511 replies to this topic

[Xtrekker]

Fut, on 29 January 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

Couldn't agree more.

You can't really improve yourself with something like this, if you're only ever competing against people who are equally or less skilled than you yourself.
It's quite important to get your *** kicked, hard, by somebody - it gives you an opportunity to learn.
Take the time to replay the match in your head. What did you do wrong? How did my opponent take advantage of this? How can I avoid this situation in the future? etc... These are all questions that must be asked, but they're all questions that can only be asked after you get stomped..

There's a reason why the term "school somebody" exists as a way to say that you utterly destroyed them.

And how exactly are those premades improving when 9/10 matches is a pugstomp?

Team vs team improves a team far more than target practice with pubbies. Pubbie vs team...well that's called a firing squad.

Edited by Xtrekker, 29 January 2014 - 12:11 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Xtrekker, on 29 January 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

And how exactly are those premades improving when 9/10 matches is a pugstomp?

Team vs team improves a team far more than target practice with pubbies. Pubbie vs team...well that's called a firing squad.

As been posted many times (though I don't know how true it is) IF you are facing a 4 man you are supposed to have a 4 man on our team as well. BUT MM can disregard this if there are not enough players available to have a 4 man(ie placed 9 already)

[Tw1stedMonkey]

Fut, on 29 January 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

Couldn't agree more.

You can't really improve yourself with something like this, if you're only ever competing against people who are equally or less skilled than you yourself.
It's quite important to get your *** kicked, hard, by somebody - it gives you an opportunity to learn.
Take the time to replay the match in your head. What did you do wrong? How did my opponent take advantage of this? How can I avoid this situation in the future? etc... These are all questions that must be asked, but they're all questions that can only be asked after you get stomped..

There's a reason why the term "school somebody" exists as a way to say that you utterly destroyed them.

It is a game... I don't play games to get better at them, I play them to have fun. My skill in the game is only relevant in that doing better is typically more fun. I don't understand why people care about getting better, it's just a game, as long as you have fun who cares how good you are or how much you improve?

Also "stomps" don't benefit anyone in a PUG. It doesn't matter how many times you see your unorganized teammates get picked off one-by-one leaving you and the teammates with better battlefield awareness to get destroyed by numbers or surrounded and rained fire upon by a clearly better synergized and organized force, the only "solution" is the obvious one and that is to do what they did and find an organized group. Note that i said stomps: ie. 12-(0-2) losses with multiple players under 100 damage.

I play games because they are fun and you don't have to wait around for other people you know in order to play them. You just turn it on and go. Yes it is a team game but you don't and shouldn't need organized groups to have fun in this game. If you create a queue for casual and PUG players (1-2 players per groups) then they will be more likely to stay and continue playing the game and keeping it alive. If you don't try to offer that then they will get fed up and go do something else and you still lose a significant amount of players from the regular queue. You will lose those players from your queue either way, might as well keep them giving money to the developers of the game.

[Jon Gotham]

wanderer, on 25 January 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

How do you consider 0-12 pugstomps as improving the PUG's skill at anything except becoming a better target to your premades?

MWO skill levels only improve in team play. PUGs are not team play. Ergo, take the premade out of the PUG. If there aren't enough premades to allow for steady play, it's because MWO has been allowed to degenerate into a lousy game, and a -huge- part of that is the abominable matchmaker and pug-stomping.

Bonus: You may find to your horror that people PREFER to PUG, because they don't want to be l33t Mechwarriors, they just want to run around blowing up giant stompy robots. Or, you may find that we get easier MM's done when you're looking for 6 groups of 4 people vs. random ELO jibber-jabber that still gets us 11-man drops even in the pits of PUG ELO Hell.

So in my case, my unit can't get 12 mans going regularly...so we end up in 4 mans. We log on to play this game as a bunch of mates. We don't bring meta mechs or run 4 assault lances. Just teams of 4 mates trying to enjoy the game
So, what you are saying is because we care enough to team up together, and have bothered to make some friends in the game we should be punished?
The last time we got put against other premades late night was Lords and friends, I have NEVER seen so much money thrown at us via airstrike/Arty spam. They spent over 200k just to try to hit my cicada....not a fun game. 12 mans are just a rampant meta fest these days-no fun at all.
So we are left dropping as small 4 mans in pug matches-which you want to take from us, because those of us who have bothered to make the smallest of time investments have an "advantage" over those who just want to log on and shoot big robots. If you want to do that log on and never think thing-maybe team oriented games are not the best thing to be playing....

