511 replies to this topic

[Dirus Nigh]

The best solution is to give all players access to the same tools in game. The on tool that premades have over pug groups is voice coms. Implement a reliable voice communication system that can be used both in and out of matches will remove a huge barrier to coordination. At this point the only thing standing in a pug groups way is player behavior.

When the battlefield series had intigrated voice pick up teams did very well against groups of players on their home servers. All it took was the willingness to talk to each other and cooperate. This also helped create a foundation for playing with people you know. Players would meat people in game, talk to each other then group up. They would then seek each other out in game. In MWO all a player has to do is toss in a friend invite, then group together. After a while they would have experience playing with each other.

This already happens on TS3 servers such as NGNG's, or Comstar NA. However there are some big hoops to jump through. A player has to know they exist. They have to find the information about them, connect and waite around untill some one wants to group. Integrating voice coms in MWO cuts out all of that.

Merc units can still use their TS3 if they chose to.

Edited by Dirus Nigh, 05 February 2014 - 06:36 AM.

[Iskareot]

The one element you cannot give is the concept of team work and the goal being the same in a group. You cannot tell that 12 year old that just got the game downloaded to install coms and do what we are all doing... vs you can get 4 guys together and make the premade, converge, use a strat and discuss a plan. You cannot (force) ***** the pug group to do this. That element of basic balance cannot be done. PERIOD.

Now, unless you make premades with the intent to do nothing BUT BAD THINGS on purpose then really you will and have the advantage already. You are not all driving in circles, you are all NOT trying to drive up a mountain you cannot, YOU ARE NOT shooting each other and or doing your own thing when we need your fire power somewhere else.

Unless you are in a premade to do nothing but ruin it, which in that case I think your clan would boot you. (AGAIN basing this on all things being equal).

You can give coms, give hot keys.. but what you cannot give is the teams goals...and concept. AND THAT is something that cannot or will not happen.

Now, give separate ques and see what happens... try it out. See what people really want... do not assume. Then lets have this discussion again later.

[Gruinhardt]

Iskareot, on 05 February 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

Now, give separate ques and see what happens... try it out. See what people really want... do not assume. Then lets have this discussion again later.

I will admit, I have wanted a solo only queue for months. Most of my matches are played solo. The ELO would have to match 24 players with equal scores. Not an average of say 2 elite and 10 noobs against 12 average players. 24 players of equal ELO would be fun. Will it happen, doubt it. If MWO had a large enough player base, we would already have it.

Iskareot, on 05 February 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

The one element you cannot give is the concept of team work and the goal being the same in a group. You cannot tell that 12 year old that just got the game downloaded to install coms and do what we are all doing... vs you can get 4 guys together and make the premade, converge, use a strat and discuss a plan. You cannot (force) ***** the pug group to do this. That element of basic balance cannot be done. PERIOD.

This I disagree with. Others and myself have worked with new players of all ages. If someone is patient and willing to listen (all ages), they have a chance. But this can only be accomplished in a group, over a period of several matches. It cannot be done in a 15 minute match.

Iskareot, on 05 February 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

You cannot (force) ***** the pug group to do this.

Not everyone in a pug group wants to be a pug. They are not aware they have options. There are merc corps, factions, clans willing to take time to help. PGI needs to step up, better tutorails, training grounds, or a homepage link to groups willing to train.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 04 February 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

You can change it around any way you want. Look in a mirror yourself.

There are a small number of posters who see fit to think they are forum police and can trash any thread at will because its outside their view of the forums.

No one is accusing me of bullying here but I see several complaints daily about you and roadbeer and some others less frequently.

You cannot even approach that because you know how others feel about your antics and finding fault in your actions is unacceptable.

Just grow up the bunch of you. Your not mods and you have no say above anyone else logged on here. What is posted and how its posted is none of your business. You have a report button so use it instead of fouling any thread you don't like.

You are defending your ideals, I am defending mine. When I see a PUG/Pre Made post I chime in, much as you chime in when you see a Pre made/PUG post. Thus you support your belief I support mine and let the viewers decide which position they support. If I was doing something that was wrong, the MODs would remove my post. As they have a few(many) time that I know of.

