles, generally.

The positives FAR outweigh the negatives when you look at JJ's. Unless you can't use them, lol. So yes, they need to nerf JJ's, imo they should generate 1 heat per tonne per second of thrust. You want to poptart in a highlander? You just added an extra 8 heat from JJ'ing. Obviously this would have to be paired with an increase of Victor JJ's to 1.5 tonne each, aswell as lowering the thrust from a single JJ/increasing thrust from multiple.

Edited by Cerberias, 13 January 2014 - 01:19 AM.

[Nik Reaper]

There is always the mavrck tier list for the new players to take a look at, and no matter what is said about the drawbacks of the meta choices ( high mounted, jumping mechs ) they are overwhelmingly advantageous in 90% of the situations you find you'r self in and if you are good at positioning and manuvering ( handy JJs ) you push that to 95% ...

So while these characteristics are not absolute, they are overall better choice.

If there were inforced rules like the atmosphere is not suted to JJ , you would see a bit of a meta shift for those maps but as is , even if you have the same gunnery skill as the enemy , if he is meta of the same~similar weight as you ( ex. ac20, ppc shadowhawk ) he will have an advantage.

[Cerberias]

Exactly Nik, they aren't absolute. There's a reason that the stalker even with its extremely high hardpoints has fallen out of fashion lately, and that's due to its lack of a Ballistic hardpoint for that low heat damage, aswell as JJ's - which are seen by many competitive teams as the be all and end all. They're still amazing in the hands of a skilled player, but while they'll beat even a Meta Poptart handily in a perfect situation, i.e. perfect cover, not being flanked, they'll generally lose if their cover is negated.

[3endless8oogie]

The way some of the equipment is designed, is just wrong.
JJ´s , ballistics, ecm are just simple upgrades, no sidegrade, no specialisation, no real tradeoffs.

You can do good in a mech without those "upgrades" , almost always you are at a disadvantage without them.

Edited by 3endless8oogie, 13 January 2014 - 01:52 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

Cerberias, on 13 January 2014 - 01:12 AM, said:

Unless the enemy is a light mech, running around your feet, you wont have a problem hitting them with high mounted hardpoints. Compare that to the numerous disadvantages, chief among them being that you really can't use cover effectively as you need to expose almost all of your mech to get your weapons into a position where they can fire. The only other downside for high mounted points is that they generally don't let you move horizontally past where the torso is at.. so a very slight close range disadvantage. Considering that I would wager most matches are decided in the first few kills, usually in a fire support war, and then snowballing, I'd consider the inability to provide safe fire support to be a very large weakness.

Also, I can't really think of a situation where low mounted hardpoints would be able to fire from a position where high mounted ones could not, I have to think they're probably not that common, and easily avoidable.

You are right in saying playstyle comes into it, but without proper team support, i.e. pugs, brawling is very hard to pull off with the abundance of medium and even long range weapons around making it very difficult to get into weapons range without either taking damage or team support. Especially considering that quite often as a brawler, you need to get into a position where you can hit the enemy, which generally means in their face. Being in the enemies face generally means that they, and all of their friends, can shoot you in return. Team support can make up for these flaws, but in a Pug a brawler will have a very hard time, especially on certain maps. So I'm not saying Brawlers can't work, but they're inconsistent, especially in pugs where you're much more reliant on your team compared to a fire support. That being said, I'm not talking about scrubby no JJ orions or CTF's brawling, I'm talking about the DDC's, Shadowhawks, Wolverines/Griffon brawlers with actual brawling attributes inherent to the mech, and usually JJ's.

Also, what is the downside to JJ's? They take up a very small amount of tonnage (generally 4 tonnes maximum), generate no heat unless you're sitting on the bottom end of the capp, and take up generally 1-4 slots mech depending. I think most people will agree that the negative side to JJ"s is very minimal, whereas if you look at the positives they include;
Adding a third dimension to movement resulting in more spread damage taken and increasing survivability,
Unpredictablility of movement, the burst from JJ's can quite often make people shoot legs or even miss altogether, and the sudden fall can do the same for shots going over the head.
Maneuverability, as they can move over most terrains with ease, giving them better positions and attack angles, generally.

The positives FAR outweigh the negatives when you look at JJ's. Unless you can't use them, lol. So yes, they need to nerf JJ's, imo they should generate 1 heat per tonne per second of thrust. You want to poptart in a highlander? You just added an extra 8 heat from JJ'ing. Obviously this would have to be paired with an increase of Victor JJ's to 1.5 tonne each, aswell as lowering the thrust from a single JJ/increasing thrust from multiple.