[Joseph Mallan]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 29 January 2014 - 11:16 PM, said:

It is a game... I don't play games to get better at them, I play them to have fun. My skill in the game is only relevant in that doing better is typically more fun. I don't understand why people care about getting better, it's just a game, as long as you have fun who cares how good you are or how much you improve?

Also "stomps" don't benefit anyone in a PUG. It doesn't matter how many times you see your unorganized teammates get picked off one-by-one leaving you and the teammates with better battlefield awareness to get destroyed by numbers or surrounded and rained fire upon by a clearly better synergized and organized force, the only "solution" is the obvious one and that is to do what they did and find an organized group. Note that i said stomps: ie. 12-(0-2) losses with multiple players under 100 damage.

I play games because they are fun and you don't have to wait around for other people you know in order to play them. You just turn it on and go. Yes it is a team game but you don't and shouldn't need organized groups to have fun in this game. If you create a queue for casual and PUG players (1-2 players per groups) then they will be more likely to stay and continue playing the game and keeping it alive. If you don't try to offer that then they will get fed up and go do something else and you still lose a significant amount of players from the regular queue. You will lose those players from your queue either way, might as well keep them giving money to the developers of the game.

I used to play baseball for fun. When I first started playing I sucked. But I kept playing (thus practicing) . I got pretty good, was a power hitter, fleet footed fielder solid glove work. If I had the kind of fortitude some gamers have, I'd have quit after the first first time I stuck out. Rarely is someone good at something the instant they start. I've been playing SWTOR since Christmas... I am still learning things that improve my game!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 30 January 2014 - 04:28 AM.

[Galenit]

kamiko kross, on 30 January 2014 - 02:40 AM, said:

So, what you are saying is because we care enough to team up together, and have bothered to make some friends in the game we should be punished?
12 mans are just a rampant meta fest these days-no fun at all.
So we are left dropping as small 4 mans in pug matches,,,

Why should the 12 mans be punished for investing more time then you?

If you dont want to play against the 12 mans, why should the lonewolfs play against you?


I still think best would be seperated games for 12mans, premades and lonewolfs, with an option to play in the "bigger games". If you want, you can play as lonewolf in the 12 mans and premades and the premades can play in the 12 mans.
OR
All play together, but you get an ELO increase for every groupmember for the matchmaker.
This way, some of the advantages of the premades will be countered by matching them against higher smaller groups or high lonewolfs.


Example (with example numbers!):
For every groupmember you get 5% eloincrease
Every member of a 4 man will have an elo for the matchmaker thats 20% higher than its normal elo.
Every member of a 12 man will have an elo for the matchmaker thats 60% above their normal elo.

Examplematch:

Team Blue:
12 man, 1000 elo each (its an example i use the 1000 for easy math, i know its more!)
For the matchmaker they will count as 1600 elo.
TeamElo 19200

Team Red:
6 man with 1200 elo each, for the matchmaker they count as 1560 elo
4 man with 1400 elo each, for the matchmaker they count as 1680 elo
2 lonewolfs with 1560 elo
TeamElo 19200

Edited by Galenit, 30 January 2014 - 05:54 AM.

[Iskareot]

kamiko kross, on 30 January 2014 - 02:40 AM, said:

So in my case, my unit can't get 12 mans going regularly...so we end up in 4 mans. We log on to play this game as a bunch of mates. We don't bring meta mechs or run 4 assault lances. Just teams of 4 mates trying to enjoy the game
So, what you are saying is because we care enough to team up together, and have bothered to make some friends in the game we should be punished?
The last time we got put against other premades late night was Lords and friends, I have NEVER seen so much money thrown at us via airstrike/Arty spam. They spent over 200k just to try to hit my cicada....not a fun game. 12 mans are just a rampant meta fest these days-no fun at all.
So we are left dropping as small 4 mans in pug matches-which you want to take from us, because those of us who have bothered to make the smallest of time investments have an "advantage" over those who just want to log on and shoot big robots. If you want to do that log on and never think thing-maybe team oriented games are not the best thing to be playing....

There it is.....................................

I was hoping to see more of the "I am being punished" comments - sure they happened here but in different ways.

