91 replies to this topic

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Crazy Wolfgang, on 23 September 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:

Thanks very much for clarifying that and the advice.
I like that 5S you've created but the 250 engine is slooow. I'm used to mechs as nimble as HBKs with 250 engines. Fast in accelerating as well as twisting.

It sure is slow- but it's not meant to frontline. It's supposed to stump along with the Assault 'mechs and provide whichever side of firepower is most lacking at any given moment- tearing things open, or shredding their insides. Trying to run ahead with this Thud or do anything but escort assaults is using it for a purpose it wasn't built for.

Crazy Wolfgang, on 23 September 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:

I think you put the PPC in the torso for sniping right? I agree that's smart use for em but I notice I get in a lot of engagements where I feel the need to have arm mounted weapons.

Essentially. Again, this thing isn't meant to be shooting at nimble targets excepting with the LB-X, and that sparingly to boot. It's an anti-heavy/anti-assault support machine exclusively.

Crazy Wolfgang, on 23 September 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:

I kind of like this loadout. I'm primarily an Assault mech escorter in pugs. I stick near the DDC or DW and shoot at whatever is too distracted by the big guy to notice me.
I like "direct damage" weapons over DoT weapons (lasers) because I don't like lasers burn time. I feel like I can only hold it on a quarter of a second before the target has moved (minimizing my actual damage ).
For that reason I prefer PPCs.

If you're going to do that, then Endo-Steel should be thrown in- you can step it up to http://mwo.smurfy-ne...770840fa165d535 very easily and then you have not only more ammo for everything, but better heat sinking capability, really important if you're going to fight things heavier and better armored than you.

I understand your concern on energy weapons there- personally, I'm worse at reflex-firing than I am at holding lasers on target- so I tend to go the opposite direction a lot of the time.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 24 September 2014 - 11:17 AM.

[the darkness in all of us]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 24 September 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

It sure is slow- but it's not meant to frontline. It's supposed to stump along with the Assault 'mechs and provide whichever side of firepower is most lacking at any given moment- tearing things open, or shredding their insides. Trying to run ahead with this Thud or do anything but escort assaults is using it for a purpose it wasn't built for.

Essentially. Again, this thing isn't meant to be shooting at nimble targets excepting with the LB-X, and that sparingly to boot. It's an anti-heavy/anti-assault support machine exclusively.

If you're going to do that, then Endo-Steel should be thrown in- you can step it up to http://mwo.smurfy-ne...770840fa165d535 very easily and then you have not only more ammo for everything, but better heat sinking capability, really important if you're going to fight things heavier and better armored than you.

I understand your concern on energy weapons there- personally, I'm worse at reflex-firing than I am at holding lasers on target- so I tend to go the opposite direction a lot of the time.

I have to send more thanks for this advice & guidance. I'm learning that the Tbolt can fill a wide variety of roles even based on engine speed (due to more free tonnage for weapons if willing to trade speed).

So as a slow assault escort I have to ask, let's say you have a Dire Wolf, a AS7D, and a HGN733, which will you escort in order?
Slowest or...?

I will put endo in that build --thanks for that advice! I just have to make sure I can cram everything in there I can!

I'm kind of so-so at reflex firing. I can trigger when I have a target under my crosshair, just have trouble holding it on after. That's why I like instant action weapons.

[Sevronis]

I would have to stay I love this heavy mech. I wasn't sure I would at first, but it definately grew on me. It is definately a versatile and decently durable chassis. Here is my experience with them.

Surprisingly my best variant for a while was the -5SS, which I made as more of a sniper. I know many like to fill up every single hardpoint with a weapon, but frankly, I see hardpoints as guidelines than 'must use'. As for what I used on the 5SS I had 3 ML and SRM4 in the LT, 1 ERPPC in RT and ERLL in RA. Sometimes I would put the LL up with the PPC if I desired to, but most of the time it stayed in the arm. The PPC would mainly be used as the usual shoot and dodge snipe, while the LL in the arm was used more when on the move or painting a medium or light that ran by. The MLs and SRM were not really used much unless I got caught in a brawl. I did try the dual PPC option in the RT after removing the SRM 4 for space and slots, but....I wasn't about that life for that mech and went back to using the ERLL.

