70 replies to this topic

[Mott]

Hey all

Still learning, every time i enter a skirmish. And one thing I continually learn is that my favourite mech class - mediums - currently seem to be quite outclassed by every other class in MWO.

Many users obtain a medium thinking it's going to be a great balance of a smaller profile than heavies, faster than any heavies/assaults, and better armored and armed than a light.

The reality seems quite different. I have just one medium so far... HBK-4P and have been quite underwhelmed with it's firepower (i have 6 mlas) and it's armor (i've only cheated a little on the legs and rear RT, everywhere else has great armor). It gets shredded every game and i rarely get more than 200 damage, even if i survive till the end. It moves pretty good at 80kph and i've squeezed as many dhs on it as i can. But it still overheats too easily (chain firing) and crumples under heavy fire.

I've noticed that the scaling seems a little off. HBKs "look" larger in-game than many heavies (dragon, jager & 'pult) and instantly draws a lot of fire on the field for this reason.

And many of these issues don't seem isolated to the HBK or me specifically. I really enjoy the Cataphracts. I absolutely tear through any HBK, Kintaro, Centurion, Cicada or Trebuchet i face with my 4x AC5s or paired 2x PPC + 2x AC5s. If they stand up to 10 or 12 volleys, I'm surprised. And usually by the end of that exchange i still have 85%+ of my phract's armor remaining.

This shouldn't be the case. Mediums should be hardier than that. Harder to hit than that. And capable of dealing a little more damage than that.

So, after all that, I guess my question is... can we expect better mediums? Either in the form of some tweaks to existing chassis, or, will we get some lethal new chassis in the not too distant future like the Bushwacker?

Add:

I just realized after posting that there are new mediums coming for C-bill purchase - Shadowhawk, Wolverine and Griffin, I believe?

If so... maybe one or more of them will address my concerns.

[AaronWolf]

The Medium-chassis is not really underpowered in a general sense. It is only underpowered with Tonnages meaning nothing.

The hitbox/size things are not really gonna be played with.

Though speed I do hope is tinkered with. Since Heavies/Assaults that can reach the max speed of a Hunchback is absolutely wrong and should be altered. Because it brings forth the question "Why even bother with this when I can get that and have more weapons, armor and (Insert other stuff here)?"

(Editted and cut it down, because it was a lot of BLAH BLAH and not enough good stuff. )

Edited by AaronWolf, 23 January 2014 - 10:26 AM.

[Corison]

To be honest, the medium unit is just that.. Average in all regards. You out gunned/armored by heavier unit as it should be... Your out maneuvered by lighter nits as it should be. There shouldn't be any inherent advantage in being hit to a medium (size) as that's supposed to be accounted for in a units seed.

Your going lose in any specific comparison but you have the versatility to choose what you match with. You come up against a Heavy/Assault? Run. Need to fight a light for a cap? You have the tonnage advantage.

Mediums are always going to lose or have no real role in this type of game. The power the medium (and the light) comes into play with campaign/cost/met limitation. Without those limitations heavy/assaults are king.

[Ryokens leap]

OP, try Shadowhawks and Blackjack BJ-1. Look at builds in mechspecs under the community header. GL

[Bront]

There's a few problems with mediums.

1) Many of the mediums we have are slower in general (Cent, Hunchie, Trebs, and BJs, none are particularly fast outside of a few variants, and in many cases are slow for their size). This means many of them are slow in game, which is problematic given...

2) Pinpoint damage and player accuracy. Damage doesn't spread like in TT, so it tends to be grouped in your torso, or wherever the enemy is aiming. This wears on the lighter mechs more than the heavier mechs who can pile on more armor easier. It also really hurts the Hunchie, as folks can peal off the hunch easily.

3) The heat system favors ballistic weapons, and it's hard to mount the larger ones or lots of the smaller ones on most medium mechs. Medium mechs have trouble mounting weapons and enough heat sinks to deal with them.

So, in general, medium mechs tend to be underarmed, underarmored, and slow. And that's ignoring any potential size or hit box issues.

