201 replies to this topic

[Gaan Cathal]

Intruder, on 19 January 2014 - 06:51 AM, said:

Gauss ammo is entirely inert so it cannot explode and should not do in the game.

I think he means the gauss explosion, not it's ammo.

[Jack Spade Ward]

I like this ideia, it somehow takes us back to the origins, and would limit AC use (i am an AC lover). But please remember, gauss ammo does not explode, its a massive chunk of metal made in a bullet, not explosive, full kinetic damage.

Also, im a strong beleiver that repairs and ammo should be bought! People cried alot about this, but i tend to think that most dont know what this game is all about. Just increase match rewards to compensate. Do you guys remember the shotgun cat with 6 srm6? After a battle, it was simply to expensive to maintain all those srm wasted, one had to think if it was worth or not. Bring ammo and repair back on!

[Khobai]

Quote

BATTLETECH HAD THE SOLUTION TO BALLISTIC WEAPON BALANCE ALL ALONG.

All ammo explosions did was discourage people from using autocannons and force them towards gauss, ppc, and medium lasers... the three best weapons in battletech bar none.

This is not a solution.

[stjobe]

Gaan Cathal, on 19 January 2014 - 04:34 AM, said:

If critted ammo always exploded, per the OP's suggestion, the odds of the leg being blown off in the above example would be just shy of 14% - not exactly hyper-lethal

The odds of getting an ammo explosion on a single ton of ammo in an otherwise empty side torso is 4.2% (42% chance of a crit * 10% chance of an ammo explosion).

Put a heat sink in there and it's immediately halved to 2.1%; stick a ML in and we're looking at 1.3% chance of an ammo explosion (0.42 * 0.33 * 0.1 = 1.3%)

If ammo always exploded when crit, the percentages would be 42%, 21%, and 13% - still better than even to not explode.

LoneMaverick, on 19 January 2014 - 05:16 AM, said:

Ammo at 10HP with a near 1% chance to crit per roll is silly

It's even sillier, because as Gaan Cathal says:

Gaan Cathal, on 19 January 2014 - 04:34 AM, said:

especially when you factor in that a lot of weapons don't have enough damage to guarantee a crit big enough to destroy ammo anyway.

Not every crit gets the 10% chance of making the ammo explodes, it's only the crit that actually destroys the bin that gets that chance. If the crit does less damage than the amount of health the bin has left it has exactly zero chance of setting off an ammo explosion.

[MustrumRidcully]

Khobai, on 19 January 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

All ammo explosions did was discourage people from using autocannons and force them towards gauss, ppc, and medium lasers... the three best weapons in battletech bar none.

This is not a solution.

In fact, if it wasn't for ammo explosion, one could have claimed in the table top that AC/10 and PPC were practically balanced. 2 tons ammo, 3 heat sinks, 12 tons of weapon would probably suffice for a typical combat, just as 10 heat sinks and 7 tons for a PPC would suffice. The AC/10 has a bit lower range, but the PPC has a minimum range that happens to be exactly the amount of range difference between PPC and AC/10. Maybe that's accident, maybe it was design. It wasn't perfect (I think I'd rather take the bit of extra range, especialyl since minimum range in the table top doesnt mean you can't deal damage, it just means a penalty to hit), but it's freakingly close. But then you add ammo explosions, and the choice is clear - PPC.

[Trauglodyte]

I think that we can all agree on the fact that ammo explosions need to be more prevalent and that CASE needs to be more meaningful. I think the problem, though, is getting to a good medium on how much damage ammo explosions should do. The probability of getting a crit on an ammo bin is rather limited (problem) and, as was said, not all weapons are capable of doing 10 damage on a critical so that they can destroy an ammo bin (problem). And when you do cause an ammo explosion, it is so massive that it essentially destroys the mech (problem).

[Khobai]

Any game mechanic thats RNG with the penalty of instant death is a bad game mechanic. It was bad in battletech and its bad in MWO. its actually way worse in MWO because you only control one mech, where in battletech you at least controlled several mechs, which made losing mechs to extreme cases of RNG less pronounced.

1) ammo explosions should occur way more often, but they should not automatically kill you outright.