Now my 2nd best at the time was my -5S(P). Deciding on a build that worked for me took a while, but after perusing Sarna looking for ideas (since once in a while I tend to try out 3050 or earlier canon variants of the same or around the same tonnage for a mech....for that challenge), I ran into the Tempest. Same tonnage. Same available weapon hardpoints. The only difference was that the Tempest came with JJ and my 5S could not AND the Tempest used a 260XL. The base loadout for weapons was 1 LPSL, 3 ML, Gauss, and SRM6. Well since I wouldn't have JJ, this gave me room to play with so since the 5S's missle rack is huge, I gave the SRM artemis and just used a 280XL engine and max armor with DB HS where possible. It performed rather well. I even tried out the 2nd variant of the Tempest where the Gauss was replaced with an AC10. That gave me 3 more tons to play with how I wished. This loadout also did well. Now the other thing of note about the -5S that is different from the other variants is the primary missle rack, which will show up to 20 pods at once, meaning the full cluster. The other variants will only show up to 10 pods meaning if an LRM 20 was there, it would have to fire twice, and I would just rather use an LRM 10 there isntead of a 20 for less weight and less ammo need. However due to the larger missle rack on the 5S, it fits the role of LRM support better than the others to me. Right now I am using a fairly 'stock' build for the challenge, made to closely resemble the actual stock. I kept the LRM15, upgraded the SRM2 to a SSRM2, the LPSL is now an ERPPC, and I kept the 3 ML and the 2 MG as they were. With DBL HS and Endo Steel, it still uses a 260 STD engine and still had room to toss in a BAP. Sure, sure, not the kind style everyone else may use, but hey, I like to be traditional once in a while (especially right now with me planning to create builds using ONLY the stock engine of the 'prime' variant on Sarna, just for the heck of it).

On to the 9SE. This one I'm a bit on the fence about. The JJ are handy and does make a decent skirmisher. I've used both a STD 300 and 300XL in it. With the STD, I've had matches where both sides were gone and I still lived somehow (usually if my side one or if it was Conquest). The major downside to this variant is that 80% of the hardpoints are in the LT, meaning that depending what weapons you were using in your RA, you might as well be dead at that point. Granted if you have 2 energy weapons in that RA, you may or may not be still useful based on what you have in there. I've found myself crippled in this way much too often for my liking on this variant that I mostly end up using an XL engine, cause again, I may as well be dead if that torso blows out. But thats my experience. Others may have faired better.

Now onto the newest variant, the 9S. I really like it. Being similar to the 5S in weapon type hardpoints, with the differences of the missles being in LT instead and 2 energy points in RT and one more on RA, I used the exact same build as I did with the 5S and it faired equally the same for me. However, lately I've taken off the SRM6, the AC10 (or Gauss) to UAC5 and switched the LPSL to an ERLL, using the extra weight for 2 more ML in the RT and more HS and playing with engine size.

These, like most of my builds, tend to use 3-4 triggers. 5 if I must, but I try to find a way to combine similar weapons on the same reticle or range (like the SSRM2 and MGs on my current -5S build. The streaks won't fire til I have a lock and with using my MGs, they would have to be close anyway for me to use it.)

Edited by Sevronis, 30 September 2014 - 09:55 AM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Crazy Wolfgang, on 29 September 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

I have to send more thanks for this advice & guidance. I'm learning that the Tbolt can fill a wide variety of roles even based on engine speed (due to more free tonnage for weapons if willing to trade speed).

So as a slow assault escort I have to ask, let's say you have a Dire Wolf, a AS7D, and a HGN733, which will you escort in order?
Slowest or...?

First priority is going to be the one that goes the same direction as most of the other 'mechs on my team. You cannot discount the benefit of being in a group for slower 'mechs- more massed firepower is always always really important, especially if everyone in the mass has the wits to shoot the same things as one another.

If all three are moving together and heading for the front lines, then I would stick with the Atlas, for several reasons. First of all, Atlases tend to be built for endurance- a front-line Atlas is going to soak a lot of fire, it tends to move closer to the 65-70 kph range, most Atlases that run to the front line have heavy short-range firepower, and generally they need either holes torn open for their SRMs and LB-X or someone to punish things they tear open with their Large Lasers and AC/20.

By contrast, Highlanders have more variable engine selection- they run XLs at times, and Atlases nearly always don't- and will thus tend to fall a bit faster, they have jump jets and thus are harder to stick with when using a non-jumping Thud, and the majority of them are kitted out for long range combat. This means that even one that heads for the front line will tend to stop well behind it, and this Thud is not a back-liner by any means, despite its own XL engine. Finally, Highlanders have a much less balanced weapons spread. Huge numbers of players will use only the right side (energy/ballistic) or only the left side (missiles) for main firepower on a Highlander, which makes it very easy to neuter most Highlanders. There's an exception to this- if I know the Highlander pilot and know that they're carrying significant weaponry on both sides (which I do in both my Highlanders, but few other pilots do) then I might choose the Highlander, since its agility will be a little closer on par with the Thud.

The Dire Wolf would be my second choice, notwithstanding the exception Highlanders I already mentioned. Dire Wolves aren't, strictly speaking, as durable as an Atlas (that CT sticking way out in front), and really need help at close range versus light 'mechs, which that Thud is not built to do. They have plenty enough firepower on their own, and are much less likely than an Atlas to be kitted out for mostly holepunching or mostly facesplatting. They're also even slower than that Thud- the From The Blue actually hits 68 kph, which is more of an Atlas speed, and well beyond the Dire Wolf's Speed Tweak'd 53 kph. Dire Wolves don't need firepower boosts, they need an agile escort or a specialized/partly-specialized light-sweeper. That said, they do soak hits and draw fire better and for longer than a HGN typically does, since they have a very even (left-vs-right) weapons loadout most of the time.