Yes I have a report button, but as all I see is a different opinion than my own, and I am mature enough to accept that they do exist. I let you say your piece, I say my piece, and when we are in agreement I like your posts when I don't I say why. All without saying things like "Just grow up"

Are you a MOD? Cause if someone was lodging a complain about me bullying only MODs and the offended would know, I would think. I have also never been addressed by MODs for being a bully or acting in a bullying fashion. And as prolific as I am, IF I were bullying I would have been taken aside and reprimanded.

So if you will continue to push PUG I will counter with PUG/pre made as I do play as both. An i will let the forum decide for themselves which they prefer.

Excellent posts Isk and Gruin! Both sides represented well!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 05 February 2014 - 10:12 AM.

[Dirus Nigh]

Iskareot, on 05 February 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

The one element you cannot give is the concept of team work and the goal being the same in a group. You cannot tell that 12 year old that just got the game downloaded to install coms and do what we are all doing... vs you can get 4 guys together and make the premade, converge, use a strat and discuss a plan. You cannot (force) ***** the pug group to do this. That element of basic balance cannot be done. PERIOD.

Now, unless you make premades with the intent to do nothing BUT BAD THINGS on purpose then really you will and have the advantage already. You are not all driving in circles, you are all NOT trying to drive up a mountain you cannot, YOU ARE NOT shooting each other and or doing your own thing when we need your fire power somewhere else.

Unless you are in a premade to do nothing but ruin it, which in that case I think your clan would boot you. (AGAIN basing this on all things being equal).

You can give coms, give hot keys.. but what you cannot give is the teams goals...and concept. AND THAT is something that cannot or will not happen.

Now, give separate ques and see what happens... try it out. See what people really want... do not assume. Then lets have this discussion again later.

As I've said in my post the one obstacle that PGI cannot remove is player behavior. Whether MWO has voice comes or just text chat, its up to the players to be open to suggestions and working together. It is also best if players be respectful when speaking to each other. I have failed this many times when I get frustrated. When a player tries to communicate a course of action it is best to be patient, clear, and with courtesy.

Now give the players integrated voice and see what happens. Try it out. see what people really want. Do not assume.

Edited by Dirus Nigh, 05 February 2014 - 10:20 AM.

[Gruinhardt]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 February 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

Excellent posts Isk and Gruin! Both sides represented well!

Isk is right about the solo queue, I would like to see it too. I would also like to see a cadet v cadet queue. Many others want a trial v trial, stock v stock, 4v4, or 8v8. No one is wrong for wanting these. The problem is numbers. Do we have a large enough player base to support one or all of these queues? Only PGI knows.

I would really like to have a 2 person group drop in training grounds. With the ability of going 1v1 and exiting your mech to spectate the other pilot.

Dirus Nigh, on 05 February 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

As I've said in my post the one obstacle that PGI cannot remove is player behavior. Whether MWO has voice comes or just text chat, its up to the players to be open to suggestions and working together. It is also best if players be respectful when speaking to each other. I have failed this many times when I get frustrated. When a player tries to communicate a course of action it is best to be patient, clear, and with courtesy.

Now give the players integrated voice and see what happens. Try it out. see what people really want. Do not assume.

Only if it has a mute button.

[Flying Blind]

All through closed beta we posted thread after thread asking for voice comms in game. Always the devs just said "meh anyone who wants to talk to their team already uses a third party client to do so, there's no point in us doing any work to put voice chat in game."
Every merc corp out there actively looks for people who fit their style to join them and there are so many of us that unless you are playing in the elo basement there are very few games that don't have a premade team. Almost every game I play has at least one premade 3 or 4 man on each side. Synch dropped 12 man's are rare and I think I have only ever seen a synch 12 once maybe and it was paired against a synched 8 plus a 4man on separate comms. Premade teams are most often paired with lone-wolves of lower elo to average out the team's overall elo. This makes it so the 4 man premade has to carry the whole team or lose. This leads premade 4 man teams to bring strong meta mechs and fight hard but many times they cannot swing the fight as 4 of 12 just doesn't carry enough weight.