Now to this comment... NO you should not be punished for being in a 4 man group, in fact I love them and they are sure fun. HOWEVER.... with that being said you simply need to be matched or attempted to be matched against 3 -4 man teams and your team should have 3 -4 man teams as well. Your mind set and the mere fact you can talk and have a common goal makes you have a clear and (while fun) advantage over me in a drop if I am solo. SO, as to not punish you and as I clearly stated.. do NOT take away your fun. Nope, I want it to remain the same for you... Now, sure you will have to fight other 4 man teams only and not that {Dezgra} that is all alone running up a hill he cannot go up or the guy running in circles to see if he can stir up dust or the guy trying to jump jet on the same building for 4 mins BUT you will still have your 4 man group and your (common rough) goal.

So pretty much whats funny is the solo player right now feels punished because he does not have that choice on HOW to drop.

Make sense?

[Iskareot]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 January 2014 - 04:26 AM, said:

I used to play baseball for fun. When I first started playing I sucked. But I kept playing (thus practicing) . I got pretty good, was a power hitter, fleet footed fielder solid glove work. If I had the kind of fortitude some gamers have, I'd have quit after the first first time I stuck out. Rarely is someone good at something the instant they start. I've been playing SWTOR since Christmas... I am still learning things that improve my game!

And man am I glad this is a video game where the focus is not to win or lose but to have fun... ALSO for the concept that I expect to be given a fair shake at things as either a SOLO or Premade player. This is not the ARMY where we would say ... tough it out.. or my Military School where you would get your *** kicked just for looking at someone wrong and you would just be beat up and say "Deal with it".... No this is NOT what this is...

This is a game where you actually join it as a solo player, pay as a solo player and then are ENCOURAGED to join a team so you do not get rolled and or learn something. There is no forced game here... so then you have to ask .. why can't we choose the types of drops we want to do on what maps we want even.

Don't take anything away but give options. That's all...

[Joseph Mallan]

It makes sense from one perspective, but there are more than one way to look at this game.

There are players who want LRMs to be useless so they can brawl, opposed by those who love a good missile shower. Snipers vs Brawlers, Assaults vs Lights. There are polar opposites for every argument... Heck even Medium Mechs have their champions who defy the cries for improvement. How can a developer make everyone happy when everyone has a different idea what fun is? I am a 35+ year power gamer. I am a heavy damage throwing Tank since before Tanking was called a Meat Shield!

Frankly PGI needs to make everyone a little bit unhappy to make a happy medium!

[Iskareot]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 29 January 2014 - 11:16 PM, said:

It is a game... I don't play games to get better at them, I play them to have fun. My skill in the game is only relevant in that doing better is typically more fun. I don't understand why people care about getting better, it's just a game, as long as you have fun who cares how good you are or how much you improve?

Also "stomps" don't benefit anyone in a PUG. It doesn't matter how many times you see your unorganized teammates get picked off one-by-one leaving you and the teammates with better battlefield awareness to get destroyed by numbers or surrounded and rained fire upon by a clearly better synergized and organized force, the only "solution" is the obvious one and that is to do what they did and find an organized group. Note that i said stomps: ie. 12-(0-2) losses with multiple players under 100 damage.

I play games because they are fun and you don't have to wait around for other people you know in order to play them. You just turn it on and go. Yes it is a team game but you don't and shouldn't need organized groups to have fun in this game. If you create a queue for casual and PUG players (1-2 players per groups) then they will be more likely to stay and continue playing the game and keeping it alive. If you don't try to offer that then they will get fed up and go do something else and you still lose a significant amount of players from the regular queue. You will lose those players from your queue either way, might as well keep them giving money to the developers of the game.

Nice comments, logical. Go figure. I think to myself what is the difference between waiting a bit longer to load 6 -4 man teams to the now 2- or one 4 man teams? I think what would be ideal would be a (IF you cannot find people to group over anything else then GRAB or make it known to the solo player as the load that they are being qued into a premade match to fill a slot.

THEN give that solo player a 15% bonus to cb or something for being pulled into it. Because there is 4 and 2 man teams out there as we all know and sure I could see a slot needing to be filled. I think that is the only way to really do it in a fair manner - (something for being pulled in when you did not desire to).