Ideally, though, it shouldn't be a 1v1v1 choice. What should happen is that either all three are in the same larger mass of 'mechs, in which case the From The Blue moves around in that mass, contributing to different places all the time and thus never drawing much aggression at any given moment while supporting everyone in turn, or that the two slower ones (usually the AS7 and DWF) are together in one 'anchor' mass and the more mobile HGN is in a second group that is moving to flank or attack from a dead angle- in which case, the From The Blue belongs with the AS7 and DWF, ready to advance steadily alongside both of them when it's time to put the pressure on.

Crazy Wolfgang, on 29 September 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

I will put endo in that build --thanks for that advice! I just have to make sure I can cram everything in there I can!

I'm kind of so-so at reflex firing. I can trigger when I have a target under my crosshair, just have trouble holding it on after. That's why I like instant action weapons.

Yeah, so you're better at point-fire and reflex-fire than holding a target, which is partially inverse for me. Nothing wrong with that, it's just a difference.

[Dawnstealer]

They're pretty good brawlers. My recommendation is to slap in a STD 295 or bigger engine. Once it gets that speed tweak, and is moving at 80kph+, it's surprisingly nimble.

Tbolt regularly flip-flops with my Phracts for best Heavy.

[the darkness in all of us]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 30 September 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

First priority is going to be the one that goes the same direction as most of the other 'mechs on my team. You cannot discount the benefit of being in a group for slower 'mechs- more massed firepower is always always really important, especially if everyone in the mass has the wits to shoot the same things as one another.

If all three are moving together and heading for the front lines, then I would stick with the Atlas, for several reasons. First of all, Atlases tend to be built for endurance- a front-line Atlas is going to soak a lot of fire, it tends to move closer to the 65-70 kph range, most Atlases that run to the front line have heavy short-range firepower, and generally they need either holes torn open for their SRMs and LB-X or someone to punish things they tear open with their Large Lasers and AC/20.

By contrast, Highlanders have more variable engine selection- they run XLs at times, and Atlases nearly always don't- and will thus tend to fall a bit faster, they have jump jets and thus are harder to stick with when using a non-jumping Thud, and the majority of them are kitted out for long range combat. This means that even one that heads for the front line will tend to stop well behind it, and this Thud is not a back-liner by any means, despite its own XL engine. Finally, Highlanders have a much less balanced weapons spread. Huge numbers of players will use only the right side (energy/ballistic) or only the left side (missiles) for main firepower on a Highlander, which makes it very easy to neuter most Highlanders. There's an exception to this- if I know the Highlander pilot and know that they're carrying significant weaponry on both sides (which I do in both my Highlanders, but few other pilots do) then I might choose the Highlander, since its agility will be a little closer on par with the Thud.

Wow! Very very good info. Basically I think I'll be sticking with the Atlases.

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The Dire Wolf would be my second choice, notwithstanding the exception Highlanders I already mentioned. Dire Wolves aren't, strictly speaking, as durable as an Atlas (that CT sticking way out in front), and really need help at close range versus light 'mechs, which that Thud is not built to do. They have plenty enough firepower on their own, and are much less likely than an Atlas to be kitted out for mostly holepunching or mostly facesplatting. They're also even slower than that Thud- the From The Blue actually hits 68 kph, which is more of an Atlas speed, and well beyond the Dire Wolf's Speed Tweak'd 53 kph. Dire Wolves don't need firepower boosts, they need an agile escort or a specialized/partly-specialized light-sweeper. That said, they do soak hits and draw fire better and for longer than a HGN typically does, since they have a very even (left-vs-right) weapons loadout most of the time.

Ideally, though, it shouldn't be a 1v1v1 choice. What should happen is that either all three are in the same larger mass of 'mechs, in which case the From The Blue moves around in that mass, contributing to different places all the time and thus never drawing much aggression at any given moment while supporting everyone in turn, or that the two slower ones (usually the AS7 and DWF) are together in one 'anchor' mass and the more mobile HGN is in a second group that is moving to flank or attack from a dead angle- in which case, the From The Blue belongs with the AS7 and DWF, ready to advance steadily alongside both of them when it's time to put the pressure on.

Ok I get how to use this one now. Basically a heavy class "assault mech." That's pretty cool I'll have to try it out
I seriously do need to get used to slower engine speed/torso twist rate though.

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Yeah, so you're better at point-fire and reflex-fire than holding a target, which is partially inverse for me. Nothing wrong with that, it's just a difference.

It's all part of me Need for speed

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Crazy Wolfgang, on 01 October 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:

Wow! Very very good info. Basically I think I'll be sticking with the Atlases.