That said, they can be fun. The Cicada is basically an oversized light, and the Shadowhawk fits better into your idea of mobile and well armed, and some folks enjoy the Cent, BJ, Hunchie, or Kintaro. I think folks are enjoying the Griffin and Wolverine as well.

Edited by Bront, 23 January 2014 - 11:09 AM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

A medium mech can get mowed down pretty quick. However, you said you only have one. That means you don't have all the pilot skills unlocked which makes a world of difference on any mech. Especially since your basic efficiencies get doubled after you unlock all the elite skills.
Secondly, mediums are better suited to playing support roles and in general, don't look like a threatening target. Wait a little until the enemy have picked their targets (your bigger teammates) then come up and support them and zoom around shooting stuff. If there is a victor and your hunchie, they're gonna want to take out the Victor first.

[DEMAX51]

Also, keep in mind that until you have unlocked all of a 'Mech's bonuses in the Basic and Elite skill trees, it's not operating at its maximum potential. Finishing the 4 Elites gives you double bonuses for the 8 Basic skills, and that's a huge improvement.

But you aren't incorrect, Mediums are generally regarded as inferior to pretty much everything else (with the exception of the Shadowhawk, which is considered to be a pretty good 'Mech, even in the competitive scene).

Some people expect weight limits for grouped players & teams (which are supposedly going to be added in the near future) will help Mediums become more common/viable, but I'm not really sure it'll help.

Edited by DEMAX51, 23 January 2014 - 01:21 PM.

[Deathsani]

To die, a lot. Don't feel discouraged by being knocked out in the fight so quickly. Eventually you will know how to present yourself correctly so as to maximize your damage output while minimizing the shots directed at you.

[Zenki Style]

I think with a medium alot of it boils down to piloting skills, I absolutely love my cent for example,I've even had a few 500+ damage matches. Take advanatge of being mobile and always aim center torso. thats what i go by with a medium. I also prefer packing longer range weapons so i can pick at the enemy at a safer distance for example my centurions loadout is two large lasers and two medium lasers. I choose my shots carefully and only push when the heavier units push. Same thing going with my shadow hawk, 1 er ppc and a ac10, great for supporting heavier units and really makes people duck after they get hit by both allowing heavier units a chance to push forward.

I honestly think mediums are plenty well covered with armor weapons and speed,and it just a mere matter of playing smart and not getting in the sights of half the enemy team,even an atlas would melt under that pressure

[Frogfire]

I find with most mechs it is a question of finding a layout and playstyle that fits the mech. In your case, I think the 6ML is the problem. Here is why.

For the 6 lasers to do their work, you have to keep them on your target for a second. That means of you have to stand still, or at least move in a predictable pattern - giving the enemy a chance to fire back. Since you lack the armor to take their incoming fire, you have to duck out before they do.
Some of this you can alleviate by moving as close range support to your teams choice targets. If nobody is shooting back, then those 6MLs do good damage.

But you also have a few other choices. You could try fitting some pulse lasers instead, allowing you to deliver damage faster. Or you could fit a couple of large lasers, with small and medium for backup so you can engage at longer ranges. PPCs might also work, but their weight and heat is troublesome for a medium.

I love my medium mechs, but they have been some of the hardest to find the right build for. My advice is to keep tweaking and trying, until you find what works.

[Auton]

Also it is the way you play. Your Medium mechs should have fast engines and your goal is to move to the sides of enemies and while the heavy draws the fire you can pinpoint damage on the enemy. I LOVE my centurions and they can do a lot of damage to the enemy and still get away. Here is how I use them:

CN9-A: 3 LRM5s, AC5, 2 Med Laser, Speed 80KPH (STD 250), Sensor Range Increase Module. This mech stays back and once enemy gets to be about 300 meters away unload with LRMs. You can then use the AC5 to snipe enemies when you have a clear shot or when they are too close to use LRMs. When you shoot LRMs closer it is harder for them to get away or dodge the missiles (learn that after trial and error)

CN9-AL: 2 ER Large Laser, 2 Med Laser, AMS, Speed 97KPH (STD 275). This mech slices off components. You will not be able to stand up and blast but use your speed to get to a spot and slice off arms and legs of heavies. Heavies like to have no armor in legs so you can leg them quickly before they see you. Also Lasers do not shake the screen of the enemy so you can get in a few shots in before they will notice you. When they see you use your speed to get away and set up again to snipe.