You really think premade are making this game bad? Just wait until the launch module in April when we get weight limits and 12 man premade come back into the pug queue. Hydrate well or your tears may kill you.

Edited by Flying Blind, 05 February 2014 - 08:46 PM.

[Roadbeer]

Flying Blind, on 05 February 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:

All through closed beta we posted threa after thread asking for voice comms in game. Always the devs just said "meh anyone who wants to talk to their team already uses a third party client to do so, there's no point in us doing any work to put voice chat in game."
Every merc corp out there actively looks for people who fit their style to join them and there are so many of us that unless you are playing in the elo basement there are very few games that don't have a premade team. Almost every game I play has at least one premade 3 or 4 man on each side. Synch dropped man's are rare and I think I have only ever seen a synch 12 once maybe and it was paired against a synched 8 plus a 4man on sepperate comms. Premade teams are most often paired with werewolves of lower elo to average out the team's overall elo. This makes it so the 4 man premade has to carry the whole team or lose. This leads premade 4 man teams to bring strong meta mechs and fight hard but many times they cannot swing the fight as 4 of 12 just doesn't carry enough weight.

You really think premade are making this game bad? Just wait until the launch module in April when we get weight limits and 12 man premade come back into the pug queue. Hydrate well or your tears may kill you.

We need a way to like something more than once...

so until then, you get a QFT

[Mudhutwarrior]

Flying Blind, on 05 February 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:

All through closed beta we posted thread after thread asking for voice comms in game. Always the devs just said "meh anyone who wants to talk to their team already uses a third party client to do so, there's no point in us doing any work to put voice chat in game."
Every merc corp out there actively looks for people who fit their style to join them and there are so many of us that unless you are playing in the elo basement there are very few games that don't have a premade team. Almost every game I play has at least one premade 3 or 4 man on each side. Synch dropped 12 man's are rare and I think I have only ever seen a synch 12 once maybe and it was paired against a synched 8 plus a 4man on separate comms. Premade teams are most often paired with lone-wolves of lower elo to average out the team's overall elo. This makes it so the 4 man premade has to carry the whole team or lose. This leads premade 4 man teams to bring strong meta mechs and fight hard but many times they cannot swing the fight as 4 of 12 just doesn't carry enough weight.

You really think premade are making this game bad? Just wait until the launch module in April when we get weight limits and 12 man premade come back into the pug queue. Hydrate well or your tears may kill you.

Its not premades making the game bad but the idea that pugs are just fill for matches. Of course several on the wrecking crew want you to believe we think "premades are evil" but that is stupid like "guns are evil." Its the way some premades operate that is the problem in game and we pugs refer to them as stompers. While our mission is to learn and carry the fight their sole objective is to wipe out the other team as quickly as possible with minimal effort. Not saying that is a bed premise and in real combat that is the goal. Saying that in a game this approach may be fine when all parties are equal but in this case they are not and it becomes a slaughter for the sake of slaughter. Coming into a match knowing a number of other mechs are at a distinct disadvantage is not fair play by any stretch.
Either give us the tools to bring us up to level or split us up. Pretty simple concept.
Please dont buy into the "evil premade" bull that only used to distract and distort.

Edited by Mudhutwarrior, 06 February 2014 - 04:50 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gruinhardt, on 05 February 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

Isk is right about the solo queue, I would like to see it too. I would also like to see a cadet v cadet queue. Many others want a trial v trial, stock v stock, 4v4, or 8v8. No one is wrong for wanting these. The problem is numbers. Do we have a large enough player base to support one or all of these queues? Only PGI knows.

I would really like to have a 2 person group drop in training grounds. With the ability of going 1v1 and exiting your mech to spectate the other pilot.

Only if it has a mute button.

All of which sound like great ideas to try. I don't know how they would implement it, I don't do game/web design for a living or a hobby. I would think that there would be some sort of trade off required. Now whether that trade ff is worth it or not... I would be willing to see.

