125 replies to this topic

[Cyborne Elemental]

Heat is the short term simple solution to AC dakkadakkadakka madness, the boating is becoming retardiculous.

Ranges seem appropriate, velocities could come down a hair, not as harsh as what happened to the AC-20 and AC-10 (ac-10 never needed to be nerfed.. ), but some adjustment there isn't a horrible idea.

AC-2 heat is pretty punishing as is, no need for change, since you can't staggerfire 2+ without a huge penalty anyway.

AC-5 could go to 2.0 heat per shot, even 2.25 without destroying its usefulness.

UAC-5 at 2.0 or higher would be appropriate.

AC-10 is good where its at.

LB-10x needs all the help it can get, good where its at.

AC-20 spot on.


Now whether Ghost Heat needs to be applied on AC-5/UAC-5, honestly do it one step at a time, if straight heat doesn't do it, then apply ghost heat in small increments, 1 thing at a time.

Edited by Mister D, 13 April 2014 - 12:01 AM.

[Rex Budman]

Heat and UAC5 would be pointless. Jam rates man...

[Turist0AT]

Mudhutwarrior, on 16 January 2014 - 05:03 AM, said:

I really cant stand nerf warriors anymore. This is just insane.

Bhael Fire, on 16 January 2014 - 07:53 AM, said:

*sigh*

f@cking nerf herders...

Agree with you guys, those f*ckers brought ghost heat apon us.

[Graugger]

I have an idea, instead of nerfing the weapons lets nerf the heatsinks! The single heat-sinks should dissipate .5 and the double dissipate 1 heat!

[Mcgral18]

Graugger, on 14 April 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

I have an idea, instead of nerfing the weapons lets nerf the heatsinks! The single heat-sinks should dissipate .5 and the double dissipate 1 heat!

Oh god why....

3 times heat, half dissipation. Flawless.

[Charons Little Helper]

Graugger, on 14 April 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

I have an idea, instead of nerfing the weapons lets nerf the heatsinks! The single heat-sinks should dissipate .5 and the double dissipate 1 heat!

That would only make ACs better since they're the most heat efficient weapons in the game. (except the AC2)

[FupDup]

Graugger, on 14 April 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

I have an idea, instead of nerfing the weapons lets nerf the heatsinks! The single heat-sinks should dissipate .5 and the double dissipate 1 heat!

How about no....

Buff the sinks so energy weapons used in large quantities can have similar usefulness as builds that mix energy and ballistics.

[Gryphorim]

AC2 AC5 and UAC5 should have half damage under min range, with round visibly pinging off of target (arming distance and such). Projectile speeds reduced as in OP, rate of fire slightly reduced as paul stated.

However, UAC should get a "jam" scale ie:- fire a few rounds = no jam chance. hold trigger = jam chance increases until 100% chance.

LBX AC Should do 1.2 - 1.5 damage per pellet. Total of 12 to 15 damage all up, but it will be scattered as it is now.

[SweetJackal]

Gryphorim, on 14 April 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

AC2 AC5 and UAC5 should have half damage under min range, with round visibly pinging off of target (arming distance and such). Projectile speeds reduced as in OP, rate of fire slightly reduced as paul stated.

However, UAC should get a "jam" scale ie:- fire a few rounds = no jam chance. hold trigger = jam chance increases until 100% chance.

LBX AC Should do 1.2 - 1.5 damage per pellet. Total of 12 to 15 damage all up, but it will be scattered as it is now.

Right now, if you don't make use of the UAC/5 double tap, you don't jam. So if you fire it at the same rate as an AC/5 you don't risk the jam%. A 'Jam Scale' would set the weapon to do double damage for a short burst with no risk, which is broken good for 1 ton and 1 crit.

Another problem with Jam Scales is that they need to reset at some point. There is no reasonable middle ground there, either it's short and serves to function for macro abuse or it's too long and it neuters the weapon. Forcing a reset after a jam has players forcibly jamming their weapons out of combat to reset the scale.

As far as LBX goes, a more reasonable change it to use Canister Shot that detonates within a certain range of the target or take the easier approach of changing the cone dispersion of the LBX to a cylinder, same spread at 100m and at 1000m. The latter is less "Sim" but both are better for weapon effectiveness. Increasing the damage per pellet only serves to have the weapon outclass the AC10 at closer ranges and makes it broken at point blank range.

Edit: I should also point out how broken a Jam Scale would make UAC/10s and UAC/20s. You're ensuring that they get 2-3 shots off per weapon at double speed which pretty much wrecks anything it faces.

Edited by SuckyJack, 14 April 2014 - 04:17 PM.

[Zordicron]

This must be the thread Paul read when he decided to change AC2's. OMFG SMALL AC ARE SO OP!!

[Doomie77]

Much whining. So nerfing. Such autocannon.

Getting sick of QQrs. But aren't we all....

[Kamikaze uy]

PERFECT....more nerfing...more whining....more nerfing...the story repeating. When will it end? where draw the line?

Hate ppl that think becouse saw someone do 1300 damage on an illya they have to nerf those weapons.
How about try it yourself and play 20 drops and see how many times u get to that many points...

Now its ridiculous, the ac5 has more range than the ac2!

Keep nerfing johnny...