CN9-D: LBX-10, 2 SRM2 Streak, 2 Medium Lasers, 110KPH, BAP, Sensor Range Increase and 360 Modules. This is a light hunter. You can run and keep up with lights while using your LBX and Streaks to just unload on them. I have also used this mech like a light to run behind the heavy enemies and blast them with LBX, Med in the back quickly taking them down. Only negative on it is the XL engine. Keep running and never slow down.

Overall you need to stick with others to really make your mech shine. They also help you a lot with how to pinpoint damage on mechs so you can dismantle them quickly.

[Deathsani]

My most successful strategy with the 4p is to be careful picking targets. Don't aim CT unless it is yellow, pick off parts on bigger mechs and don't fire more than one laser at a time with light mechs.

If you keep a constant, steady rate of fire you can aim well at weakened structures. You can also fire your lasers in "pairs" using chainfired lasers in two groups. Don't just aim for the CT, that garbage works with the lazy heavies and assaults but you don't have the fire power to trifle with COD torso shots.

[AaronWolf]

Deathsani, on 23 January 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

My most successful strategy with the 4p is to be careful picking targets. Don't aim CT unless it is yellow, pick off parts on bigger mechs and don't fire more than one laser at a time with light mechs.

If you keep a constant, steady rate of fire you can aim well at weakened structures. You can also fire your lasers in "pairs" using chainfired lasers in two groups. Don't just aim for the CT, that garbage works with the lazy heavies and assaults but you don't have the fire power to trifle with COD torso shots.

To be honest, I love running the Knife-Fighter one from this thread: http://mwomercs.com/...a-few-thoughts/


Its so very much fun.

[IraqiWalker]

OP, are you being mindful of ghost heat on your Hunchie?

Also, most people under-estimate medium mechs. Two of my company pilots swear by the hunchie, one uses a 4SP the other uses a 4P. They average 500-600 damage a game. Of course they have the hunchies mastered, so their performance is phoenomenal.

This is a 4P build that I would recommend for you. Each variation on it has it's virtues.

1-HBK-4P Zapper
Make sure the 6MLs in the side torso are set in their own group. They can fire on their own without generating ghost heat.
This build is also the regular one for the 4P also known as the Old Standby. When you get your elites done you should be moving faster and turning better. That will allow you to do some crazy maneuvers while holding your aim down.

2-HBK-4P Party gurrl
This one is my favorite because it doesn't overheat as easily, and can deal crazy amounts of DPS. You need to stick close to your target and learn to throttle control so you stay in their shadow. You will also be able to fire your shots almost non-stop.

The main tactic for the HBK-4P is to hide behind a bigger mech, then pop up and just wreck things. It's better to tag team with a bigger mech and use them as a distraction.

You can also drop the laser in the head for both variants to get a bigger engine.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 23 January 2014 - 12:05 PM.

[Revorn]

Play smart, choose weapons wise, and have some Luck. Mediums are realy not easy to let em shine.

Much good advice in here, so read it carefully, Using Longrangeweapons, or attack iwth the short range at the rigth Moment. U can do it. Dont give up.

[Dawnstealer]

The 55 tonners, especially a few of the Wolverines and Shadowhawk, are a blast to pilot. You have to remember that you don't have the armor of an assault, or the maneuverability of a light, but with that in mind? Tons of fun.

I usually build mine out as dedicated Light-Hunters, so focus on a big engine and Streaks. They also make effective brawlers in the right situations.

Edited by Dawnstealer, 23 January 2014 - 12:16 PM.