Edited by Iskareot, 30 January 2014 - 07:08 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Iskareot, on 30 January 2014 - 06:56 AM, said:

And man am I glad this is a video game where the focus is not to win or lose but to have fun... ALSO for the concept that I expect to be given a fair shake at things as either a SOLO or Premade player. This is not the ARMY where we would say ... tough it out.. or my Military School where you would get your *** kicked just for looking at someone wrong and you would just be beat up and say "Deal with it".... No this is NOT what this is...

This is a game where you actually join it as a solo player, pay as a solo player and then are ENCOURAGED to join a team so you do not get rolled and or learn something. There is no forced game here... so then you have to ask .. why can't we choose the types of drops we want to do on what maps we want even.

Don't take anything away but give options. That's all...

Cause we are not playing a game yet Isk. It is a combat mechanics with bare bones of a system. We have what 6-7 Unnamed planets, I am Still dropping with FWL players instead of 100% FedCom. I have yet to battle a Falcon or a Wolf in Omnis. So I am in the deal with it crowd cause until we have a full functioning game with a changing battle front. Non of what we have done so far amounts to an ounce of "meaning". I have 2,568 wins... But what have I won? 1,790 losses but I still have everything I started with?

So until such a time as we are fighting over possession of Defiance MechWorks, none of what we are doing now means a dam thing!

[CyclonerM]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 January 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

Cause we are not playing a game yet Isk. It is a combat mechanics with bare bones of a system. We have what 6-7 Unnamed planets, I am Still dropping with FWL players instead of 100% FedCom. I have yet to battle a Falcon or a Wolf in Omnis. So I am in the deal with it crowd cause until we have a full functioning game with a changing battle front. Non of what we have done so far amounts to an ounce of "meaning". I have 2,568 wins... But what have I won? 1,790 losses but I still have everything I started with?

So until such a time as we are fighting over possession of Defiance MechWorks, none of what we are doing now means a dam thing!

Well done sir. +5 for this post.

Edited by CyclonerM, 30 January 2014 - 07:10 AM.

[Iskareot]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 January 2014 - 06:58 AM, said:

It makes sense from one perspective, but there are more than one way to look at this game.

There are players who want LRMs to be useless so they can brawl, opposed by those who love a good missile shower. Snipers vs Brawlers, Assaults vs Lights. There are polar opposites for every argument... Heck even Medium Mechs have their champions who defy the cries for improvement. How can a developer make everyone happy when everyone has a different idea what fun is? I am a 35+ year power gamer. I am a heavy damage throwing Tank since before Tanking was called a Meat Shield!

Frankly PGI needs to make everyone a little bit unhappy to make a happy medium!

This is NOT about that type of in-game balance. This is just flat out game design balance. --- i.e. Overall, drops... in a whole.

I see what you are saying and I do understand it I really do but the issue is much bigger then just that. It is on a grand scale of play overall. Now, here is my fear ... and I will admit this fear.. and it's not a good thing and or this is where this could blow up.

Solo ques could end up dominating the whole game... in fact, something tells me that 80% of the playerbase would que solo if they could. No joke... and I think the premade teamers fear this. In fact I could almost bet on it. They realize a lot of their fun is YES killing new people and or solo pugs wandering off. Say all you want... but I know because I have rolled premade and you look for those people. With that said... this changes the game style for some that are not wanting it. Also they fear it will be harder... That's right HARDER... I said. Now, sure maybe not... maybe all the teams out there are ready for the game to get harder for them - who knows but I can tell you the ones I have talked to said it would be more of a challenge and that some of them would actually que SOLO instead because of the difficulty.

That's the hidden fear part that could alter the game as a whole I would be afraid of. That people end up REALLY wanting that fair drop and with more balance to it then what ANYONE knew.

[Iskareot]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 January 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

Cause we are not playing a game yet Isk. It is a combat mechanics with bare bones of a system. We have what 6-7 Unnamed planets, I am Still dropping with FWL players instead of 100% FedCom. I have yet to battle a Falcon or a Wolf in Omnis. So I am in the deal with it crowd cause until we have a full functioning game with a changing battle front. Non of what we have done so far amounts to an ounce of "meaning". I have 2,568 wins... But what have I won? 1,790 losses but I still have everything I started with?

So until such a time as we are fighting over possession of Defiance MechWorks, none of what we are doing now means a dam thing!

