511 replies to this topic

[Iskareot]

So what would happen if pugs actually could fight their equal other solo players and premades had to fight their own equal premades?

What would be so bad about that balance of play?

Obvious pros are equal or at least MORE balance then we have now based on logic....

But would the matches go longer? Would the pugs be mad that we were more or less organized?

Would the premades be mad they could not farm the pugs? OR that they would have balance forced on them?

Why is this still not in the game? NOBODY should lose any options.. make that clear.. both sides should be able to keep their fun. But shouldn't new people and current players have a choice of the way to drop to help balance the matches?

What is so wrong about this? Not enough people? (IF this Is the case we have bigger issues).

Edited by Iskareot, 25 January 2014 - 06:33 PM.

[BlackIronTarkus]

Groups would go extinct...

[Mudhutwarrior]

I agree but if the base is as small as I think it is it could be bad on everyone. Now when you say that on any other thread the same people tell you tour wrong and its growing. If it is growing then I agree it would be great. I think ingame voip would at least give pugs, noobs and casuals a chance in the meantime. It certainly will let us help the noobs better in match.

[Thanatos676]

Yes, good idea, lets segregate an already niche game's player base even more by making PUGs and premade's play in separate queues. All this would do is make queue times take even longer, increase the fail to find match rate and make the game less fun. How else can you improve your skills if your not cutting your teeth on people who are better skilled/ More coordinated then you?

Edited by Thanatos676, 25 January 2014 - 05:34 PM.

[FupDup]

Personally I'd just prefer for Elo to match a bit more closely so that 1-2 year veterans and LORDS never end up in the same matches as first-day cadets using 3PV and firing ML at targets 800 meters away. I wouldn't mind pug/premade split queues at all, it's just that I think player skill matching is more important than if somebody is in a premade or not.

[Sandpit]

Wonder why no one else has ever posted about this? This is a very important issue.

Keep blaming premades guys. Keep jumping up and down and sayin they're the reason you lose. It's ok. he reasons splitting the queues would be bad has been discussed in the 20 or so other threads about this. Maybe you should go read them

[Screech]

FupDup, on 25 January 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

Personally I'd just prefer for Elo to match a bit more closely so that 1-2 year veterans and LORDS never end up in the same matches as first-day cadets using 3PV and firing ML at targets 800 meters away.

Too bad they are doing the exact opposite. Not a good sign.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Sandpit, on 25 January 2014 - 05:40 PM, said:

Wonder why no one else has ever posted about this? This is a very important issue.

Keep blaming premades guys. Keep jumping up and down and sayin they're the reason you lose. It's ok. he reasons splitting the queues would be bad has been discussed in the 20 or so other threads about this. Maybe you should go read them

Dance around the point all you want. Even the most basic military experince would show that communications and speedy intell win campaigns. To deny that is beyond ludicrous. To ignore it entirely shows another motivation.
Premades are just that. Thay are not " evil premades" just groups with one very distinct advantage on the field.
Next in line the majority have familiarity with their comrades and can anticipate their moves with time in the field.
You guys never adress that but instead make up "evil premades" or attack the poster directly on arbitrary facts instead.
Try just once arguing any of the points I made above.

Separated Is not the answer if it would increase wait times. Neither you or I know if that is case. Only PGI does.

So base this argument on facts instead of fantasy speculation.

[Sandpit]

Mudhutwarrior, on 25 January 2014 - 05:58 PM, said:

Dance around the point all you want. Even the most basic military experince would show that communications and speedy intell win campaigns. To deny that is beyond ludicrous. To ignore it entirely shows another motivation.
Premades are just that. Thay are not " evil premades" just groups with one very distinct advantage on the field.
Next in line the majority have familiarity with their comrades and can anticipate their moves with time in the field.
You guys never adress that but instead make up "evil premades" or attack the poster directly on arbitrary facts instead.
Try just once arguing any of the points I made above.

Separated Is not the answer if it would increase wait times. Neither you or I know if that is case. Only PGI does.

So base this argument on facts instead of fantasy speculation.

I have, in many of the numerous other threads that already exist covering this exact subject. Post there if you'd like to continue debating it

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

where's this 'premades farm pugs' thing coming from? That can't be the accepted meta, because everyone hates pugs and pugstomping. People only go premade versus pug because it's a pain to wrangle 12 people most of the time.

[wanderer]

Thanatos676, on 25 January 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:

Yes, good idea, lets segregate an already niche game's player base even more by making PUGs and premade's play in separate queues. All this would do is make queue times take even longer, increase the fail to find match rate and make the game less fun. How else can you improve your skills if your not cutting your teeth on people who are better skilled/ More coordinated then you?

How do you consider 0-12 pugstomps as improving the PUG's skill at anything except becoming a better target to your premades?

MWO skill levels only improve in team play. PUGs are not team play. Ergo, take the premade out of the PUG. If there aren't enough premades to allow for steady play, it's because MWO has been allowed to degenerate into a lousy game, and a -huge- part of that is the abominable matchmaker and pug-stomping.

Bonus: You may find to your horror that people PREFER to PUG, because they don't want to be l33t Mechwarriors, they just want to run around blowing up giant stompy robots. Or, you may find that we get easier MM's done when you're looking for 6 groups of 4 people vs. random ELO jibber-jabber that still gets us 11-man drops even in the pits of PUG ELO Hell.

[Thanatos676]

wanderer, on 25 January 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

How do you consider 0-12 pugstomps as improving the PUG's skill at anything except becoming a better target to your premades?

MWO skill levels only improve in team play. PUGs are not team play. Ergo, take the premade out of the PUG. If there aren't enough premades to allow for steady play, it's because MWO has been allowed to degenerate into a lousy game, and a -huge- part of that is the abominable matchmaker and pug-stomping.