Keep in mind that my advice here is specifically relevant to the TDR-5S From The Blue.

Different tactics are warranted by different loadouts with different speeds and weaponry.

The TDR-5SS Thundershock, for instance, is one of my front-liner Heavies. When driving that, I tend to plow to the front of the murderball, flanking when I see an opportunity. If there's a sniping/missiling phase going on, then the LRM-10 helps me bide my time (and contribute) until the actual brawling can begin. At that point, I start picking targets and tearing them up bit by bit. The arm-mounted dual large lasers give the Thundershock an excellent light-mech deterrent and a good way to punish medium-weights that try to take advantage of the barrelly shape. Slower firing of the large lasers lets me use the quartet of mediums to burn open locations on other heavies and assaults, and the engine is a nice size to keep up both a good speed and relatively constant torso-roll. This one relies on moving near-constantly- if the right arm starts being in danger, I turn the left side towards the greatest concentration of enemy firepower and start shooting whatever's in that direction while running past the main enemy guns.

The TDR-9SE Greast, on the other hand, is just what it's called- a greased thunderbolt. Five medium lasers with that kind of heat dissipation is enough to tear entire sides off of Stalkers in just a few volleys- which are pulled off much faster than most 'mechs can refire the lasers without melting. The jets and speed then let it veer off and leap over obstacles to get the hell out of the line of fire so it can come back and melt more face later. For this one, it's the right side that can afford to be sacrificed (as two medium lasers is worth less than three), although I always try to soak some fire with the empty left arm as well. The raw speed of this one lets it compete with brawly medium 'mechs at their job and its tonnage and armor let it keep doing so for longer than they are able.

The TDR-9S Chaac, on the fourth hand, does something else entirely. This one hangs out on the front lines as well, where heavy 'mechs are common, but it fills two different roles. During the early parts of a fight, the TAG and AC/5 are used together (I have them in unison-fire in one firing group) to designate and barrage targets, and the LRM rack is used to ensure missile damage and TAG bonuses. The dual AMSes make this machine exceptionally durable during the long-range engagements- and once that's over, it charges in and brawls like an assault 'mech, keeping the TAG up, emptying the AC/5 the rest of the way, and burninating the peasants with its medium laser chain. With the Chaac I can usually expect to die horribly, but I can also expect to pick up lots of assists, TAG bonuses, and damage just by being in the middle of the hairball on the front line with the oddball equipment setup I use there.


Main point being- don't set yourself as 'assault support'. The Thuds all have different weapon hardpoints (and one has jets and one has dual AMS). Build them differently from each other, learn to do as many different things as you can, and when you pick up new 'mechs you'll have a lot more options open and a much better understanding of the overall game. 'Mechs like the Hunchie, Thud, Blurgh, and (surprisingly) Raven are all very good for that- since they're relatively middle-of-the-road with variants that pack very different hardpoint configurations, they make excellent learning/practice 'mechs, and with that same practice you can then turn them into startlingly deadly specialists (like my Greast T-Bolt, which apparently has the best overall marks for individual performance out of all four of mine).

[Defender Rococo Rockfowl]

I've been playing with the TDR for a few months now (I don't game every week). I started with the 9S that was free (my first mech).
I read some early posts in this thread so decided to get an an XL 300 and load up on weapons.
It got splattered pretty fast once noticed -- side torso death 90% of the time.

Giving up on XL engines so bought a STD (315) to try out some builds. The torso twist is MUCH better (still feels sluggish tho).
However it's really hard to jam anything in cause the engine is HEAVY.

BTW I prefer JJs, so now that I've saved up enough I only pilot the recently purchased 9SE and don't plan to use the other TDRs once my 9SE is elited.
Love the JJs but really miss that ballistic hardpoint.

Starting to think the 315 is overkill and probably will downgrade to a 310. Anyone have advice on improvements?

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Defender Rococo Rockfowl, on 04 October 2014 - 11:49 PM, said:

Starting to think the 315 is overkill and probably will downgrade to a 310. Anyone have advice on improvements?

This depends a lot on what you want to do with it.

XL engines in Thuds are hard to make work- you have to pick an engine large enough to benefit from, or find a way to make the lower endurance acceptable. If you want the high engine rating a lot, consider the TDR-9SE Greast I use- medium lasers are a very good go-to weapon and relatively efficient.

Slower Thuds really do move more like Assault 'mechs, though they're usually fast enough and agile enough to escape scrapes that actual Assaults have to rely on their armor to get out of- it's a strange kind of hybrid mentality sometimes.

That said, you could always accept being slow and use that to pack on the weaponry.

I wouldn't recommend using an XL in the 9S- the main draw points of the 9S are the high-mount right shoulder energy points (good for sniping over obstacles) and the dual AMSes (good for putting up a missile umbrella during sniping/missiling combat or adding further durability when brawling). XL engines aren't terribly advantageous to either shoulder-sniping or leveraging durability, so the 9S is a bad match for that.