From my previous post on the JJ subject:

Quote

There's only one real issue with JJs, or more accurately, their use: Their ability to reliably sabotage hit detection while Mechs are airborne.

The benefit to your Mech determines how many to use: Improved agility and mobility over terrain requires 1. Effective jump-sniping and dodging require anywhere from 2 to max.

The drawbacks to JJs go beyond tonnage, crit slots and heat... examples:

1. Using them to evade, juke, quick turn, leap over or in general decelerates your mech, sometimes by as much as 100% (Proportional to how extreme the manuever/landing is), making you much easier to hit by your opponent or other enemies gunning for you as well as guaranteeing your shots will be few (And inaccurate) to none in the process of taking off and landing if you use them to break the fall.

2. Your JJ manuevers and subsequent elevation changes might avoid immediate threats from your current opponent(s) but it can break terrain cover, exposing you to your opponent's friends (If there are any).

3. Using them can result in shunting damage to undesired sections of your mech, typically the legs, which can be extremely useful or extremely detrimental, it's a bit of a catch 22.

4. Can cause undesirable consquences via terrain interactions with your Mech, such as landing on terrain features that exacerbate the previously mentioned examples.

For all the potential benefits of using JJs there are equally weighted risks involved. JJs are merely a feature that provide battlefield-enhancing dynamics; another layer of gameplay interaction and complexity for those who desire it.

As an addendum to #1, that speed reduction allows otherwise slower or JJ-less Mechs to catch you so while you can use them to avoid taking damage, it allows people otherwise incapable of catching you the opportunity to do so and you risk taking even more damage in the end.

As for higher hardpoints being able to peek over terrain, this may provide a smaller profile but also happens to expose the armor section containing those weapons, which is something of a disadvantage compared to the Mechs that expose entire side-sections which presents the possibility of taking damage to irrelevant sections as opposed to strictly the valuable ones.

Edited by DrxAbstract, 13 January 2014 - 02:19 AM.

[xengk]

My Kintaro 20! and you Awesome 8Q!
My highest K/D mechs! I have believed in you! How could you!
The forum says you have been lying to me all this while!

I WANT A DIVORCE!!!

[Turist0AT]

i dissagre with you.
Maybe the best light is a jenner, i dont know, dont use lights. Victor and Highlander are good becase of its balanced hardpoints, but you cant boat anything in them. You cant make them into balistic powerhouse like the ILYA and you cant make them into laser boat like the stalker.
They are as you say Jack of all traides master of none. The recent changes to the game made this kind of balanced(hardpoint/tonnage vise) mech VERY effective. Because boating has been hit with a nerf bat.

Edited by Turist0AT, 13 January 2014 - 03:29 AM.

[Turist0AT]

Cerberias, on 13 January 2014 - 01:12 AM, said:

Also, what is the downside to JJ's? They take up a very small amount of tonnage (generally 4 tonnes maximum), generate no heat unless you're sitting on the bottom end of the capp, and take up generally 1-4 slots mech depending. I think most people will agree that the negative side to JJ"s is very minimal, whereas if you look at the positives they include;
Adding a third dimension to movement resulting in more spread damage taken and increasing survivability,
Unpredictablility of movement, the burst from JJ's can quite often make people shoot legs or even miss altogether, and the sudden fall can do the same for shots going over the head.
Maneuverability, as they can move over most terrains with ease, giving them better positions and attack angles, generally.

The positives FAR outweigh the negatives when you look at JJ's. Unless you can't use them, lol. So yes, they need to nerf JJ's, imo they should generate 1 heat per tonne per second of thrust. You want to poptart in a highlander? You just added an extra 8 heat from JJ'ing. Obviously this would have to be paired with an increase of Victor JJ's to 1.5 tonne each, aswell as lowering the thrust from a single JJ/increasing thrust from multiple.

What?!
You want to nerf JJ, then we might as well nerf movement all together. While you move you produce heat and unable to cool how about that?

God. some ppl.

Edited by Turist0AT, 13 January 2014 - 03:49 AM.

[Escef]

I consider myself a pretty mediocre player. I see lockwoodx in a lot of drops. Logical conclusion is that he is also pretty mediocre. Especially as I usually don't see him do exceptionally well (or exceptionally bad).

So, locky, forgive me if I don't consider your words as worth any more weight than my own.

[Rhaythe]

lockwoodx, on 12 January 2014 - 11:08 PM, said:

It's the jenner, victor, or highlander.

Anything else is just tricking yourself into thinking your useful.

With a meta this narrow.... no wonder this game is on the brink.

Whatever, dude.