100% chance for ammo to explode for 15% of the damage sounds about right to me (if a bind of AC/20 ammo exploded, it would do 20 x 7 = 140 * 15% = 21 damage)

2) CASE should prevent most if not all ammo explosion damage in the same location (CASE should prevent 50%-100% of the ammo explosion damage)

Putting ammo in your arms and legs already gives you a 50% damage reduction when the damage transfers to your side torso, so CASE needs to give at least 50% damage reduction to match that. But since CASE takes up a crit slot and some tonnage, and forces you to put ammo in your side torso, it should probably reduce ammo explosion damage by more like 75% or even 100%.

Edited by Khobai, 19 January 2014 - 09:55 AM.

[Lokesh]

The Great and Mighty Table Top does not hold all the answers. In MWO have this amazing thing wherein you can aim. You know, choose the spot you want to hit and actually hit it? This simple fact is why MWO has a lot of differences from TT. 100% chance of explosion plus aiming = bad. The whole reason people complain about ballistics is because some people can aim really well and you're proposing to make that deadlier. No.

[Gaan Cathal]

Khobai, on 19 January 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

1) ammo explosions should occur way more often, but they should not automatically kill you outright

2) CASE should prevent most if not all ammo explosion damage in the same location

They don't kill you outright. If you're running ammo, don't put it in your CT. If you're running ammo and an XL, don't put it in your CT or ST. In that situation, with Case used, you will never be killed by an ammo explosion.

Unless you put it in your cockpit, obviously.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 19 January 2014 - 09:45 AM.

[Curccu]

Ammo explosions are OP

But seriously chance of explosion could be a lot higher, not anything like GR but something that COULD happen more than twice a year.

[Curccu]

Gaan Cathal, on 19 January 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

They don't kill you outright. If you're running ammo, don't put it in your CT. If you're running ammo and an XL, don't put it in your CT or ST. In that situation, with Case used, you will never be killed by an ammo explosion.

Unless you put it in your cockpit, obviously.

My understanding is that C.A.S.E. does not prevent that sidetorso blowing up, just CT.
Ammo explosion in leg --> damage overflows to sidetorso = dead
Ammo explosion in arm --> damage overflows to sidetorso = dead
So XL engine makes C.A.S.E. totally useless

[Khobai]

Quote

They don't kill you outright. If you're running ammo, don't put it in your CT. If you're running ammo and an XL, don't put it in your CT or ST. In that situation, with Case used, you will never be killed by an ammo explosion.

Unless you put it in your cockpit, obviously.

You are wrong. I have killed countless Hunchbacks by shooting their ammo in their arms/legs. It kills them outright. Even Jagermechs die most of the time if you get an ammo explosion on them.

Some of the larger mechs like Highlanders may not die outright, but balancing the game around Highlanders is not how it should work. We need to balance the game around medium mechs.

And sometimes even larger mechs can be killed by cascading ammo explosions. Its just not a good game mechanic. RNG should NEVER instantly kill you.

Quote

My understanding is that C.A.S.E. does not prevent that sidetorso blowing up, just CT.

Correct. CASE prevents damage from transferring from the side torso to the CT. It will not save the ST from being destroyed however. CASE needs to be changed so it helps protect XL engines.

Edited by Khobai, 19 January 2014 - 10:09 AM.

[stjobe]

Lokesh, on 19 January 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

100% chance of explosion plus aiming = bad.

If you have been following along, 100% chance of ammo explosion doesn't mean "the mech will explode as soon as its hit", it means any shot on an exposed section with ammo in it has a 42% or lower chance of exploding - down to as low as 3.5% (a single ammo bin in a side torso stuffed with 11 other items is 3.5% chance of getting an ammo explosion even when ammo explodes 100% of the time it is crit).

Curccu, on 19 January 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

My understanding is that C.A.S.E. does not prevent that sidetorso blowing up, just CT.
Ammo explosion in leg --> damage overflows to sidetorso = dead
Ammo explosion in arm --> damage overflows to sidetorso = dead
So XL engine makes C.A.S.E. totally useless

This is correct. CASE only stops the damage transfer, it doesn't save the location it is in (and it can only be mounted in side torsos). XL+CASE is either an XL or a CASE too many.

In the case of a regular engine though, CASE stops the CT from blowing up and saves the 'mech.

[Zerberus]

If CASE ALSO worked as it did in tabletop, blowing out the rear armor and saving everything else from damage (as opposed to absolutely no effect until the entire section is gone as is teh case in MWO), maybe this discussion could have merit.