If you're not using one or the other of those, it doesn't act any different from any other Thud, and you might as well use a different Thud in that case and get either dual missile hardpoints that don't mount to the same side torso as your cockpit is over, jump jets, or a better energy hardpoint setup.

As for the build you have there, it's a bit too scattered- small lasers haven't got a good range match to the SRM, it's fast but doesn't carry a good brawling weapon set, the PPC on the right arm is very far from the cockpit and thus hard to shoot around obstacles, and the LRM has a borderline-useless level of ammo. It looks a lot like a stock build- trying to do a little of everything and compromising too far overall. Also, ER PPCs are way too hot to use in close combat reliably without a much heavier heat sink investment, jsyk.

I'd recommend the following: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d24e675ba2ea4cb

Keeping the PPC on the torso your cockpit is mounted to guarantees you can shoot whatever you see even when peeking out of cover, unless you're peeking over something. The dual LRM-5s are more efficient in tonnage, wasted ammo when someone ducks to cover, refire rate, and missile concentration than the single LRM-10, and the added heat sink means you get superior DPS for a slightly shorter (3 seconds or so) maximum time at long range. The two mediums on the right arm have much more brawling flexibility, letting you wave the arm around at lighter 'mechs and catch them when torso weapons would fail, and again the extra DHS is a saving grace, letting you deal more damage faster than the dual small laser and SRM-4 setup for almost as long when fired alongside the ERPPC, with a better range for your maximum damage output. Additionally, this lets more ammo be loaded for the LRMs, getting you more missiles by far for delivery, and you're not relying on ammo for a close-range weapon.

I split the ammo up like I did for a reason- the head ammo will be consumed first, then the CT, then the side torsos- the right torso is the most likely to blow up in this case , but you could easily swap one jump jet with that half tonne of ammo and erase that tendency completely.

Overall the SRM-4 and two small lasers turns down your efficiency, especially with only 50 missiles.

[Defender Rococo Rockfowl]

First of all, Crobat-san, thank you very much for the advice, builds, and added info on combat tactics regarding each build. Very helpful!

Quickdraw Crobat, on 05 October 2014 - 12:31 AM, said:

This depends a lot on what you want to do with it.

What I want to do and what I actually can do may be two different things.

Anyhow, what I want to do is be able to pepper my enemies with LRMs and PPC fire from range, drop back to cover while the PPC recharges then repeat.
I like the direct impact of PPC as opposed to the "spread out " burn-time of lasers but am not completely against the use of Large Lasers, especially the ER type.

The goal is to have the enemy's armor worn enough so that they reach "brawling" range with me that that a few choice short range weapon hits are enough to take them down.
For brawling weapons ideally I would've wanted an LBX autocanon, or a couple AC2s but... no ballistic hardpoint on the 9SE make this impossible. I looked at the damage the LB10X does (10) which is what led to the decission to mix the SRM4 and light lasers. Honestly I don't like the small lasers and would rather just have a SRM6.

Finally, to support that mobility I need a mech that goes above 80 kph and has enough jump jets to support a sustained five second jump.
In summary, I need a balanced mix of speed, mobility, armor, and firepower that make a highly effective and reliable Mech.

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XL engines in Thuds are hard to make work- you have to pick an engine large enough to benefit from, or find a way to make the lower endurance acceptable. If you want the high engine rating a lot, consider the TDR-9SE Greast I use- medium lasers are a very good go-to weapon and relatively efficient.

I found XL engines in Thuds are hard to make work the hard way in my 9S which is why I know I want a STD engine from now on.
The Greast is a good build but won't work for me due to its the range limitation. I find a lot of my engagements in River City and Canyon Network are over 600M, and in Frozen City occur around 400~450M. Tourmaline and Alpine are the only maps where extreme range fighting seems to be the norm. Mordor, Forest Colony, and the new map seem to be where close engagements are frequent.

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Slower Thuds really do move more like Assault 'mechs, though they're usually fast enough and agile enough to escape scrapes that actual Assaults have to rely on their armor to get out of- it's a strange kind of hybrid mentality sometimes.
That said, you could always accept being slow and use that to pack on the weaponry.

I will eventually try this, just before I start piloting assault mechs.

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I wouldn't recommend using an XL in the 9S- the main draw points of the 9S are the high-mount right shoulder energy points (good for sniping over obstacles) and the dual AMSes (good for putting up a missile umbrella during sniping/missiling combat or adding further durability when brawling). XL engines aren't terribly advantageous to either shoulder-sniping or leveraging durability, so the 9S is a bad match for that.
If you're not using one or the other of those, it doesn't act any different from any other Thud, and you might as well use a different Thud in that case and get either dual missile hardpoints that don't mount to the same side torso as your cockpit is over, jump jets, or a better energy hardpoint setup.