Well sadly this is a whole other issue in it's own right. Honestly this is more towards, game design then game balance though. Sure I wish we had more of the real game in this... but I don't see it going so overboard it becomes a risk vs reward system. Too much issues with that in a game..... Permadeath, Perma loss of a item.. Oh yeah that does not work well in video games.... I know I was in those.. they went bad after a while. So in the end you need the base... at least show balance choice at the start then build on it. Last night I went up against a drop that we were so destroyed it was not funny.. .within about 90 seconds this thing was over. It was so imbalanced the other team was saying sorry and they had NO idea how this could be so bad. (They had three people score over 800 to give you an idea... we were lucky we had one guy with 400) the rest was wayyyyy ugly. I mean it was stupid and clear we had new people and trials and they were a good premade team... like really good.

I shrugged it off but then I just realized this is stupid. Why did that have to waste 8 mins of my time just to see and KNOW that it was over before it started. - All of that could be avoided too

[RG Notch]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 January 2014 - 06:58 AM, said:

It makes sense from one perspective, but there are more than one way to look at this game.

There are players who want LRMs to be useless so they can brawl, opposed by those who love a good missile shower. Snipers vs Brawlers, Assaults vs Lights. There are polar opposites for every argument... Heck even Medium Mechs have their champions who defy the cries for improvement. How can a developer make everyone happy when everyone has a different idea what fun is? I am a 35+ year power gamer. I am a heavy damage throwing Tank since before Tanking was called a Meat Shield!

Frankly PGI needs to make everyone a little bit unhappy to make a happy medium!

PGI is succeeding at making a lot of people unhappy, so there's that.

[Joseph Mallan]

RG Notch, on 30 January 2014 - 07:30 AM, said:

PGI is succeeding at making a lot of people unhappy, so there's that.

Yea... I know, but its the level of unhappiness. I'm a power gamer, have been or 35 years. I don' want feather dusters and pillow launcher. I want BFGs that deliver gut wrenching amounts of damage!

[The Basilisk]

I realy don't know what people are talking about.
We already have separated PuG and all premade Drops.
12 player pug with 2-4 single groups and 12 vs 12 premade only Drops.
The only issiue that is realy there is that even as new recrute you may be forced to fight an old veteran player if matchmaker balanced his group out of many low elo and 1 or two high elo player.
And this can make the impression there are large premade groups against non premade.
Espezialy if one of the veterans takes lead and the others are by chance skilled with morethen 3 functioning brain cells and do what they are said.

Other then this I realy see no problem with *premades*
A 4 man team is pretty worthless if the other 8 tinfigures are completely clueless what they are doing.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Fut, on 29 January 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

Couldn't agree more.

You can't really improve yourself with something like this, if you're only ever competing against people who are equally or less skilled than you yourself.
It's quite important to get your *** kicked, hard, by somebody - it gives you an opportunity to learn.
Take the time to replay the match in your head. What did you do wrong? How did my opponent take advantage of this? How can I avoid this situation in the future? etc... These are all questions that must be asked, but they're all questions that can only be asked after you get stomped..

There's a reason why the term "school somebody" exists as a way to say that you utterly destroyed them.

This is just silly. I get what you are saying, and I totally agree with the concept.

But you can play against good players who are by themselves and get your butt kicked. And learn from it.

What we have now is more like having a group of bullies beat you up.

That doesn't teach you anything, all it does is make you want to stay away from the bullies.

[Darklord]

The new player will always be at a disadvantage in this game, because their lack of knowledge of the game mechanics.

What we did at the VWE/FASA Battletech Centers was first we show the new players a video of the how the game works.
Then we went over the controls with them to make sure they had a basic understanding of playing.
We then watched over them and help them out as they played.

The same thing could be done here if we had a few tools to help us out.

A good basic training video on the basics that the new players is sent to watch first before they push the launch button.
Make the training grounds open to more than just 1 player maybe 2-8 just for training.Players that are recruiting or just volunteer their time then could work with them in a more relaxed atmosphere and not be chucked into the deep end.
At the same time they can be introduced to team-speak and told the plus side of using it if they so choose.

New players staying is a must if this game is to survive.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 30 January 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

This is just silly. I get what you are saying, and I totally agree with the concept.

But you can play against good players who are by themselves and get your butt kicked. And learn from it.

What we have now is more like having a group of bullies beat you up.

That doesn't teach you anything, all it does is make you want to stay away from the bullies.

I know what you are saying, but I get awestruck when I see a good 4man fighting in formation picking a target and eliminating it. It makes me want to drop with my fellow Lawmen, but most are off on Tatooine.