[jper4]

the 4P will generally run into heat issues so your best bet is to find a heavy/assault, wait for it to get the attention of the target THEN blast him in the back.(him being the enemy of course). and what others said about getting though basic and elite trees will really help. i know when i first get a new mech i get slaughted while unlocking basics (and finding builds i like as well) but then once i'm done they become more useful.

mediums are pretty much jack of all trades, they can do a little bit of everything but aren't really the best at anything (barring certain varients as light hunters as the main example i can think of right now). also you have to be patent sicne mediums going first= dead medium, so you need to force yourself to wait a few minutes for all the snipers and lrm boats to do their thing then start cycling through targets til you find something beat up and go for it. i know i've had matched i had to wait til nearly 5 minutes into them before an openning shows up and i can still finish in the top half of damage at the end.

or just stick with the big mech- works for any medium.

[Koniving]

A few things.

Mott, on 23 January 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

Hey all

Still learning, every time i enter a skirmish. And one thing I continually learn is that my favourite mech class - mediums - currently seem to be quite outclassed by every other class in MWO.

Many users obtain a medium thinking it's going to be a great balance of a smaller profile than heavies, faster than any heavies/assaults, and better armored and armed than a light.

At this point, I must say it depends on the medium. A Cicada for example, is basically 5 tons more than the common lights, but a fair bit larger with particularly vulnerable legs. Yet, a Blackjack is a 45 tonner with some immense firepower and strength but quite light on armor; it's very short size and narrow body making it survivable. Hunchbacks -- interestingly enough -- got slightly larger. They used to be barely larger than blackjacks, but recent I was walking behind an Awesome and noticed my Hunchback was nearly as tall as it. o.o; The actually unrealistically small size of the Hunchback used to be its big advantage over the properly sized Centurion (I say too small and properly sized because the pilot model cannot fit in the "real" cockpit space of the Hunchback head while it can fit in the larger Centurion).

But back on topic, the Hunchback's greater strength comes in being able to hit hard and -- currently -- the incredible twist range of the two ballistic versions. The 4G can almost shoot backwards with the main cannon, and both the 4G and 4H can shoot directly backwards using their arms. Something the still-larger Centurion cannot do. Meanwhile the Centurions benefit from a body structure that can withstand an incredible amount of damage due to oversized 'ghost' arm hitboxes that reduce damage by 50%, and when the side torsos are lost they too reduce damage by another 50% (leading up to a 75% damage reduction; allowing it to withstand more abuse than even an Atlas). This comes at the cost of incredibly low-potential yield for weapons.

Then you have the 55 tonners; these are generally more effective than the Heavy 60 tonners. Kintaro, though missile heavy, benefits from being able to shoot beyond directly beyond itself allowing it to fight and run at the same time. Shadowhawk, a powerful walking cannon, suffers immensely from inability to twist compared to a Hunchback but makes up for it with a large number of missile launchers and a decent arm range (allowing it to get locks on targets pretty well). The Wolverine is clearly a heavy brawling platform with lots of vertical flexibility in its aim; if there ever were such a thing as a leaping brawler the Wolverine is the mech to bring. And then the Griffin, with its unparalleled visibility and fantastic horizontal arm twist and great arm speed there's not a target in the world that has a chance of escaping its missile locks. Not to mention the ability to lock targets 85 degrees left or right without even twisting the torso a millimeter can mean some pretty awesome corner shots and 'round the building shots.

The problem they all have, though, is how easy they are killed by pinpoint alpha strikes; a problem that plagues this game and its high use of single hit full damage weapons. This mechwarrior is the only one to have so many one-shot-wonder weapons I've seen (I haven't played MW4). If the autocannons worked how they sounded in mechwarrior 3 (multi-shot burst-fire) or how they were in mechwarrior 2 (AC/20 = 20 shots, AC/10 = 10 shots) or how they are in lore (Whirlwind AC/5, 3 shot. Crusher Super Heavy Cannon, 10 shot AC/20. Chemjet Gun, 4 shot AC/20. Atlas's Deathgiver AC/20, 15 shot. Hunchback 4G's Tomo--that's hard to spell--AC/20 is a 5 shot. The Blackjack AC/2, fully automatic (but damage-wise took 10 shots to do 2 damage). With any of those, then it'd be a very different story. Mediums would be so much more survivable.