I won't be piloting the 9S anymore unless it's to unlock efficiencies to allow me to elite the 9SE.
It's now a laser boat called "Standard Nerds."

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As for the build you have there, it's a bit too scattered- small lasers haven't got a good range match to the SRM, it's fast but doesn't carry a good brawling weapon set, the PPC on the right arm is very far from the cockpit and thus hard to shoot around obstacles, and the LRM has a borderline-useless level of ammo. It looks a lot like a stock build- trying to do a little of everything and compromising too far overall. Also, ER PPCs are way too hot to use in close combat reliably without a much heavier heat sink investment, jsyk.
I'd recommend the following: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d24e675ba2ea4cb
Keeping the PPC on the torso your cockpit is mounted to guarantees you can shoot whatever you see even when peeking out of cover, unless you're peeking over something. The dual LRM-5s are more efficient in tonnage, wasted ammo when someone ducks to cover, refire rate, and missile concentration than the single LRM-10, and the added heat sink means you get superior DPS for a slightly shorter (3 seconds or so) maximum time at long range. The two mediums on the right arm have much more brawling flexibility, letting you wave the arm around at lighter 'mechs and catch them when torso weapons would fail, and again the extra DHS is a saving grace, letting you deal more damage faster than the dual small laser and SRM-4 setup for almost as long when fired alongside the ERPPC, with a better range for your maximum damage output. Additionally, this lets more ammo be loaded for the LRMs, getting you more missiles by far for delivery, and you're not relying on ammo for a close-range weapon.
I split the ammo up like I did for a reason- the head ammo will be consumed first, then the CT, then the side torsos- the right torso is the most likely to blow up in this case , but you could easily swap one jump jet with that half tonne of ammo and erase that tendency completely.

Overall the SRM-4 and two small lasers turns down your efficiency, especially with only 50 missiles.

Thanks for the constructive critism. I agree with you... short range weapon mix is too scattered to be effective. A SRM6 with a full ton of ammo would be better.
I like your recommended build and may have a shot at it. I had a similar build but with the MLs (3 on mine but it was too hot) and PPC locations switched.
And you're right, if you aren't using both missile points, then 2 LRM is more efficient than a LRM 10. I was only taking into account that the Thud's missiles pod only has 10 tubes. Honestly I prefer an LRM15 but am told it's not effective on the Thud due to the pod only having 10 tubes which is why I wastefully stuck that LRM10 there, so thanks!

I don't have a problem using PPCs on the right arm: I edge around a corner with my right side and hit reverse before my target reticle hits the corner and it gives just enough time to pop off a shot with the PPC and I'm already returning to cover while it recharges.

I'll give one of these a shot.
Raider
Your mod'ed recommendation

[phalanx]

The Thunderbolt is the primary reason I bought the Phoenix Pack.

For those interested in stock variants:

TDR-5Sb(My current "ROYAL" ride)

TDR-5Sd

TDR-5SE(Tech 1 version of TDR-9SE)

Disclaimer:These variants are "Stock", which means their performance will be underwhelming in standard play. In order to get the most out of them, might I suggest Stock Mech Mondays or Stock Mech Eras (Wednesdays).

[Defender Rococo Rockfowl]

phalanx, on 06 October 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

The Thunderbolt is the primary reason I bought the Phoenix Pack.

For those interested in stock variants:

TDR-5Sb(My current "ROYAL" ride)

TDR-5Sd

TDR-5SE(Tech 1 version of TDR-9SE)

Disclaimer:These variants are "Stock", which means their performance will be underwhelming in standard play. In order to get the most out of them, might I suggest Stock Mech Mondays or Stock Mech Eras (Wednesdays).

Very cool post
I also love the "less-loved" Tbolt.
Cool that you are actually playing stock builds! I want to participate the stock mech matches but since I am normally working when the matches are going on the timeline kind of hampers that.

Interesting compromises you made on the 5SB. Nicely done.

The 5SD seems like a pretty "MWO friendly" build. How's it fare?

Interesting comparing the 5SE with the 9Se (my favorite TBolt). What a difference in heat dissipation!

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Defender Rococo Rockfowl, on 05 October 2014 - 04:22 PM, said:

Raider

That you might drive this kind of terrifies me, just because of how little ammo you have for that LRM. If long-range combat is the main purpose of your 'mech, that's just plain old not going to be enough LRM ammo unless you refrain from using the LRMs most of the time- at which point, you're better off not bothering.

I recommend if you want to use a build like this, step that 15 down to a 10- you'll get 18 shots per battle instead of 12- and slot in two heat sinks (preferably to the engine). This will let you fire more frequently when needed. 10 DHS is not enough unless your main weaponry is an LB-X or two. It really just isn't. Get caught on your own and any light 'mech will gleefully dodge your first volley and then shred you absolutely to bits.

