172 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

Guess the memory goes when you get old, eh?

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Hmm... well, what if the Targeting referred to in the OP (such as filling in the hollow triangle and so on) would only be available with a Targeting Computer?

Certainly be a nerf to sensors, but an interesting thought at least.

[Mystere]

My original set of Mark 1 eyeballs seems to work just fine against mechs under ECM cover.

[Prezimonto]

Morsule, on 15 January 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

Its OP because the floating Mech Triangle is Over Powered.

Nerf Triangles? Circles are better?

le sigh.. I can't even troll. ECM is bad. There's probably thousands of posts and hundreds of topics about it. Too bad PGI doesn't care.

Mystere, on 15 January 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

My original set of Mark 1 eyeballs seems to work just fine against mechs under ECM cover.

Until you have LRM's as your primary weapons system (note I'm not saying only but many mechs are designed with this in mind) which no longer work unless you have significant team support or are willing to expose your tender bits for 5+ seconds.

Edited by Prezimonto, 15 January 2014 - 06:46 PM.

[DocBach]

Are your eyeballs 1.5 tons of equipment? Because unless they are, tell me what other 1.5 tons of equipment in this game that has nearly the effect on gameplay as ECM.

Lets compare the yin to ECM's Yang, the Beagle Active Probe;

ECM:
Provides stealth field to team members in its radius blocking from detection, tracking, damage readout, guided LRM fire, streak missiles, counters itself

Beagle:
provides target information quicker, can detect shutdown 'Mechs, turns off ECM - beyond being an off switch for ECM has very little practical use

If they aren't going to cut back on ECM's function, they need to start looking at increasing other 1.5 ton pieces of equipment and make their utility more in line with it.

*also they should look at making the three-ton, ammo dependent NARC more useful. The whole reason ECM exists in the Battletech universe is to block advanced electronics like NARC and Beagle, which in MWO pretty much have no use beyond turning ECM off like some kind of bizzarro electronic warfare world.

Edited by DocBach, 15 January 2014 - 06:55 PM.

[Prezimonto]

DocBach, on 15 January 2014 - 06:47 PM, said:

If they aren't going to cut back on ECM's function, they need to start looking at increasing other 1.5 ton pieces of equipment and make their utility more in line with it.

I think they justify it because it's "special" equipment that only a few mechs can have, unfortunately due to it's completely over inflated value all that serves to do is make non-ECM variants of those mechs largely obsolete.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Mystere, on 15 January 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

My original set of Mark 1 eyeballs seems to work just fine against mechs under ECM cover.

On the other hand, PGI manages to give us so many maps that are dark, hazy, smoke-filled and/or white-out conditions (and some of those are hot places where heat sensors/night vision don't work), that those red squares and little triangles help an old, grizzled veteran see anything at all. Add that to the constant missile and ballistic rounds smoking and flaming up the cockpit glass, and it's a wonder we all just don't put on blinders and use the Force!

[Deathlike]

Prezimonto, on 15 January 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

I think they justify it because it's "special" equipment that only a few mechs can have, unfortunately due to it's completely over inflated value all that serves to do is make non-ECM variants of those mechs largely obsolete.

Spider-5V said:

Why?

Raven-2X said:

wat iz jenah?

[Steel Claws]

I would love to see any data that you have that indicates 25% of mechs used are ECM equipped because I see a LOT of drops were there are none or one or two at most.

I and many others just fail to see why some of you continue to find ECM over powered.

[DocBach]

Steel Claws, on 15 January 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

I would love to see any data that you have that indicates 25% of mechs used are ECM equipped because I see a LOT of drops were there are none or one or two at most.

I and many others just fail to see why some of you continue to find ECM over powered.

Really simple: what other piece of equipment does so much for so little? It's 1.5 tons, does not require any GXP or XP to use, very little c-bill investment, no downside at all like heat yet it can provide sensor/guided weapon invisibility to an entire team.

[Steel Claws]

How about arty and air strikes. Advanced zoom, target decay, Coolant flush and a few others that take ZERO tons and do far more. ECM is weak and impotent to most people but some people seem to think its a big deal - I don't. It really does very little for the tonnage.