Bonus: You may find to your horror that people PREFER to PUG, because they don't want to be l33t Mechwarriors, they just want to run around blowing up giant stompy robots. Or, you may find that we get easier MM's done when you're looking for 6 groups of 4 people vs. random ELO jibber-jabber that still gets us 11-man drops even in the pits of PUG ELO Hell.

Even when i'm in a 4man with a lance full of unit members i only see 12-0 stomps rarely. Most rounds end up at 12-8 through 11.

I would debate the assumption that your skills only improve in team play. I had a friend who only played in PUGs and after learning the basics he was able to quickly master the light mech roles and move on to being a great pilot able to dance with the fatlas crowd all day in a light. He never joined my unit or any others.

If people prefer to PUG, and not even try to play as a team in a TEAM PLAY ORIENTED GAME. More power to you, but stop trying to segregate the player base just because you want a easier match all the time. That is what this boils down to.

"The Premades are too hard so nerf them" Everytime i see a post like this, that is what i am getting from reading between the lines. If the game is too hard, gritch at devs to make it easier instead of learning..

[Sandpit]

Thanatos676, on 25 January 2014 - 11:54 PM, said:

Even when i'm in a 4man with a lance full of unit members i only see 12-0 stomps rarely. Most rounds end up at 12-8 through 11.

I would debate the assumption that your skills only improve in team play. I had a friend who only played in PUGs and after learning the basics he was able to quickly master the light mech roles and move on to being a great pilot able to dance with the fatlas crowd all day in a light. He never joined my unit or any others.

If people prefer to PUG, and not even try to play as a team in a TEAM PLAY ORIENTED GAME. More power to you, but stop trying to segregate the player base just because you want a easier match all the time. That is what this boils down to.

"The Premades are too hard so nerf them" Everytime i see a post like this, that is what i am getting from reading between the lines. If the game is too hard, gritch at devs to make it easier instead of learning..

[Ghogiel]

FupDup, on 25 January 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

Personally I'd just prefer for Elo to match a bit more closely so that 1-2 year veterans and LORDS never end up in the same matches as first-day cadets using 3PV and firing ML at targets 800 meters away. I wouldn't mind pug/premade split queues at all, it's just that I think player skill matching is more important than if somebody is in a premade or not.

Premaded up with a few players last night and the only players online that pushed us was LORDS. Lost about 3 matches in a 5hr session. Oddly one of those losses was when we were stacked hard with an SJR premade on our team too... in a high Elo game you don't expect PUG tactics like that XD.

Edited by Ghogiel, 26 January 2014 - 12:07 AM.

[Deathlike]

Ghogiel, on 26 January 2014 - 12:05 AM, said:

Premaded up with a few players last night and the only players online that pushed us was LORDS. Lost about 3 matches in a 5hr session. Oddly one of those losses was when we were stacked hard with an SJR premade on our team too... in a high Elo game you don't expect PUG tactics like that XD.

Too bad by the time you were in the 12-man, the team degenerated into the equivalent of 12-solo PUGs.

I was bad, and felt bad.





I'll admit that every single time I see the Lords (both on and not on my team, I do have the urge to step up my game).

[Khobai]

Quote

Yes, good idea, lets segregate an already niche game's player base even more by making PUGs and premade's play in separate queues.

pugs vs premades isnt balanced. so yes it is better to segregate the player base in order to balance games better.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Thanatos676, on 25 January 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:

Yes, good idea, lets segregate an already niche game's player base even more by making PUGs and premade's play in separate queues. All this would do is make queue times take even longer, increase the fail to find match rate and make the game less fun. How else can you improve your skills if your not cutting your teeth on people who are better skilled/ More coordinated then you?

this argument loses validity when the casual players who prefer to solo-queue leave the game in droves because they feel stomped upon.

Don't get me wrong, I have argued over and over that this is a team game and anyone refusing to play it thusly is doing themselves a disservice. But the fact remains that there's no objective evidence at this point that ANY of the playerbase is privy to that shows that splitting the queue as OP recommends would be any more harmful to our niche playerbase than driving off people in droves with the current system (which punishes not only solo artists, but as Roadbeer always reminds us, any organization of friends that wants to play in groups of more than four).

[627]

I I don't get all this premade hating... everything is always black and white, no grey. If you group up, you're always a leet 4-man "farming pugs" or you're the poor pug lone wolf, killed by evil forces with no chance of survival.

Seperating the queues would only result in solo sync drops because some people...let's call them just "friends" want to play together, even if their "skill" is average.

And a word for success rate - I play alot in 2-3 man groups (because we just can't find enough people in our TS group) and we win as much as we lose. Some days we get our scrap handed to us that it gets emberassing.

And even if we get some tryhards from the public TS servers and form a 4man it's no pug stomp. To be true, win/loss doesn't really change.
And this is because a premade is not a premade. You can't compare a trained team who play the hardest meta to win with a bunch of guys grouping up who level their last mechs.

[Jalik]

the number of players really could be a problem. we don't really know the numbers but PGI seems hesitant to separate the queues (they also were after introduction 3rd person view) so maybe they see a problem here. I also agree that playing against well co-ordinated groups every now and then can only improve your gameplay ... if you don't get frustrated when its happening all night and finally rage quit. After all, PUG players should not just serve as cannon fodder for the premades to provide fun just for them. Eventually, with growing player base (maybe somewhere in community warefare) they should consider to add an option to separate the queues. Maybe this is in the works anyways for leages and stuff. who knows.

As already mentioned, premade sometimes just means some friends casually playing together. they don't want to get stomped either.

Edited by Jalik, 26 January 2014 - 03:00 AM.

[Budor]

The player base is to small there is NO other valid argument supporting mixed queues.