[Kjudoon]

Let the ACQQrricane officially begin! Fire up the QQ Ragequit Counters! Close all whiner-tight doors! Seal the crybaby metabuild compartments! And hide the good silver!

The hottentots, poptarts and metahumpers are QQing to town to run amok!

Edited by Kjudoon, 15 April 2014 - 12:13 PM.

[FupDup]

Kjudoon, on 15 April 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

Let the ACQQpocalypse officially begin! Fire up the QQ Ragequit Counters! Close all whiner-tight doors! Seal the crybaby metabuild compartments! And hide the good silver!

The hottentots, poptarts and metahumpers are QQing to town to run amok!

If you didn't get the memo, poptarts are other meta-mechs are built around fire large alpha strikes at a single target hitbox and then ducking down into cover before the enemy can return fire. Reducing small AC rate of fire does not have much or any effect on this behavior. Reducing RoF simply harms those who used the smaller ACs for purposes other than hillhumping/poptarting.

[Khobai]

The AC2 is completely useless now. Theyve turned it into a way worse AC5 that has zero advantages other than projectile speed and tonnage (but the AC5 saves more than 2 tons in heatsinks by comparison, so the tonnage advantage is moot).

[Kjudoon]

FupDup, on 15 April 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

If you didn't get the memo, poptarts are other meta-mechs are built around fire large alpha strikes at a single target hitbox and then ducking down into cover before the enemy can return fire. Reducing small AC rate of fire does not have much or any effect on this behavior. Reducing RoF simply harms those who used the smaller ACs for purposes other than hillhumping/poptarting.

I was going for poetry of phrase. It's what I came up with at the time.

Khobai, on 15 April 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

The AC2 is completely useless now. Theyve turned it into a way worse AC5 that has zero advantages other than projectile speed and tonnage (but the AC5 saves more than 2 tons in heatsinks by comparison, so the tonnage advantage is moot).

The question is now this: What will you replace them with? Will Energy builds suddenly be 'de rigeur'? Will LRMs suddenly have a chance against the 12man AC meta? Time will tell.

I know brawlers are certainly rejoicing, as they should. THeir weapons get a big bump and the long range game takes a huge hit.

Edited by Kjudoon, 15 April 2014 - 12:20 PM.

[Wolfways]

FupDup, on 15 April 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

Reducing RoF simply harms those who used the smaller ACs for purposes other than hillhumping/poptarting.

And they need it reduced, or reduced damage per shell. My JM6-S is ridiculous.

[Khobai]

Quote

The question is now this: What will you replace them with?

Pretty obvious since AC5s/UAC5s are the only option left that fill the same role as the old AC2.

Once again paul has proven he doesnt have a clue.

Edited by Khobai, 15 April 2014 - 12:24 PM.

[Koniving]

Quite simply, autocannons in MWO are Rifles. Except Rifles (and by extension single shot ballistics) became obsolete due to firing too slow and not doing enough damage. (An Atlas with MWO's armro for a Hunchback would receive "6" damage from a heavy rifle of the 190mm range. Inner Sphere's largest AC/20 mounted on a mech or tank is a 185mm 4 shot burst fire weapon known as the Chemjet Gun.)

To be Battletech based, they need to look and feel like they do, but deal less damage per shot and pump out more shots.
The GM Whirlwind/5 is an AC/5 of the 120mm caliber. Descriptions of it are pretty similar to the 120mm cannon of an M1 Abrams tank except it required 3 shots to deal 5 damage.

Three of these to in what was described as a burst to deal 5 damage, then eject the cassette (magazine) and load in the next one.

In tabletop it wasn't that an AC/5 did "5" damage per shot but "5" damage per use within a 10 second period. The ammunition count of (15 - tabletop, 30 - MWO) is actually the "cassette" or magazine, or usage count. Ironically the same was also true of lasers, many of them fired a few times, however properly calibrated, even the most novice of pilot could manage to keep them on target for the same general area of the mech until the weapon has done what it can.

As for the range limitations?

Quote

An Autocannon is a type of rapid-firing, auto-loading direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) or kinetic rounds at targets in bursts. It is, basically, a giant "machine gun" that fires predominantly cased explosive shells though models firing saboted high velocity kinetic energy penetrators or caseless ordnance do exist. Among the earliest tank/BattleMech scale weaponry produced, autocannons produce far less heat than energy weapons, but are considerably bulkier and are dependent upon limited stores of ammunition.
Autocannons range in caliber from 30mm up to 203mm and are loosely grouped according to their damage versus armor.^[1] The exact same caliber of shell fired in a 100 shot burst to do 20 damage will have a shorter effective range than when fired in a 10 shot burst to do 2 damage due to recoil and other factors. Autocannons are grouped into loose damage classes.

Edited by Koniving, 15 April 2014 - 01:26 PM.

[Charons Little Helper]

FupDup, on 15 April 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

If you didn't get the memo, poptarts are other meta-mechs are built around fire large alpha strikes at a single target hitbox and then ducking down into cover before the enemy can return fire. Reducing small AC rate of fire does not have much or any effect on this behavior. Reducing RoF simply harms those who used the smaller ACs for purposes other than hillhumping/poptarting.

For the AC5 - it does make the poptarts suck that much more up close when my brawler chases them down... (I do agree though - they should have lowered AC2 heat to compensate the lower DPS)