Mott, on 23 January 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

The reality seems quite different. I have just one medium so far... HBK-4P and have been quite underwhelmed with it's firepower (i have 6 mlas) and it's armor (i've only cheated a little on the legs and rear RT, everywhere else has great armor). It gets shredded every game and i rarely get more than 200 damage, even if i survive till the end. It moves pretty good at 80kph and i've squeezed as many dhs on it as i can. But it still overheats too easily (chain firing) and crumples under heavy fire.

Hunchback 4P. Ditch the medium lasers. That's your main problem. Try 9 small pulse lasers and make sure you have at least 14 DHS. More if possible. Either fire them all at once for a powerful 30.6 damage alpha strike or chainfire them for a never-ending "Machine gun laser" of death. You'll find it a lot more devastating then. Medium lasers require too much time to focus for too little yield and too much heat.

Mott, on 23 January 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

I've noticed that the scaling seems a little off. HBKs "look" larger in-game than many heavies (dragon, jager & 'pult) and instantly draws a lot of fire on the field for this reason.

Mentioned earlier; Hunchback got brought in line with the scale of other mediums. Mediums are typically as tall as heavies but skinnier in some fashion. (This is actually pretty common in lore.)

Mott, on 23 January 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

And many of these issues don't seem isolated to the HBK or me specifically. I really enjoy the Cataphracts. I absolutely tear through any HBK, Kintaro, Centurion, Cicada or Trebuchet i face with my 4x AC5s or paired 2x PPC + 2x AC5s. If they stand up to 10 or 12 volleys, I'm surprised. And usually by the end of that exchange i still have 85%+ of my phract's armor remaining.

This shouldn't be the case. Mediums should be hardier than that. Harder to hit than that. And capable of dealing a little more damage than that.

Technically, a Hunchback stands up to the damage that an Atlas takes in tabletop. Double armor, double internals. I mentioned the issue; pinpoint damage and too many pinpoint weapons.

Mott, on 23 January 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

So, after all that, I guess my question is... can we expect better mediums? Either in the form of some tweaks to existing chassis, or, will we get some lethal new chassis in the not too distant future like the Bushwacker?

Chassis, yes. Better mediums? They already got enhanced quite bit. The issue isn't really with mediums. It's a combination of the weapons (lots of easy pinpoint instant-damage) and the thresholds (bare minimum on a 10 DHS 250 engine mech is 50 til shutdown versus tabletop's 30 with 2 times cooling. Furthermore, master it and the exact same build will have 60 threshold; that's one extra PPC fired at the same time + 15% more cooling. It's only if you have less than a 250 engine or if you have more than 10 DHS that you get the '1.4' double heatsink and it only applies to any DHS that you have to manually drag and drop yourself).

Mechwarrior 3, 3 PPCs (30 heat) would shut you down instantly. On MWO it was possible to fire 6 ER PPCs at 15 heat and just keep right on walking like nothing happened. We're able to fire too much, too fast, and it's all instant maximum damage. You don't see that problem so much with lights because hit detection isn't all that great against them, otherwise they'd be the worst chassis to use.

Sadly no matter how hard some of us try to push for a fix to either removing rising thresholds (thus reducing or completely removing the 'alpha strike mentality' we have), reinstating delayed convergence (shots miss if you aren't carefully lining them up for more than 1 second), removing armlock (another leading cause to pinpoint issues) or converting ACs to multi-shot DPS weapons as opposed to alpha-strike weapons, PGI just doesn't seem interested in them.

Edited by Koniving, 23 January 2014 - 12:24 PM.

[SniperCon]

Mediums which can mount 3+ streak SRMs and 300+ XL engines make very strong light hunters, and can often handily defeat 2-3 lights at once. Kintaros and Shadowhawks are best at this.

Mediums have the best torso twist ranges and speeds in the game. To be a successful medium pilot it is critical to practice shielding and understand how to abuse high ground.

[Deathsani]

That build is way too hot for me, I much prefer my large laser opposite to the hunch with a medium in the head. This leaves the left arm empty, less of a loss after the hunch is gone.

The more you plan for the hunch to drop the happier you will be.