[Roadbeer]

Mudhutwarrior, on 06 February 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

Its not premades making the game bad but the idea that pugs are just fill for matches.

Ok, explain to me what the role is of a solo Lone Wolf mercenary, in a galactic war, if not to fill the ranks of established units on the battle field.

[Sandpit]

Mudhutwarrior, on 06 February 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

Its not premades making the game bad but the idea that pugs are just fill for matches. Of course several on the wrecking crew want you to believe we think "premades are evil" but that is stupid like "guns are evil." Its the way some premades operate that is the problem in game and we pugs refer to them as stompers.

I've posted several of your quotes in other threads that beg to differ. How about you stop making blanket statements then? Not all 4mans are created equally. Not all 12mans are stompers and ggclose crowds, not all pugs are noobs or anti-social.

[Flying Blind]

Never mind the fact that most games have a premade 4-man or two on each side and are only unbalanced in other ways.
I would love for PGI to put voice comms into the game but I don't think they will anytime soon maybe even never.
Some teams try to exploit for profit, some teams also try to hack. Neither of these are the majority though. The pug vs premade argument is invalid until we can drop premade 12 man groups into pigs again. Then you will have something to cry about , maybe.

Edited by Flying Blind, 06 February 2014 - 09:44 PM.

[Sandpit]

Flying Blind, on 06 February 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

I would love for PGI to put voice comms into the game

Me too
with a mute option though

[Asakara]

Roadbeer, on 06 February 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

Ok, explain to me what the role is of a solo Lone Wolf mercenary, in a galactic war, if not to fill the ranks of established units on the battle field.

From what I have read, that is exactly their purpose.. They are to be gap fillers when there aren't enough players of a given faction or faction allied player-run-unit to make a 12 man team.

[Roadbeer]

Asakara, on 06 February 2014 - 08:32 PM, said:

From what I have read, that is exactly their purpose.. They are to be gap fillers when there aren't enough players of a given faction or faction allied player-run-unit to make a 12 man team.

Exactly, this is just something that MHW can't seem to wrap his brain around.
Lone Wolf, unaligned pilots are filler in Community Warfare.
This is how it's going to break down.
Premade groups <12
Solo faction players will fill holes
Lone Wolfs will fill remaining holes.

Don't like it, pick a house or join a merc corp.

[Flying Blind]

Any time voice chat is placed in a game a mute or ignore button is a must

[Gruinhardt]

Mudhutwarrior, on 06 February 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

Its not premades making the game bad but the idea that pugs are just fill for matches. Of course several on the wrecking crew want you to believe we think "premades are evil" but that is stupid like "guns are evil." Its the way some premades operate that is the problem in game and we pugs refer to them as stompers.

Wait a second. I have played over 3600 matches, most of them, pug. Never, in any match has someone refer to premades as "stompers". I can't remember the term "stomper" used in any text. The "we" must refer to you and the mouse in your pocket. This is no doubt a term "you" use after a loss.

Edited by Gruinhardt, 07 February 2014 - 06:07 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sandpit, on 06 February 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

I've posted several of your quotes in other threads that beg to differ. How about you stop making blanket statements then? Not all 4mans are created equally. Not all 12mans are stompers and ggclose crowds, not all pugs are noobs or anti-social.

I'm a PUG that joined a premade that still PUGs. I defy the pigeon hole of either side of the argument. An my stats show that PUG or Premade Elo seems to be keeping us fairly where we belong, depending on the weapons we chose and style we use.

[SI The Joker]

I've never heard of the term "stomper"... just throwing that out there.

I pug 95% (more like 100% lately) of my time playing this game, and I assure you I am not a newbie or antisocial. I simply don't have a unit and when I'm grinding out mechs like I am right now, I don't want to ruin some tryhard's group by running my silly Wolverine test configs.

I find it funny that this discussion is still raging on. Groups/pugs/premades/coms are not the issue. The issue is the sheer difference in tonnage that enters matches. Tonnage, when piloted by a lesser pilot can easily overcome skill.

I hate to be that guy... but we've been told weight matching will come... so all I (we) can do is hope for that.