Similarly, dropping that SRM-6 to a 4 and adding a medium laser will increase your close combat damage, reduce your reload time, and make you less ammo dependent (you might be able to get away with a half-ton of SRM ammo in that case- use it to beef up your legs a little).

Defender Rococo Rockfowl, on 05 October 2014 - 04:22 PM, said:

Your mod'ed recommendation

I still have to take issue with your choice of laser placement- in close combat, the arm mount's flexibility of aim is so much more vital than when sniping or taking pot-shots. A light 'mech finding you at the wrong time (something most good light pilots are especially skilled at doing) will just ruin your whole day.

If you're not worried about that at all, though, then go ahead with that.

Defender Rococo Rockfowl, on 05 October 2014 - 04:22 PM, said:

Anyhow, what I want to do is be able to pepper my enemies with LRMs and PPC fire from range, drop back to cover while the PPC recharges then repeat.

For a similar effect with better fire-to-hit time (thanks to PPC projectile slowdown), consider the following:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b70112984b3ef9e (Victor Ballistic version)

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...dafce143a3c186a (IV-Four Ballistic version)


However, that's besides the main point- you see, there are other 'mechs that do the job you've got your Thud doing better:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...84ef1f0c076f4e2
(Wolverine ERPPC)

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e33912f0d768a97
(Quickdraw ERPPC)


The Thunderbolt is not a 'mech for doing the thing you're trying to do- you can coax it into that behavior, but the activity you've described is better suited to a Quickdraw or one of the heavier Medium 'mechs. I'm fully aware I'm doing something similar when I run the Greast, but that's mostly a 'for the lulz' build anyway (despite its weirdly amazing performance).

Heavy 'mechs are an interesting niche, you see- it's in the 65-75 tonne range that you get the highest efficiency out of all 'mechs ever. A 70 ton 'mech going a given speed will have a larger percentage of its total weight for equipment than any other weight of 'mech (assuming all 'mechs are maximum armor). The Thud is slightly less efficient than that, but not a whole lot- and with its barrelly shape, weird cockpit position, and lower base engine size, it's clearly meant to be a thing running around with a bunch of weapons, not a few-weapon specialist.

The role you're describing is typically assigned to lightly-modified Dragons, the Griffin, and the Wolverine (both in tabletop and in MWO, interestingly), who all do it better than the Thud does- which is why it gets given to them. They're designed and specialized for that sort of work.

The Thud... isn't. It's not really a specialist for anything, unless 'endurance' counts as a specialty in this game (jury seems to still be out on that). It's a great stepping stone and remarkably flexible in that it can do a lot of things, but it doesn't do any specialist roles nearly as good as specialized 'mechs for those roles do.

Not to say that you can't run your Thud that way, but... keep that in mind.

[Kin3ticX]

The TDRs are pretty crappy. I unfortunately wound up buying the phoenix version and being really really unhappy with it. There is a new quirk system coming, so fingers crossed. The worst part is the 30% 5s turned out like garbage and I never could make those hardpoints or hitboxes humm like needed.

Probably the best build/variant would be the 2LL, 5ML, 20DHS, STD300 build on the SS. This is no idle claim.

Regarding alternative IS heavy mechs for puggingl

4xERLL on a QKD-5K
Gauss, 2xLL, 2xML on a 3D (or 2xUACS 2xLPL)

ideas can be found here
https://docs.google....g2a7f92d4c_6019

Edited by Kin3ticX, 07 October 2014 - 02:26 AM.

[Malleus011]

I'd disagree with calling it crappy. It can't do what a Jagermech or Cataphract or Catapult can do, but it's not supposed to.

It's really an all-rounder. My favorite TDR-5s(P) build is mixed - MGs, MLs, ERPPC, LRM15. It can snipe, but not as well as a dedicated sniper. It can LuRM, but not as well as a dedicated missile boat. It can brawl, but not nearly as well as a dedicated brawler.

Interestingly enough, all the long-ranged weapons are on the right side, all the close-in stuff on the left. I grit my teeth and run the STD260 and find a lot of matches where I've stumped the Thud through to the halfway point and we're winning - and my right half is finally blown away. No worries - I can still fight the last half of the battle with the last half of my Thud.

It's not as straightforward as the Jager, which is easily a better 'mech for the weight. But it's not bad, either. Though I would welcome some quirks.

BTW, it's really solid in stock matches. Just watch the heat.

Edited by Malleus011, 07 October 2014 - 07:34 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

Malleus011, on 07 October 2014 - 07:33 AM, said:

I'd disagree with calling it crappy. It can't do what a Jagermech or Cataphract or Catapult can do, but it's not supposed to.

It's really an all-rounder. My favorite TDR-5s(P) build is mixed - MGs, MLs, ERPPC, LRM15. It can snipe, but not as well as a dedicated sniper. It can LuRM, but not as well as a dedicated missile boat. It can brawl, but not nearly as well as a dedicated brawler.