Until then, both of us have to accept that this is not TT, but MWO

[FupDup]

Zerberus, on 19 January 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

If CASE ALSO worked as it did in tabletop, blowing out the rear armor and saving everything else from damage (as opposed to absolutely no effect until the entire section is gone as is teh case in MWO), maybe this discussion could have merit.

Until then, both of us have to accept that this is not TT, but MWO

You're thinking of CASE II.

[Felbombling]

Players would just flock to energy weapons and ignore altogether ammunition based weapons. Not only that, but the ammunition requirements in MechWarrior: Online are more robust than in TT. I cannot think of a single weapon, other than the Machine Gun, that I don't carry more ammunition tonnage to support in MechWarrior: Online than I would in table top play. More ticking time bombs to eventually/potentially go off.

[stjobe]

StaggerCheck, on 19 January 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

Players would just flock to energy weapons and ignore altogether ammunition based weapons.

Players would still see the benefit of the ACs damage delivery method; putting all their damage in one location. They'd just have to think twice before loading up on as many ACs and as much ammo as they could carry.

It would put a much needed check on ACs.

[Yiazmat]

StaggerCheck, on 19 January 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

Players would just flock to energy weapons and ignore altogether ammunition based weapons. Not only that, but the ammunition requirements in MechWarrior: Online are more robust than in TT. I cannot think of a single weapon, other than the Machine Gun, that I don't carry more ammunition tonnage to support in MechWarrior: Online than I would in table top play. More ticking time bombs to eventually/potentially go off.

No, they would not. They would just have to CASE thier ammo, or try and hide it in the arms and head. It's not my fault that they ALWAYS PUT THEIR AMMO IN THE LEGS WITH LITTLE ARMOR! =D

And like StJobe Said:

stjobe, on 19 January 2014 - 03:54 AM, said:

It's 10% chance to get an ammo explosion, and to damage ammo you need to crit it (which is a 42% chance for most weapons).

So, to get that ammo to explode you need to:
* fire at an exposed section with ammo in it.
* crit (42% chance).
* have the crit do damage to the ammo bin and not e.g. the hip actuator (crits are randomly distributed).
* have that crit do enough damage to destroy the ammo bin.
* then, and only then, do you have a 10% chance to get an ammo explosion.

In practice, the chance of ammo explosion is way, way below 10%.

and

stjobe, on 19 January 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

If you have been following along, 100% chance of ammo explosion doesn't mean "the mech will explode as soon as its hit", it means any shot on an exposed section with ammo in it has a 42% or lower chance of exploding - down to as low as 3.5% (a single ammo bin in a side torso stuffed with 11 other items is 3.5% chance of getting an ammo explosion even when ammo explodes 100% of the time it is crit).

It's just so flipping small there's no worry of it really. the ammo debt chance would still not actually be 100%, even if a crit is landed that -could- destroy a bin. It actually has to hit the bin! Anyways, It was always a gamble carying AC's, just like it's ALWAYS a gamble running XL engines, but noone EVER crys that XL's are underpowered because they go dead as soon as you loose a torso. That's the rules! You can't cry over the rules of one and accept the rules of another blindly! Accept them all and move on.

You know, if I REALLY wanted to be an arse, I could have brought up that ammo EXPLOTIONS! (There's Mr. Torgue again, been playing BL2 =D ) caused an area of effect explotion around the mech itself, potentially damaging and destroying other mechs in it's blast radi. Oh the {Scrap} I could cause with that.... Suicide Spider anyone? Engine and nothing but tons of AC/20 ammo packed inside and go Atlas hugging =D

Edited by Yiazmat, 19 January 2014 - 10:48 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

The OP makes a good suggestion but it is not an end-all fix, but more like a solution of many to be piled onto a huge problem. It would help but wouldn't solve it all.

You have to get close enough to the snipers or live long enough to poke through their armor, first.

[Yiazmat]

Mister Blastman, on 19 January 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

The OP makes a good suggestion but it is not an end-all fix, but more like a solution of many to be piled onto a huge problem. It would help but wouldn't solve it all.

You have to get close enough to the snipers or live long enough to poke through their armor, first.

meh, not my problem PGI keeps adding bandages when it needs surgery. I'll just add more bandages because that's all they're willing to do.

Edited by Yiazmat, 19 January 2014 - 10:51 AM.