[DocBach]

All of those modules you listed require several days worth of GXP or real money investment to unlock, and some are expendables which not only require that GXP invetment, but a continuing investment of either in game currency or real money to continue using. Some require actual tactical awareness and risk to employ like the air strike and artillery strike.

None of them are simply loaded on a 'Mech and do its role without further input from the user, and none provide nearly the utility as hiding your entire team from radar and providing missile immunity, even when you are in plain sight of the enemy. Add in the fact that there is no VOIP to reliably and quickly update your team of visual movements and you have a system which provides a distinct advantage, especially against players not on third person voice comms or in groups.

Again, take other 1.5 ton pieces of equipment (not a module) and tell me they have as much usefulness as ECM.

Edited by DocBach, 15 January 2014 - 10:14 PM.

[Steel Claws]

There also things that most if not everyone has. Not only that they can be equipped on EVERY mech. You asked what else could be done and I gave you several examples.
I would be willing to bet that at least 3 times as many people pack arty or air strikes as load ECM.

Edited by Steel Claws, 15 January 2014 - 09:57 PM.

[DocBach]

So because not every 'Mech can take it, it makes the fact that it has such a potent effect balanced gameplay? If it wasn't such an advantage, why have I never seen a 'Mech that can carry ECM not carry it?

Perhaps that's anecdotal evidence and I'm just in a low ELO where people use ECM on ECM capable 'Mechs.

...Again, what use of 1.5 tons of space in this game can drastically alter the game or provide nearly as much function as an ECM suite?

[Mystere]

Steel Claws, on 15 January 2014 - 09:56 PM, said:

There also things that most if not everyone has. Not only that they can be equipped on EVERY mech. You asked what else could be done and I gave you several examples.
I would be willing to bet that at least 3 times as many people pack arty or air strikes as load ECM.

I never leave the Mech Bay without both artillery and air strikes.

[Deathlike]

Mystere, on 15 January 2014 - 10:02 PM, said:

I never leave the Mech Bay without both artillery and air strikes.

I only go halfway on that. It's too expensive to carry that much (unless, it's 12-mans).

[DocBach]

Mystere, on 15 January 2014 - 10:02 PM, said:

I never leave the Mech Bay without both artillery and air strikes.

Do you ever use a 3L Raven or a D-DC Atlas without ECM?

[Deathlike]

DocBach, on 15 January 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

Do you ever use a 3L Raven or a D-DC Atlas without ECM?

HERESY! BURN THIS WITCH AT THE ALTER!

HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST SOMETHING THAT HERETICS SPEW!

As God as my ECM, I will not tolerate treachery of the highest order!

[DocBach]

I'm not saying nerf ECM (though I wouldn't be opposed to that). I want to see other things buffed to where there is a decision between taking ECM or some other electronic warfare device.

Comparing Beagle and ECM again:

ECM: defeats radar, disrupts missile locks but hey it can be countered by itself and Beagle Active Probe

Beagle Active Probe: gets paper doll information quicker, can target shut down 'mechs and counters ECM

If ECM is not present the BAP does very little to sway the course of the battle - even if BAP is present, ECM can still greatly change how a battle is played out. These are both 1.5 tons of equipment, yet one is near useless beyond being an off switch and needs greater ability to make it on par with the other.

In the current system, since ECM can counter itself, and all Beagle really does is counter ECM, stock electronic warfare designs like the Raven which come with both systems have no advantage. Beagle needs to be useful on its own right rather than being dependent on the chance of ECM being present. Providing active sensor capability like detection beyond line of sight similar to seismic sensors would be a good fit in line with its function in the source material.

Edited by DocBach, 15 January 2014 - 10:24 PM.

[Mystere]

DocBach, on 15 January 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

Do you ever use a 3L Raven or a D-DC Atlas without ECM?

I very rarely take out my 3L and do not own a DDC. But, I've "softened up" several of the former and a few of the latter with artillery or air strikes before moving in for the kill.

Deathlike, on 15 January 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

I only go halfway on that. It's too expensive to carry that much (unless, it's 12-mans).

Yes, it does get expensive.

I actually make a point to load them "just in case". But, in almost every game, I seem to encounter too many juicy targets just asking for them. I just can't resist dropping either of them on murder balls, usually from behind. The messages of dismemberment and curses hurled soon afterwards are more than worth the cost.