Interestingly enough, all the long-ranged weapons are on the right side, all the close-in stuff on the left. I grit my teeth and run the STD260 and find a lot of matches where I've stumped the Thud through to the halfway point and we're winning - and my right half is finally blown away. No worries - I can still fight the last half of the battle with the last half of my Thud.

It's not as straightforward as the Jager, which is easily a better 'mech for the weight. But it's not bad, either. Though I would welcome some quirks.

BTW, it's really solid in stock matches. Just watch the heat.

The obvious problem with generalist builds or stock+ is they don't do anything well.

edit: further clarification: I am talking about the high mix kind of generalist or "bracket-build". I also call them trash builds or garbage 'mechs, in a loving way. Whenever I target a mech which has every hardpoint filled with a different weapon, I save the term, "special snowflake" for those.

However, many low mix builds work very well. Its that fine line between specialization and generalist and it gets subjective.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 07 October 2014 - 11:52 AM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

I think the main issue you're likely to be looking at, Kin3, is the difference between a build planned for a particular slot on a team, and a build that's supposed to be functional regardless of the circumstances.

Overall, the Thud is a terrible specialist. However, if you're looking for a flexible team member or perhaps you're not playing with a large (~7-12) group, it makes an excellent choice with a more generalized build, since it can then cover holes pretty much anywhere (as long as said hole doesn't require something fast or small).

I definitely wouldn't say that putting a different weapon in each hardpoint (or even having only two of each weapon if you're running more than six weapons) is a good idea regardless of the 'mech- but the Thud can handle carrying LRMs, large lasers, and medium lasers together just fine. That's not a 'special snowflake' by the definition you seem to be using, but it can very easily be a firing-bracket based build and a generalist while still being very competent.

The real question is where does the line come in between 'trying to bracket too hard' and 'mixed enough weapons to cover everything', and that can be really variable. My CTF-1X Thresher has a thoroughly mixed weapons loadout, but has always performed very well (partly because I usually reserve the LB 10-X for firing alongside the medium lasers) despite that. On the other hand, I've tried some more-mixed builds on other chassis that just don't work- the Thud is one of those. Even my TDR-9S Chaac really only has three weapon types- an AC/5, an LRM rack, and a bunch of medium lasers.

[orion0117]

I've only played mine a few times since I got the "free" TDR-9S. It has its ups and downs as far as gameplay.

Don't get into anything you can't finish is my best word of wisdom. Hang around the back of the pack, load a Adv. Sensor module and help spot. Look for opportunistic shots. That's how I play this: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3fb1eff103aba65

If you can get into position, it has an impressive alpha for what it is and can do it a few times.

[Jody Von Jedi]

Not to hijack this thread, but just a quick opinion on my build would be appreciated since this thread is still active after almost a year. Need some help with the 5SS.

I've settled on a couple of builds that work for me for the 5S and 9S. The 5SS has me stumped. Haven't tried this in practice yet, but what do you think of this build?

5SS - 2 LL, 1 PPC, 1 LRM20

I know it would be considered a specialist loadout by most, but the 2 LL are there for the close® in work.

I've tried the 2 LL and 5 ML thing, but I have a lot of trouble brawling in energy boats. I don't have the self control to keep the thing from overheating.

Jody

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Jody Von Jedi, on 08 October 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

Not to hijack this thread, but just a quick opinion on my build would be appreciated since this thread is still active after almost a year. Need some help with the 5SS.

I've settled on a couple of builds that work for me for the 5S and 9S. The 5SS has me stumped. Haven't tried this in practice yet, but what do you think of this build?

5SS - 2 LL, 1 PPC, 1 LRM20

I know it would be considered a specialist loadout by most, but the 2 LL are there for the close® in work.

I've tried the 2 LL and 5 ML thing, but I have a lot of trouble brawling in energy boats. I don't have the self control to keep the thing from overheating.

Jody

I'm kind of surprised you're considering a build with two large lasers and a PPC if you don't have the self control to avert overheat.

My personal rule of thumb for all builds (not just NRG) is that if it can fire at full rate for 30 seconds without overheating, then it's good enough for most any situation- if after 30 seconds, you and your target are both still present and intact, something is wrong.

If you're having heat issues, I'd say the PPC should go- while my usual inclination would be to go for 5xML and more heat sinks/engine, if you'd prefer to avoid the five medium lasers there's more than just that way to go.

This gives you enough heat sinks to go at full firing rate at long range for nearly a full minute, and over nine minutes without the LRM-20 firing. You don't really have the empty left arm for shielding that your current build has, but the longevity-of-fire on this version is hilarious.

As an alternative, this drops the large lasers for a trio of medium pulses and boosts your speed, giving you a minute and a half to fire just the medium pulses at full rate before overheat. Plenty to wreck anything's face or be completely obliterated yourself.